"New ACW Ruleset from John Hill?" Topic

Reported here: link

I saw him talk about these a while back. As far as i could tell it was Johnny Reb III adapted to a new ground scale.

Not real clear from the post about the basing. I was really disappointed that JR3 kept the same basing system as JR2. This is a real deal breaker for me. If there are variable base sizes and numbers of figs per base then I will pass on the new rules.

The post also talks about "dumbing down the rules" I don't think it is dumbing down to make the charge sequence simpler and therefore more playable.

We have been trying out "Mr Lincoln's War" as an alternative to Johnny Reb and so far so good. Standard number of figures per base. Simple mechanics and you can actually finish a game at one sitting.

The post also says there will be more artillery types. JR2 had just about every gun in the inventory on the chart. That was one of the best features of JR2 which was water downed in JR3. With JR3 John changed everything I liked and kept everything I didn't like. So I am not terribly excited about these new rules.

More detail? It already takes too long to do a game because of the detail. To do a larger scale means you need less detail. Why keep the regiment as the basic unit? To fight large battles I want to be be pushing brigades around and commanding Corps.

Where does he get the idea that 20 years later we can handle and want more detailed game rules. Am 50 and would be happy with one base being a brigade and commanding 6-8 of those units as a Corps commander. I could care less if my men are armed with Springfields, Enfields or Lorenz, they are all rifled muskets. Nor do I care if my artillery is Parrots or Ordnance rifles.

I remember playing JR I way back in the past when I had all day to play. Now at the 3 hour mark my buttom starts to hurt from sitting, my attention wonders to what is for dinner and I get irritated when the idiot across from me can't decide what to do after watching me move my figures for 5 minutes. Give me something fun, simple and painless. Not a rule set needing 10 dice rolls to see if one artillery piece was loaded right.

I too would like simpler rules but IMHO the ACW is a regimental war. You lose a lot at the brigade level. You can do regiments without all the complicated rules.

Johnny Reb works better when someone who really has the rules down is refereeing the game. The problem with that is you become too dependent on a few people and you never really learn the rules. We tend to get bogged down when charges takes place. OMG the entire game comes to a halt and it takes 45 minutes just to do charges.

On the other hand there are a lot of players who think they have the rules memorized and come to find out later that he only thought he knew the rules. So we spend a half hour looking for one specific rule. My old JR2 rules were so marked up and worn that they finally fell apart.

As I recall each regiment was to be two bases. All bases would be the same size. At 1"=100 yards I'm guessing your average regiment would have a frontage of about 150 yards:

250 files at 22" per file=5500 inches = 152.8 yards

So that would mean two bases, each 3/4" wide. I'm guessing they would have to be 20mm wide by at least 15mm deep just to have room to fit figures on them.

I don't know what kind of scenarios you guys are running, but I have never had a JR III game run more than 4 hours. Most finish much faster.

As with many here we played JRII for well over a decade then switched to JR3. JR3 had some nice changes to it and if you knew the rules the games went by pretty fast, except for the charge sequence which in my opinion was overwrought. The main problem was that it is one of those games that if you don't have the rules you're screwed. Guys who knew them could do all kinds of maneuvers/formation changes to place themselves at an advantage over those who didn't know the rules. As with most groups there's one or two guys who know the rules with the rest just there to play a game, any game. After awhile, there were so many complaints that we switched to F&F. Not sure if we'll go back.

I've just recently purchased JRIII.

The main problem I see with it is that it's just horribly organized. I'm not referring to the decision to lay out the rules in the perceived order of which rules are most commonly used as opposed to "chronological" order. I'm talking about the fact that rules relating to the same topic seem to be strewn about all over the book and terms are bandied about as if the reader is already familiar with them even though they're not clearly defined.

They really read like a document that was written for a group of guys "in the know" and who didn't need clear explication since they could just ask the author. That's great if you're in the gaming group, but frustrating for others.

They're just not up to today's standards for professional editing. I think they could do with a refresh and reorganization.

Oh yea, and what's with the basing?

I get the idea that units should consist of four bases regardless of the number of figures in the unit as a way to easily see 25% loss steps without use of rosters.

But why don't the rules just tell you how much frontage should be allowed per figure so you can arrange your basing to meet the four base per unit requirement? Instead they provide a confusing explanation of 3-figure bases, 4-figure bases, 5-figure bases.

You can get my Easy Civil War rules here, free:
link
Look under "Files." Your choice of format.

The basic unit is a brigade.

Know any like that where the main unit is a regiment? So far I can name MLW.

Ken:

I hear you on the basing. Guys who are really are into these rules; say that it is the best part of the rules?!

What will drive you crazy is painting some special unit like Wheat's Tigers and then have to paint several versions of the same unit on different size bases.

We had a guy here who played with cut out magnet bases and then cut out pieces to glue on the bottom of 20mm figure bases and put however many figures he needed on the base.

They kept falling off or when you picked one up by the figure (avoid that if you can) that one figure would come off in your hands. If you marked your units on the underside of the base, every time you looked all the figures would fall off. Plus the figures looked like they were wearing thick snowshoes. Not a very satisfying solution.

Try "Fields of Blue and Grey" for a simple regimental level game that looks like it will move pretty quickly. I haven't played them yet, but after digesting them I'm looking forward to giving them a go (with the inevitable house rule tweaks here and there):

web.295.ca/danabbott/fbg.html

Cheers,

Christopher

I too would like simpler rules but IMHO the ACW is a regimental war. You lose a lot at the brigade level. You can do regiments without all the complicated rules.

Have you ever played all 3 days of Gettysburg at the regimental level? Muti day battles like Chickamauga, 2nd Bull Run, or for sure the Seven Days would seem pretty difficult to re-fight at the regimental level. Even a single day battle like Antietam or Fredricksburg would be a tough one at regimental level.

Kim

I would use a Brigade level game if I wanted to do an entire battle such as Antietam, but most JR III scenarios break all the big battles into smaller bits that are a LOT of fun to play and don't take days to accomplish. See Scott Mingus's three excellent books on Gettysburg and Antietam for how it should be done.

"I hear you on the basing. Guys who are really are into these rules; say that it is the best part of the rules?!

I love JR III, but I have never thought (nor heard from any of the myriad fans of the game I have met) that that is anything but a logical way of showing troop strength and actual frontage. "Best part of the rules"? I think not.

"What will drive you crazy is painting some special unit like Wheat's Tigers and then have to paint several versions of the same unit on different size bases."

I had no problem with doing just that. But I love painting mass quantities… 8)=

"The main problem I see with it is that it's just horribly organized. I'm not referring to the decision to lay out the rules in the perceived order of which rules are most commonly used as opposed to "chronological" order. I'm talking about the fact that rules relating to the same topic seem to be strewn about all over the book and terms are bandied about as if the reader is already familiar with them even though they're not clearly defined."

Man, you said it! I tried to sell my copy after I read through it the first time. Nobody bought it so it remained on my shelf. Then I kept seeing all these great guys at all the HMGS cons playing the game and extolling it's virtues both in person and here on TMP. I figured that if all those fine fellows were so into the game there HAD to be something there so I pulled it out and began to read it in earnest. It took me two weeks of reading, re-reading, and asking questions on the interweb, but at the end of all that I was completely convinced and I've loved the system ever since.

But they SERIOUSLY need a re-write/reorganization!!

Jerry

I've been working for the last 15 years on a ground breaking set of rules that has regiments as the basic unit, however, it is largely a brigade based game. Charge rules are the crown jewels of the system.
A simple yet elegant way of resolveing the idea.

Sam Mustafas Longstreet will be with us soon….lots of chrome and will give ACW players lots of options.

link

Paul

Sam Mustafas Longstreet will be with us soon….lots of chrome and will give ACW players lots of options.

Doesn't look like re-fighting Chickamauga is an option. Also if I have to use cards to play, I'd rather play poker.

Kim

Dice are Ok but cards are not?
That makes no sense at all – they are both just ways of injecting a bit of randomness.

I have run numerous JRIII games in real time. 20 minutes a turn, and at conventions with help from an experienced commander overall on each side they play pretty darn fast.

VR
James Mattes

Bring on Longstreet! If it's even half as entertaining as Maurice it will be a terrific game. And the cards definitely add to the fun and are a great way of simulating the fog of war.

I concur with those who said they liked JR2 but were less excited about JR3. I still prefer and play JR2. If the first impressions are correct then in this new game each regiment becomes a single stand.

As some have mentioned in JR2 you end up being somewhat confined and it becomes difficult or impractical to do large battles in their entirety. This is true. That is a compromise in the scope based on the chosen scale and implementation.

Reducing the basic unit of the period to a single stand also has its compromises. It is entirely personal preference which is best, I prefer the former and while I will watch for John Hill's new game I will likely stay with JR2.

Cheers,

The Bandit

Don, I tried to get your easy rules but yahoo won't let me register 'cos I don't have a mobile number I live in right out in the sticks where there is no mobile signal. Any other means of getting them You can email if you like… thathistoryblokeATbtinternet.com

Have to confess I've never seen JR2 or 3 but its interesting that a lot of remarks in this thread are akin to those made in connection with the 'Empire' series of Napolionic rules.

Possibly the ultimate set of love'em or hate'em rules in that period.

I'd tend to agree that the Civil War feels like it should be played with Regiments on the table but I wonder how much of that is due to the folk memory that's grown up around indvidual States and Individual Regiments with them having been created solely for the war and its iconic place in American history.

After all, when it comes down to it, the battles were fought at Brigade level. There were indvidual acts of collective heroism by certain units but the battle management was done by Divisional commanders, managing Brigades, under the instruction of Corps command.

If you want to be Lee or Grant (not everyone does) you have to give up the idea that you are sending a Regiment to its doom and just think of Jones Brigade of Smiths Division of the 2nd Corps doing its duty.