"1/6000 vs 1/3000 on hexes" Topic

Having now had another close look at some Figurehead 1/6000 ships today, I admit that they are very small, even the battleships and cruisers. I cannot fault the quality of the castings but it has made me wonder if I really want to go down the 1/6000 route.

I haven't decided on any particular rules, but I do want to use hex-based ones and to play on a 4' x 6' table. I've just bought a cloth with 2" hexes which could accommodate 1/6000 ships in a single hex or 1/3000 ships over two hexes. This need not affect the ground scale as I can still measure in single hexes from, say, the bow of each ship.

Obviously the mechanics of the game will change between ships occupying 1 or 2 hexes but I don't yet have a lot of experience of hex games to appreciate just how.

I know this very question has been flogged before, but any feedback with particular reference to my planned use of a hex playing area would be appreciated.

My only experience of WW2 naval has been a very positive one using Avalon Hills Bismarck game, that has three sections. The campaign game, the basic combat and the advanced combat. The latter uses counters that are close to 1/4800 scale. However, the basic game really is quite basic but it uses a grid of hexes. In the area you have you could use this system and use 1/2400 on 4" hexes if you wanted to. That written the basic combat part of the game really needs the campaign setting to make it come alive. You could use the advanced combat system as a stand alone game.

I think before you start buying miniatures I'd decide exactly what you want to do first then go from there. I'd start by identifying a rules system that you can use or adapt to hex based play. Once you know the requirements of the rules that will determine how suitable 2" hexes are for what you wish to do. Without those decisions it's a very difficult question to answer precisely.

I agree that whilst the 1/6000 models are well done I just feel they are too small for me. I like 1/4800 but love 1/2400 although with the latter I can't help but think space would become an issue.

You might pic up a Naval game from Avalanche Press. That would give you counters for all the ships so you could play around with hexes, rules etc. Then decide on ship scale.

One thing to think about (and the reason I went with 1/6000 besides cost) is in 1/3000 ranges can look very compressed. I've seen 1/2400 naval battles and they look like they're taking place on a lake….

For what it's worth, I have some additional thoughts for you:

1) Ground Scale: Note that, in general, any rule set can be used with any scale, regardless of the designer's original intent. Take General Quarters, for example, where the rules specify "inches", with a standard scale of 4" = 1000 yards. I have always ignored this. Instead, I translate rule distances from inches into 1000 yard increments (either in my head, or by re-doing the charts and tables). This in turn allows me to use any ground scale I want. So, on your 4-by-6-foot table, you could try using 1" = 1000 yards. If this doesn't give you sufficient room for a fleet action, you could try ¾" = 1000 yards. To handle measurement, either use hexes of the appropriate size, or mark up a small tape measure with a permanent marker. Note that you can periodically shift the entire battle back towards the center of the table.

2) Model Scale: Now the above bears on your choice of model scale as well, as you will have to decide if you want your ships crammed closely together or not. For a 4x6 table, I would use 1/6000. I have played 1/2400 WWII battles on my 7-by-8-foot game table, but even on that comparatively large surface, I have only done it with small battles. In your other thread, you mentioned WWII in the Med, which implies large fleet actions.

3) Hex Grids: I am a fan of hex grids for miniatures, and have used them for land, air, and naval games. A hex grid can be used with pretty much any rule set, once you have translated the distances in the charts and tables to yards/meters (which is what the game designer should have done in the first place…). If you use a non-hex playing surface, use a custom-marked measuring device to determine ranges, per my previous advice. With respect to your purchased cloth, I would suggest that you make your own. That way you can pick the best color (I suggest a lighter color, as in the other thread), and can size the hexes so that each hex is 1000 yards. The easiest way to do this is to color the playing surface first, and then indicate hexes with a dot in the center of each, with the color of the dot only slightly different from the background. The idea is to make the dots hard to see from a distance. Make every 10th dot in the grid different, so you can easily count distances (i.e. 10 … 20 …21 …22 … 23 gives 23,000 yards). To position the dots precisely, you can make a template on your PC, print it, and punch out the center of each hex with a pencil. The holes which result can then function as a template for marking the hex dots on your custom-made game cloth.

MH

Thanks to all for a lot of sound and useful advice. The thing that best fits my gaming opportunities and seems to suit my club companions is a multiplayer pitched battle based on historical OOBs. I think the WW2 Anglo-Italian clashes in the Med will suit that very well, but I'm not against branching out into other things later.

I have a couple of parameters. Firstly, I'm a late but convinced convert to grid and hex games as I tried to explain here link. Secondly I want a game that will play on a 6' x 4' area which is the space I have at home.

I'm not fixated on any particular set of rules and having absorbed earlier threads about the ease of converting rules to hexes, I think the first thing is to get the ship scale, base sizes and hex sizes right.

After further comments and thought I'm persuaded that 1/6000 ships and 2" hexes was the right way to go. It occurred to me that large numbers of hexes might negate the ease of measuring by hexes, so I am very grateful for the idea of marking every 10th hex.

The hex cloth I bought is rather dark and vivid but it was easier to buy than make. There was a display game using one at Salute and they appear to have sprayed the cloth with something white which lightened it and reduced the contrast.

I would suggest looking at 1/4800 scale miniatures. I found 1/6000 too small for my eyesight and tastes while 1/3000 models began to crowd each other a bit though I prefer them visually. There are only a couple sources in this scale but you can do most any battle though you may have to settle for substituting a different class of vessel in some instances.

Sources are Mick Yarrow miniatures in the UK link and Shapeways. Of particular importance on Shapeways is a designer titled Tiny Thingamajigs

link

There is a 1/4800 Yahoo group also which can be very helpful.

link

Looking at one of the Avalanche Press boardgames for the Theater you are interested in is an excellent idea.

Some of those 1/4800 ships look very nice indeed, but the range is currently more limited and it would push me up to 3" bases/hexes, and a 50% loss of table space.

If you "can't see" 1/6000, then you won't be able to see 1/4800 either. IMHO, most people who say they can't see the small scales really are referring to their displeasure with the visual presentation and viewing distance. Many 1/6000 games use a very dark blue cloth, and rectangular ship model bases painted in a different color. From a distance, this can look like a bunch of dominoes or playing cards scattered over a table. In such cases, the extra contrasting colors and shapes distract attention from the shapes of the models themselves. Of course, one can train oneself to overcome this sort of distraction, and see the desired scene "in the mind's eye", but a newcomer hasn't had a chance to do this yet.

The above is one of the reasons why I prefer a light-colored table, adjustable directional lighting (gives shadows), lack of (visible) bases, dynamic ship wakes, and use of "scale color" on the models (where dark/saturated colors are slightly lightened from full scale). This allows me to "see" the small models better.

MH

I also play in 1/6000 scale WW2 and I am curious about playing on a hexed based mat. I was inspired by the positive experiences that I had with CY6!.

Although I haven't found a set of rules that was specifically designed for hex based systems. You can always adapt board games. I am curious which rule set you try out.

As for 1/6000 vs 1/3000, I was convinced to go with the smaller scale when I saw side by side comparisons and the 1/6000 had as much detail. If I were to go any bigger than 1/6000 I would go with 1/2400 GHQ ships which are gorgeous. But I find that my brain adjusts for the scale quite well and I can play games on my dining room table without problems.

Well, if you stick initially with your 2" hexes on a 4x6-foot table, then you probably would have each hex represent 2000 yards. This may require some minor game chart reinterpretation, depending on the rule set.

Also, if the 6 hex sides make ship positioning look too regular, go with 12-point facing, as in the old SPI board game "Air War". With this scheme, each hex corner defines an additional direction.

MH

I've downloaded a demo copy of 'Grand Fleets' mj12games.com/grandfleets and may try that. I see it uses hexes representing 2000 yards.