"Early 80's Bundeswehr Question" Topic
11 Posts
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HistoryPhD | 17 Apr 2013 2:19 p.m. PST |
In the early 80's, the W. German Bundeswehr operated 3 types of APC's: the M113G, the Fuchs, and the Marder. My question is, how were these 3 vehicles differently employed? Obviously there had to be different roles, otherwise one type would've been plenty. Thanks for the insights |
Generalstoner49 | 17 Apr 2013 2:27 p.m. PST |
I am sure there are people with way more knowledge on the matter but wasn't the Fuchs used in the recon role the m113g was the reserve brigade apc and the Marder was the frontline Panzer/Grenadier division apc. Early 80's I am pretty sure there were not enough Marder IFV to replace all the m113g though. |
Rudi the german | 17 Apr 2013 2:56 p.m. PST |
Hi, In this time you had many more
The M113 allround carrier. The Marder IFV and the Hotchkiss SPW lang and Kurz as APCs. The Fuchs was at this time mainly a transport tank with 6 wheels. The export version had 8. The main recon tank was the Luchs 8 wheeler and backed up by the converted Jagtpanzer Kanone in recon role. Please find here the list with all tracked vehicle by date and role. link Please finde here all wheeled vehicles by date and role. link Greetings
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Garand | 17 Apr 2013 2:57 p.m. PST |
Generalstoner49, you might be confusing the Fuchs with the Luchs. The former is an APC, used by the US in chemical units (as the Fox), and the latter is the 8-wheeled armored car. I want to say the Fuchs was used by engineering units, and other formations that might not need a fully tracked APC
Damon. |
Doms Decals | 17 Apr 2013 3:03 p.m. PST |
Marder was for panzergrenadiers, although some battalions (I think those in panzergrenadier brigades rather than panzer brigades) had their third company in M113s. As well as that, M113s were used by some reserve formations. I'm not sure how much the Fuchs actually got issued, but I think the infantry component of recce battalions used it, and possibly some light infantry formations. |
Jemima Fawr | 17 Apr 2013 3:04 p.m. PST |
Edited to add: In the time it took me to post this, three other posts appeared! :o) I can't give you a link from this computer, but have a look at the Battlefront: WW2 orbats page on fireandfury.com and you'll find my West German orbats. That should tell you where they fitted in. From memory, they existed in the following units: Fuchs: 1. The Jaeger Company and Radar Platoon of Panzer Recce Battalions. 2. As the main APC of Panzer Pioneer Battalions. M113G: 1. In the Jaeger Company of 'pure' Panzergrenadier Battalions. 2. In the divisional 'Heavy' Jaeger Battalion, which was used basically as a divisional reserve and security force. 3. In the 'Heavy' Jaeger Battalions of the heavier Territorial Brigades (50-series Brigades, iirc?). 4. The Panzermoerser 120 variant was used in the Mortar Companies of a wide range of units, while the M125 81mm mortar carrier variant was found in the Mortar Platoons of Panzer Battalions. 5. The M577 command variant was used all over the place. Marder: 1. In the two Panzergrenadier Companies of 'pure' Panzergrenadier Battalions (along with one M113 Jaeger Company). 2. In the two Panzergrenadier Companies of Mixed Panzergrenadier Battalions (along with a Panzer Company). 3. In the Panzergrenadier Company of Mixed Panzer Battalions (along with two Panzer Companies). 4. They had been present in Panzer Recce Battalions during the 1970s, under Heerestruktur 3, but I seem to remember that they were removed in 1980 under Heerestruktur 4, being replaced by more Panzers, SPW Luchs and the new Fuchs. Note that the SPz Kurz and SPz Lang were also still hanging on in some units (particularly the SPz Kurz in Panzer Recce Bns), but disappeared during the early 80s. |
Generalstoner49 | 17 Apr 2013 7:00 p.m. PST |
Garand you are right. Always mix those two up. I also forgot that we had the "Fox" in our chemical units. |
HistoryPhD | 17 Apr 2013 8:52 p.m. PST |
Thanks for all the help guys!! |
troopwo | 18 Apr 2013 8:12 a.m. PST |
When exactly did the Hotchkisses go out of sevice? |
Jemima Fawr | 18 Apr 2013 8:17 a.m. PST |
Here's that link to my West German orbat: PDF link Having re-acquainted myself with it, Marders were part of the Panzer Recce Battalion (in the Heavy Panzer Recce Companies) under Heerestruktur 3, but were totally deleted from the orbat in Heerestruktur 4. The thing to note with Jaeger Companies is that they lacked the Reserve/Recce Section found in a Panzergrenadier Company. Their Company HQ constanly hd only one M113, compared to two Marders in a Panzergrenadier Company HQ. Oh and don't make the mistake I made in leaving the .50 Cals on my West German M113s! I didn't realise it at the time, but they replaced the .50 Cals with MG3 (Top Tip: save up all those pesky MG42 AAMGs you get in WW2 German vehicle kits and stick them on your Cold War West German vehicles):
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