"BGK/BGO" Topic

I have been looking at doing some 6mm gaming for a while; lots of tanks! I have been hearing good things about BGK and BGO, but I have been wondering how well they play with 6mm? Is it a suitable size for the rules? I play Rapid Fire in 15mm, so have that Battalion/Company level covered. What level is BGK/BGO based on? Any opinions on this would be helpful! Thanks in advance!

In my opinion BGK/BGO is not a "lots of tanks" game. If that's what you're after you're better off with FOW.

Well, according to it's author it was initially designed SPECIFICALLY for large tank battles. That it works as an infantry heavy game just makes it even better and is why I like it so bloody much.

Abwehr-- many guys on The Guild play in smaller scales and it works just fine for that. I play BGK in 15mm with no change in ranges and it's terrific, so I am sure 6mm would work equally well (although I think they use centimeters instead of inches).

Jerry

Yup we play it in 6mm…

link

It will do big tank games fine, but its all about combined arms really. Though my favourite games with the system have been largely infantry affairs.

The tank comment was a bit of a glib comment TBH, I am more interested in combined arms, if I wanted purely tanks I would take Ken's advice and play FOW. Which I don't want to.

I have read a little about BGK and what intrigues me is the fact you don't know when the game will end. What level of command is represented by BGK?

Piers, that board and the figures look amazing! A real inspiration!

BGK can be played at squad, platoon, company, or battalion level. It just depends on how many points you want to play, how much stuff you own, and how much time you have to play a game. Battalion games can go a day or two if Piers' big bashes are any indication and my memory serves. We have generally played platoon games and they have lasted about 3 to 4 hours.

Jerry, how many players do you have for a platoon game?

And just got my shipping notice for overlord and mini rule book. I hope it is hear on Friday.

Matthew

We had 4 or 5, I think. A platoon level game can include a LOT of stuff!

Wow, OK, so it more like a low level command game then Nazrat? I had the impression that it was larger in command scale, I'm not sure where I picked that up from!

Thanks. That works great for us. Some rules just don't seem to handle more than two players a side.

Matthew,
All of ours have had multiple players and everybody had plenty to do, unless of course your orders roll was for crap. Then it was still fun to see the guys on the same side get to discuss what they WOULD move.

Abwehr-- yes, it is Battalion and lower. It is not a Command Decision-type game where a stand equals a platoon or anything like that. It is a 1/1 game where a figure or a vehicle represents one figure or vehicle.

Jerry

We have had success using the KG/BG system with multi-players by giving each player a d6 and 1 commander and letting each player roll their own PIPs.

This worked better than one central commander rolling for PIPs and then handing them out (takes too long).

Still having a few problems with different sized units for activation. In particular separately German MGs from their squads is a great disadvantage.
TomT

While I dont want to dwell on discussing KGN (its a different system in alot of ways to Battlegroup) I'd like to respond to what Thomas sees as a 'great disadvantage' for the Germans.

I see it as the Germans big advantage.

The Germans have their squads split into a rifle team and an MG Team. This allows them to provide a base of fire from MG Teams to cover their rifle teams.

In BGK a Russian squad operates as a single entity, while a German squad is split into two.

From the point of view of the command system, where you must pay command actions to activate a unit, this at first seems a disadvantage, but it isnt when you consider that the Germans forces are invariably composed of a far smaller amount of troops than the enemy and generally get more 'Officers' that give bonus command actions each turn. This means they have less units on which to spend their activations.

In terms of projected firepower, the Soviets get 9 dice when using 'aimed' fire. This again at first glance seems better, but the Germans may use the two teams of their squad to project up to 13 dice. This is split because of the two units and again is advantageous as it can force sequential morale tests on an enemy unit when they fire or one can use its fire to pin an enemy while the other fires to cause casualties.

This makes the Germans a far more flexible force to play with.

In BGO this is different again as British forces have the chance to split off Bren Teams and some US units units have their Rifle Squads split into two fire teams.

These are good points but we quickly discovered the key was to use the large allied squads to pound the German MG teams. They are small and quickly disappear ending any German advantage. You only have to kill 3 guys to get rid of them and give the Germans a morale chit.

The Germans get more orders (though this is unrelated to squad organization) but they do not get twice as many orders but need twice as many orders to get full firepower out of their squads (or move a squad for that matter).

It makes the Germans less manuverable compared with the allies.

I'm glad you have at least split the US squads as this will really help esp with more equal numbers of orders.

TomT

Tom,

Dont forget those smaller German three-man teams are harder to spot and generally have better morale making them harder to pin too…

So its not so cut and dried.

But as I say, BGO is not the same game as KGN…

Re the separate MG team issue I am considering allowing the German MGs to be part of full section if the both use the same Order ie same move or fire order etc but if they want to do separate actions then its separate orders. This will hopefully give Germans more flexibility (at 'cost' in orders) but not see the MG teams targeted to oblivion (in few games I have played this seems to happen in relentless fashion)
Not offay enough with rule system to know if this will work and/or schew others rules ?
Maybe just as an 'optional' type…..em……option

Cheers

What basing is KGN/BGO ?

Any basing you want really…

Piers:

Let me say right off that I greatly respect and appreciate your reponses and willingness to discuss aspects of the game with players.

I'm sure we occassionaly forgot the -1 spot mod as I remember it came up part way through the first game. (We played two infantry heavy games and switched sides but with no effect on outcome.) But even so as Sgt Steiner has pointed out targeting the small German MG teams is relentless and they fold long before Russian squads (the new and reasonable rule that Area Fire can inflict 1 casualty really works against three man teams).

We plan to offer the Germans the option to field the teams and rifle squad as a single squad (which is the correct historical organization).

Will retain the option to independantly deploy MGs and look forward to seeing if the allies also split squads.

You may wish to make this an official option as you may get some blow back on this issue as more and more people play the game (a good thing of course).

TomT

So, in war, would you not relentlessly target an enemies Machine Gun teams? I know I would… :)

It doesnt seem to be an issue for players Tom so far. It wasnt really in KGN either from what I remember.

Others have a different perception as evidenced by the comments on The Guild where you posted as well Tom, so I doubt it will be an option you will see offered 'officially' Im afraid.

Area Fire only causes a casualty if the unit rolls a '1' for its cover save. So not a great deal of that happening that often.

The problem you will find with allowing Germans to group together is that they will have an excess of activations as their forces are generally far smaller than the Russians in BGK. They will also have less chance to inflict sequential morale tests (important when units have been shot up a bit) and not be able to use the MG team to perform area fire to pin an opponent and then follow up with a rifle team to attack the pinned unit.

Just to note, the Germans, by being split in two teams get four chances to fire. This means twice as many spotting attempts as a single Russian squad, meaning the Germans have more chance of being able to use Aimed Fire. A single squad will only get two chances. This will make a big difference as regardless of firepower, if you fail those two spotting rolls, you cant fire. With the Germans with split teams they have twice as many chances to spot as the Russians…

I think what we have is the right historical organisation, with the MG Team able to be used as a base of fire for the rifle team to manoeuvre with covering fire.

Of course, feel free to play it how you want mate and do feel free to comment, I have no issues with anyone criticising the rules, its all good for discussion. People invariably want different things from games and sometimes things dont tally with ones own personal opinion.

For those interested some other commentary here from other players;

link

Cheers,

Piers

Piers:

Thanks for the insight and I've decided to keep trying with the original organizations despite some friction from players.

Targeting MGs is quite legit but when you target the allies they have lots of spare men to abosorb the hits, the Germans must take all the hits out of the small 3 man team (Same issue for the occasional "1" on Cover saves v. Area fire.)

Yes we realize the German advantage of being to activate twice (though at a cost of 2X PIPs.) That's why everyone pours fire into the small teams to quickly get rid of them to end this option and the bulk of the German Firepower.

I'll try to get everyone to stick to the basic format, these were infantry heavy games (I had some new players) where this issue comes to the fore. But I would keep an eye on this issue as game play expands past your core group.

TomT

Only played a couple of games, but we had the German squad as a single coherent unit. This was to make it less confusing for us usual FOW players.

Of course it means a German squad pours on the firepower but in turn fire and maneouvre is more limited.

We also ignored ammo rules in order to focus on getting to know the rules.

I don't think these sort of house rules break the game and the game seemed to cope with it far better than more "complicated" rulesets ala FOW where house rules can have unexpected synergistic impacts that cause imbalances.

Game 3 next week!

while one could get away with it, I don't think it's most suitable for a "hordes of tanks" game. Neither is FoW (altho it is _more_ suitable thank either BG).

I'd go up one level to the many battalion-level games and see what you think. There are several of good repute. One local group here plays Panzerblitz in 6mm and seems to have a lot of fun doing it.

Good luck!

Dunno… BG works fine with hordes of tanks (though depends what you define a horde!)…

warwickkinrade.blogspot.ie

at end of the day do you really want loads of tanks? Nothing looks most unrealistic than a tank park near the base line with just loads of tanks IMO.

A better game is obtained through a good mix of unit types including tanks of course.

A better game for you and me, maybe, but apparently a lot of guys really like putting that many tanks on the table. If they are having fun who are we to say that a different way is "better"?

Jerry

"I think what we have is the right historical organisation"

What you have is the right historical organization, but a system which, under certain circumstances, penalizes someone for using it.

"would you not relentlessly target an enemies Machine Gun teams?"

The problem is that MG teams intrinsic to large squads can never be targeted separately, while German ones always can be.

German squads should be able to act (and be targeted) in all ways as one unit, but with the option to be split into two units when desired – using 1/2 an order for each team (with excess halves dropped and not carried on), instead of coming up with ways to artificially inflate the number of orders they have in order to make up for having more units. That also would cut down on the Germans having excess orders to use on other units when their infantry is not heavily involved.

But fixing those problems won't fix poor tactics on the Players' part. If you get into a straight on firefight without adequate preparation or opportunity to maneuver, you are going to take a lot of losses.

Piers,
Regarding your post from 22-APR-2013, any idea where they got the 6mm sheep from?
It's a serious question, I would like some for Tunisia, but to answer the question on all your minds, yes… I am Welsh.
Cheers,
Bertie

As a fellow Welshman, I resent the self-deprecating and steretypical remarks regarding our alleged national traits!

And my collection of model sheep in four different scales has absolutely no bearing on this discussion…

Number 6,

No other squads have a intrinsic MG Team, only the British have the option to detach the Bren team. All other weapons only add one dice, hence why the German squad weapon adding 5 or 6 dice is a big weapon… also the 3 man team is also harder to spot. German squads also get four shots, instead of two with the split allow either pin and assault tactics or more chance at causing enemy units targetted to fail morale.

Actually, the Germans are quite a force to be reckoned with.

Your opinion is it penalises, I disagree as it allows maximum flexibility, concealment and hitting power with a German force, that when used well, is very difficult to face.

Or maybe im just lucky with my Jerries! ;)

@Bertie: probably from Z scale model railroad supplies. Z is nominally 1:220, so a good bit bigger than 6mm 1/285 or 1/300.

Since I have BGO, the basic maneuver element is the squad, individual MG/Mortar/AT gun, or individual tank. running a company plus like I do in Flames seems to be really stretching the upper bounds, at least for someone who doesn't play much. I'm sure Piers can probably handle a battalion per player.

I like that there is a certain minimum amount of infantry required in any game, and that infantry gives you access to different supporting squads than tanks do. I also like that you can buy pre-registered artillery targets.

I dont play much over two or three platoons most of the time, fits nicely on my table and an evenings gaming.

Bertie , I will ask my chum where he got the sheep.

Peirs:

You must be lucky with the Germans. Just had another group that I recommend the game too come back with the same feedback.

German MG teams prime targets, easy to kill, order intensive, and back breaking for German morale. They found German squads clumsy as it took twice as many orders to get them to do anything.

(They of course blame me for recommending the game…)

Make the squad split optional. Those who feels its better can use it and those who don't aren't forced to do so.

TomT

I dont know what else I can say Tom, that i havent said already on this thread.

Certainly its not been an issue within the playtesters or players on our forum in the year since this topic started.

With regards your other group, I cant say much as I dont know any detail of their game. How many games did they play? Did they get the core rules correct? Did they use area fire to pin targets and then aimed fire or assault the pinned enemies? Did they understand the harder to spot modifiers for small teams? Do they understand the benefit of sequential morale tests on a unit? Do they realise that a German platoon can fire twice as many times as say a Russian one and the consequent morale effects you can induce? Where they playing with correct order dice? Did they make correct use of artillery support? What game did they play previously? Did they make use of terrain?

Indeed the US infantry have split teams, to allow them to fire and maneuver, and no one has even commented on that. Perhaps its just German players who find the Germans not as uber as they wish, though in Overlord they can add a second MG to their squads… and thats a scary amount of firepower.

It certainly wont be changed as thats how we want the mechanic to work. Yes Germans take more skill to use, but that easiky mastered with a few games and when the subtleties of the rules become apparent. As I said before, try it in your group, im sure German players will love it! But for Warwick and myself, and it seems the players on our forum at least, its not something that seems to be an issue.

Im afraid we may have to agree to disagree. Or pop over to Ireland for a game with me!

All the best,

Piers.

Irregular miniatures do sheep in 6mm if I recall correctly. I think Baccus do some as well.