"WWI Naval Rules, requirements" Topic

I played a simple WWII night naval game at a convention recently using the Axis and Allies minis. Had a fun time with a really simple rule set. Now I have spent the last two weeks looking up minis and a time period to do more naval gaming.

The out of scale size ship turned me off so I plan on using 1/6000 Figurehead ships. Cheap and I can get them here in the states. I also have decided to do the Dreadnought period. WWI and post war.

I need rules now. I have read every post on tmp that asked which WWI naval rules. I need a little more info on rules.

Movement- would like a system with no writing of orders. Don't want any more paper on the table then needed. Would like ships to be in divisions squadrons following a flagship. Also don't want a rule set where the ships take all day to move a foot.

Basing- I plan on basing them. 1/6000 is small after all and I plan on putting ship names on the bases. I am not one of those people who can tell just by counting funnels and turrets. But the main thing is I want DD flotillas to be based on one base. Only capital ships have individual bases. So no moving individual DDs or TB.

Firing- I don't want to roll for each gun. I like just a few rolls to determine outcome of a salvo. So roll for each ships primary guns and then for secondary if needed. I still want the system to tell the difference between a 12 inch gun and a 15 inch gun. Also the armor of each ship should be different, not all dreadnoughts had the same belt armor or deck armor. I don't mind rolling a bunch of different colored dice all at once and then using the red dice to see if I hit or not, and then the blue dice to penetrate and then the white dice to see what damage the salvo did. I just don't want to do that for each gun of a 10 gun salvo from one dreadnought One roll per ship, not nine or twelve.

4-6 ships to player is also important. I want each player to be able to command a squadron or two with ease. I like to take my toys to conventions and share them with others in nice easy games. So a rule set that players can play in 3 hours and get a conclusion with 2-8 players would be nice. Ship logs are fine. But would like simple record keeping.

Thanks for your thoughts and time.

Doug

Sounds like you would like the GQ 3 WW I variation called Fleet Action Imminent. We've been playing it for 2 years and really like it. It even has charts for CL squadrons and DD flotillas based on the Jutland OB. Highly recommended by the Great hall Games Commodores.

My first choice is GQ3. It uses written orders. However, you only need to plot the squadron leader and have the rest follow or conform to it. You are going to need to keep a paper record on ship damage anyway, and it's easy to keep this off the table. I have no problems with keeping papers off the table. Use clipboards.

My second choice would be GHQ Micronauts, but it may only be for WWII ships, I've played it a conventions, it quite simple to learn and offers more detail than A&A. With 8 people in the game, we fought BBs off Samar to conclusion within a four hour time slot.

GQ3 is a good choice. You might also consider Dreadnought (I sell both) at ScaleCreep.com

Summary of Dreadnought's rule mechanisms:

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You may want to make sure you want to do Predread IN 1/6000. I had the same plan some years ago. I went to Historicon to see and then buy them. Frankly, the Predread were too small to make out the ship types at a foot or two distance. WWI was a little better and WWII was ok. I bought Navwar Predreads instead.

Rules have some options. Naval Thunder, Dreadnought and Damn Battleships Again all are solid.

Another vote for GQ3.

As above, pre-dreads are absolutely tiny in 1/6000th, many are still quite small in 1/3000th!

By WW1, ships are much, much bigger.

I'm fond of MJ12's Grand Fleets (but prefer the first edition to the second).

Doug

I have tried many sets, and in the end settled for "Battleship Captain" as a way to get a good game done w/o much fuss. You can play without hit sheets if you want, but I converted my set to the sheets. It is a bit like Jutland on steroids. The ship's firepower is based on the probability of doing damage, so you don't roll for a crapload of 5" secondary guns that are just going to bounce off th earmor or destroy the captain's potted palms. It comes with printed counters if you don't want to buy the ship models.

You can't beat the vintage Avalon Hill game Jutland for this period. We have played that several times using 1:6000 scale ships that were actually glued to the game counters (which are also 1:6000). The destroyers and even some of the lighter cruisers move as flotillas or half-flotillas. The only paperwork is the ship statistics charts that come with the game.

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I imagine we will use these rules again to refight some naval actions in a couple of years when we get to the centennial of WW1.

Jim

I still prefer the earlier versions of General Quarters (aka GQ1 and GQ2), partly because they are simpler.

You can get GQ1 and GQ2 fron Navwar for about £5.00 GBP GBP each. GQ1 covers WWII, and GQ2 covers WWI with additional rules for WWII. Realistic, elegant, and relatively simple rules. Only problem is that they sometimes go out of print. However, Navwar is still listing them at the links below, so…

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MH

Would you be interested in a game similar (but much improved) to the old Avalon Hill Jutland game?

Have a game system designed for both small squadron games, up to the entire battle of Jutland. We used them to re-fight Jutland in about 4 hours.

The game mechanics have exactly what you described.

Kim

I am a huge supporter of Naval Thunder. Once you learn the rules for one period (realitively simple) you can play Pre-dread through WWII.

I would also consider stepping up to 1/2400 models especially if you decide on Pre-dread as 1/6000 can be very small and the ranges are alot shorter anyway.

I have a number of naval posts on my gaming blog some of which feature AARs using NT.

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Based on your criteria I would also recommend AH's Jutland. A miniature's game in a boardgame box.
Only $8 USD here
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Before you buy any other ruleset, checkout boardgamegeek for a video of the game as well as downloads for the various ship records charts and strategic map. The 1/6000 miniatures would replace the game's cardboard chits nicely.
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First off, thanks everyone. Just to clarify, I plan on doing WWI and a 1920s Plan Orange. I have a couple ideas now on what rules to try. Of course the wife just informed me that I have already busted my April hobby budget and May for that matter too, so I will wait a couple more weeks to order rules. "But Hun they are just books, not lead".

Dreadnought sounds interesting since the max range is only 20". Jutland also sounds like checking into. I have pretty much decide to get FAI to have several different rule sets to compare.

Thanks again

Doug

Doug,

With respect to the Figurehead ships, I suggest you not make your game table too dark, use adequate room lighting, and make your bases the same color as the playing surface. If you do this, the ships will look much better, and incidentally be easier to see.

Here's my stock image showing a lighter-colored WWI-era playing surface. I don't use bases, but bases painted in the same light color should yield a similar visual effect.

MH

I was going to mount them on clear acrylic so the water color shows through. At least that is my current idea. I love the planning stages of a new project. It's when you take the first couple of steps on the project that I want to pull my hair out. Your ideas don't work or what sounds simple on paper turns into a major headache. Don't remind me of my WWI project to do the first 2 months of the war at Corps level. I did get the Germans, French and Belgians painted and based.

Doug

KimRYoung: I think all of us would be interested in your game system. Thanks for the offer! Can you post a link?

Yes any rule set that lets you Jutland in 4 hours could be a real winner.

Yes any rule set that lets you Jutland in 4 hours could be a real winner.

My first complete game design allowed you to fight WWII using a 2-hex map and a single die roll. However, I have never been told that it was a real winner…

MH

Dreadnought sounds interesting since the max range is only 20". Jutland also sounds like checking into. I have pretty much decide to get FAI to have several different rule sets to compare.

AH Jutland is a good suggestion if you want simple. With respect to the 20" comment, do not use ground scale as a criterion for picking rules, as you can easily modify this aspect by using different measuring sticks. Finally, given your criteria, I would suggest GQ2 from Navwar (my post above) instead of FAI. FAI is derived from GQIII (which I own), and if it is of a similar style, I would be concerned about sometimes inelegantly implemented (and sometimes historically controversial) detail. GQ2 is simple, but elegant, and the simplicity makes it easier to adjust to match your view of historical reality.

MH

One nice thing about FAI is a free (to registered owners) supplement covering the 'Washington Cherry Trees' and is available as a download. This would fit nicely into any 1920's Plan Orange game. As for FAI having 'implemented (and sometimes historically controversial) detail'; nothing could further from the truth. The game is heavily researched and historically correct (as much as possible, of course). The basic system is built to be intuitive and easy to play. And you don't have to write your orders (my group never has).

"I would suggest GQ2 from Navwar"

Good luck with that. A friend tried ordering it from NavWar (who, since they refuse to sell to any retailers, the exclusive source for GQ1 and GQ2) and got an 'out of stock' response. (And they're the exclusive publisher and seller).

coastal2,

I am not saying that FAI is a *bad* set of rules (or GQIII either). But note that the OP wants very simple rules. GQIII (and therefore presumably its successor FAI) do not fit that description as well as GQ1/GQ2. For example, GQIII rolls a die for each pair of guns. So, I suggest that he start with GQ2. Then when he is used to the game system, he can try FAI, which incorporates similar concepts, to see if he likes the additional detailed historical interpretions.

I have posted some of my concerns about the GQIII game-systems' historical detail in other threads, so I will not do so again here. Even so, this is inevitable in detailed rules, and I have no reason to believe that GQIII is worse than equivalent rule sets in this regard – probably the contrary, actually. GQIII/FAI would be my second choice after its predecessor GQ1/GQ2.

With respect to something being out of stock, that happens sometimes, and the solution is to inquire as to the current status of the item in question.

MH

Just checked NavWars current catalog; GQ2 is out of print (and has been for some time, at least 9 months). Short of the resale market, availability looks nil. And, I've been told, once GQ1 goes out of stock, that'll be the end of it as well.

Both links I posted above are still active. Good point that the catalog indicates that GQ2 is out of stock. However, the catalog refers to both GQ1 and G22 in many places, and in no way indicates that they plan to drop them permanently. Perhaps I will contact Navwar on Monday to clarify.

Also, if the rules do go OOP for awhile, one can always get a friend to photocopy or PDF, as the simple B&W format of GQ1 and 2 lends itself to that. Then when it's reprinted, buy a pretty copy from whoever reprints it.

MH

Uh, I'd dump the idea of a PDF. The copyright for both rules are still held. Any PDF would get a very nasty response (guaranteed). Let's just hope Tony at NavWar reprints it and leave it at that…

Naval Thunder/Clash of Dreadnoughts seems a very close fit to the original poster's wants. The added excel file to print squadron lists for each player I like very much. Britain and German fleets are in the COD core rule book and not expensive in PDF.

I also own GQ3/Fleet Action Imminent and they are excellent, detailed rules for a more involved game.

Yes any rule set that lets you Jutland in 4 hours could be a real winner.

Doug, send me a PM. The game is "Fighting Battleships!". It is just about ready to be available as a PDF. I can probably get you a pre-production copy if you are serious about playing right away.

Kim

Uh, I'd dump the idea of a PDF. The copyright for both rules are still held. Any PDF would get a very nasty response (guaranteed). Let's just hope Tony at NavWar reprints it and leave it at that…

Actually, you are right; I shouldn't have suggested this, even in the context of something being OOP. Once someone had a "temporary" copy, they might be tempted to stop there, even if the rules were later available. I will contact Navwar (phone on Saturday or fax; no email…) and see what their plans are for getting GQ2 back in stock.

And WTH, GQIII/FAI are not bad rules. I just wish there was an easier way to modify their elaborate PDF game charts, for those of us who disagree with some of the historical interpretations… I can't justify buying Adobe Acrobat right now, and am leary of "free" PDF editing software available on the Internet. That's why my copy of GQIII has been sitting on the shelf for the last 5 years.

MH

Ill add another voice for Naval Thunder rules, these are great for WW1 era warfare ;)

Naval Thunder does have an optional "no written orders" system included if the OP really wants to avoid them.

I ran Jutland to conclusion in 5 hours using Naval Thunder a few years ago at GenCon.

You can pick up the rules here:

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You'll want the "Clash of Dreadnoughts" book.

Doug, your best bet may be Naval Thunder. I have not tried those rules, but they are supposed to be simpler and faster to use than Fleet Action Imminent. Also, Naval Thunder is pretty inexpensive. It's a computer download. I think I just talked myself into buying it…

Don't even think about that old AH Jutland game. I had fond memories of that game, but when I got a copy a couple of years ago I realized how antiquated and unsatisfying it is compared to more modern rules. The only thing I kept was the search maps.

I personally like FAI. The gun firing process is quite fast and easy to use. The torpedo processes (both of them) frustrate me. For a large convention game I would want to replace those with something quick and easy. FAI is a medium complexity set of rules, far less work than the so called "rivet counter" rules such as Fear God & Dread Nought, Seekrieg V, or Supremacy at Sea, but still a little slower than Naval Thunder (from what I've read). FAI seems great for battles the size of Coronel, Falklands, or Dogger Bank, but you would need some experienced players to handle Jutland within a reasonable time.

Don't want to write orders? That's easy. Just replace the order writing with initiative die rolls and don't move simultaneously. You can do that with either FAI or NT.

Moving faster than 1 foot in an hour? You can change the time/distance scale for the rules to suit yourself. That's not too hard. FAI mentions this, as do some other rules. FAI actually has turn guages and movement measures available in a couple of different distance scales.

Basing? Those 1/6000 Figurehead ship models come based, or have metal bases in the package. And the bases have room for a label.

A friend of mine has collected all of the WW1 navies available in 1/6000. They are reasonably priced, have a remarkably complete line for WW1, come with bases or are based already, are reasonably easy to paint (less detail at that scale, use lighter colors and washes), and due to size of the models are a better option for large fleet battles such as Jutland. He uses FAI.

What is FAI?

"Fleet Action Imminent", which is a spin-off of General Quarters 3.

MH

I'm a big fan of Fleet Action Imminent. The rules for funnel smoke and stoker fatigue alone bring in a new dimension for those of us who cut our naval-miniatures teeth in the Solomons. I have a large-ish collection of Panzerschiffe 1:2400 miniatures that I've been collecting since the mid-1980s (more destroyers! more destroyers!).