"First Look - Battlegroup Overlord" Topic

After a bit of logistical jiggery-pokery, I got a set of the two new books direct from the printers today! The rest of the books will be arriving at PSC GHQ sometime Thursday, just in time for the trip to Salute on Friday!

theminiaturespage.com

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As I have them, I figured I'd give a quick run-down on them along with some poor pics by me, so you get an idea of the book and whats its like.

Firstly, Battlegroup Overlord is the same size and format as Battlegroup Kursk, another weighty tome filled to the brim yet again! The book starts with the usual run through of the campaign and then gets straight into the extra rules and army lists for the period. The first batch of lists for 'D-Day' is followed by a few scenarios and then we move into the second part of the book looking at the campaign after the initial landings and the lists associated with these. Again these are followed by more scenarios.

The scenarios are a mix of more generic ones and some more historical scenarios. All are set out in the usual format and give a wide range of combatants. For those using the lists for 'pick up and play' games, 'Beachhead' and 'Recce Screen' are added to the generic scenarios from the main rules. We also have the rules sections dealing with specific Normandy issues plus a few more special rules to give the differing armies their 'flavour'. Plus of course all the vehicle and gun stats.

There is not much more I want to say at the moment, as well, I dont want to spoil it for people really! So I will just leave it to the pics for now (sorry they aint great) and let people see what they think when they get their copies!

theminiaturespage.com

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theminiaturespage.com

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theminiaturespage.com

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theminiaturespage.com

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theminiaturespage.com

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theminiaturespage.com

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theminiaturespage.com

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The mini rulebook is a nice little handy size, and is basically the rules taken out of Battlegroup Kursk and presented on their own with the generic scenarios. The pics have been updated along with the special rules to cover the release of Overlord as well as Kursk.

I think this little fella will prove an easy reference book for players…

theminiaturespage.com

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theminiaturespage.com

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So thats all, just a quick sneak peek at the two new books.

Oh no! Another must-have purchase…

Looking good Piers (the rules look pretty smart too…)

Looking forwards to picking mine up on Sat,

Tally Ho!

Dammit. Gonna need to sell a kidney soon

I'm glad I preordered both. Though they will not be shipped until after salute. It's been something to look forward to after two weeks of twenty hour days.

I am glad I preordered mine as well .

I think it will be well worth the wait .

Then I can start my first venture into 20mm since the 70s with a British Army. Enjoyed building one of those newish Airfix Cromwells( no orrible vinyl tracks) last night . Its like being reunited with an old friend.

If Ive got Kampf gruppe Normandy (admittedly for the pictures and luxiourious glossiness)and battlegroup kursk ( pictures etc), how badly do I need this?

Remembering I dont necessarily want to be talked out of it.

You need it very badly…

If only for the glorious eye candy!

(note – Im biased… Alot of the models are mine!)

I've got KGN as well. Is there any place or web page that notes how different the games are between the two?
Thanks, Larry

You must be some sort of evil mind reader!

Now shut up and take my money!

Thanks Piers, if Im playing WW2 its IABSM to be honest but the books are quality.

Larry,

Our section of The Guild forum (www.guildwargamers.com) has some discussion on the changes from KGN to the new Battlegroup rules, they are quite extensive.

You may also want to check my blog too;

ww20mm.blogspot.ie

And the Ironfist site;

ironfistpublishing.com

Thanks Piers. On my way there now!
Larry

Is BGO a stand-alone or do I need to buy another/ some other books to play?
Mike

Actually, if I could second that query, I must admit I am confused a bit too. Is the general format that BGK and BGO are both rules books, both have the relevant army lists in, both are leaning towards their own theatres of war OR is that one is the main rulebook, the other a supplement? Please clarify if you may Piers old chap!

Cheers, Ark3n

BGK…..Game rules and supplement

BGO…..Supplement

Mini rule book…Just the rules, so you can use any of the forthcoming supplements without having to buy BGK.

Hope this helps.

Cheers Andy :-)

Looked at these yesterday. Thought about, but £35.00 GBP for BGO + rules or £50.00 GBP for BGK and BGO I decided to pass. Would have never played them as I can't see anyone locally switching from FoW or Bolt Action and that's a lot of money for eye candy.

Can't wait to get my copy of BGO.

Just waiting now of PSC to despatch it. Been looking forward to this ever since I dithered and missed KGN

I got the Overlord+mini-rulebook bundle on Saturday at Salute. The Overlord book is gorgeous – even prettier than Kursk.

I haven't actually opened the mini rulebook yet – I already know the rules and I have too much Salute loot to get through first :)

Ive just received my parcel from the Postman this morning.

The only word that comes to mind flicking through the pages is wow!

Totally gobsmacked. :)

I guess I wont be getting much work done today :)

No sign here yet :-(

As one of the people who splashed their 35 quid at Salute the other weekend, I have a question on the rules…

To move one 'Unit' you need one order. But, in the example of play (little book p16) individual tanks receive individual orders.
In the army lists some basic AFV units are one 'Unit' of 3 tanks, supplementary vehicles are in 'Units' of one tank.
So, is it one order per tank? or one order per unit? or what?
Any thoughts gratefully received.

My understanding is for vehicles its one order per vehicle or AT gun or Field Gun or Mortar

Foot troops its one order for say a group of soldiers eg Forward observer team . or section.

The exception tends to be the Germans where it is one order for the MG team and a seperate order for rest of the squad. At first this seems harsh when a Russian section just needs one order only . However it does mean that the German squad can split its fire ie the MG fires at one target and the rest of the squad at another.

I think the British can also split their sections into the Bren team and rest of the squad as an option. Again 2 orders will be needed if this is done .

Thats my understanding but I am also new to this myself.

It's one order per AFV.

You can choose to buy AFVs in multiples in the lists – you get a points discount as part of Battle Group's system to encourage more historical lists.

It doesn't matter if you buy them in 1s, 3s, whatevers, each AFV on the table counts as a unit for the purpose of orders.

Here's a more detailed response from one of the authors – link but it really is as simple as a single tank, weapons team, infantry section, gun is a single unit.

The exception tends to be the Germans where it is one order for the MG team and a seperate order for rest of the squad. At first this seems harsh when a Russian section just needs one order only . However it does mean that the German squad can split its fire ie the MG fires at one target and the rest of the squad at another.

I think the British can also split their sections into the Bren team and rest of the squad as an option. Again 2 orders will be needed if this is done .

We also have struggled with this rule. The effect is to give a tremendous advantage to US and Brit "big squads". For one order they generate a lot more firepower than either of the German split squad units and can take many more hits (every time a unit is killed you have to draw a chit which will eventually make your force break). The small German units generate less firepower take an order for each to function and are easier to kill.

A weak aspect of a good game.

TomT

Thomas you are talking of KGN not BGO here.

In BGO US units are split too. I know its easy to confuse the two, but they have major differences in the system and structures.

Here is what I posted last time you brought this up here, in case you missed it…

"While I dont want to dwell on discussing KGN (its a different system in alot of ways to Battlegroup) I'd like to respond to what Thomas sees as a 'great disadvantage' for the Germans.

I see it as the Germans big advantage.

The Germans have their squads split into a rifle team and an MG Team. This allows them to provide a base of fire from MG Teams to cover their rifle teams.

In BGK a Russian squad operates as a single entity, while a German squad is split into two.

From the point of view of the command system, where you must pay command actions to activate a unit, this at first seems a disadvantage, but it isnt when you consider that the Germans forces are invariably composed of a far smaller amount of troops than the enemy and generally get more 'Officers' that give bonus command actions each turn. This means they have less units on which to spend their activations.

In terms of projected firepower, the Soviets get 9 dice when using 'aimed' fire. This again at first glance seems better, but the Germans may use the two teams of their squad to project up to 13 dice. This is split because of the two units and again is advantageous as it can force sequential morale tests on an enemy unit when they fire or one can use its fire to pin an enemy while the other fires to cause casualties.

This makes the Germans a far more flexible force to play with.

In BGO this is different again as British forces have the chance to split off Bren Teams and some US units units have their Rifle Squads split into two fire teams."

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…and thats without taking into account the ability of Panzer Grenadiers in BGO to take a second MG.

Im happy to answer queries on BGO, but I'd rather not have it confused with KGN for critical comments which may not be valid for the new game.

It will only add to the confusion and not give people a clear sense of Battlegroup Overlord.

Cheers

Piers

Well I'm hoping my FLGS will have them in stock on Sunday…

Thanks for the clarification, but on a broader point, if I pay 35 quid for a set of rules I expect them to be written clearly, and to put it bluntly- to contain all the rules. I know everyone today likes on-line 'support' and a web site can add value to a game, but it should not be necessary to resort to the web to obtain clarity on basic game systems, thats just bad rule writing- and poor value for money. I notice that the full explanation of how buildings are handled in the game is also only available after some digging on line, they hardly merit a mention in the 240 pages of print.
Nor are ground scales or representative figure and vehicle scales (ie hown many each represents) ever addressed. I know its pretty clearly 1=1 (and roughly 1mm =1metre) but a paragraph pointing this out might have been nice. (The fact that this makes unit frontages vastly overscale I will ignore for now.)
In short, after all the hype I had hoped for a few more rules, and little more explanation, even at the cost of fewer figure shots (Oh the horror), many of which are simply repeated between the two books.

Piers, you are down as a playtester. Do you know if the finished rulebook was proofed 'blind' by anyone who hadnt already played the game? If not there is a danger that the developers and testers overlook as obvious things they take for granted, but which to the newcomer are not clear.

This may all appear unduly curmugeonly, and I freely admit I havent played the game yet, it may be brilliant, but first impressions are important, and we all know that unless the rules can enthuse on first reading that first game often never happens and the book, however shiny, ends up on the shelf.

All three books were blind proofed, by two different people and were also playtested by both primary and beta test groups. Development for BGK was roughly 15 months and for BGO it ran to around 8 months.

For full disclosure, I supposse I should mention that for BGO Im also listed as 'additional text' in the credits, as well as a playtester, as I did a number of the army lists and scenarios included in the book, along with running the primary test team and managing the two beta test groups. Im also involved with writing for the next book – Fall of the Reich – and Im the lead author for the first release of 2014 – Battlegroup Blitzkrieg.

I cant comment on how clearly the rules read, as I guess to some degree, that is something that all people will find to be different to them personally. I think all rules, no matter how well written or how well produced, will have some degree of items that some people will require clarification on or help. The beauty of having an online forum based at The Guild, is that it allows players to ask the queries and questions and get an almost instant reply in many cases. Im not sure any rulebook can publish complete clarity as you cant legislate for, and provide rules guidance for, every possible situation that may arise in gameplay. The beauty of online forums and their accesibility is that it allows players the chance to give and receive direct feedback with those that design and produce the books.

Just to take your point on repeated pictures, there is no repetition of pictures between Battlegroup Kursk and Battlegroup Overlord. The only repetition occurs in the mini rulebook that has pictures taken from both Kursk and Overlord, along with a few that are not in either book.

Cheers,

Piers

P.S. for those interested in looking or joining The Guild forum, it is located here;

guildwargamers.com

Both myself and Warwick are located there, along with all our playtesters.

Having played a lot of BGK over the last few months, I remain impressed with the quality and clarity of the rules as written.

The online support via The Guild has always been a bonus. The enthusiastic interaction and community support is part of what makes it a quality product and a game worth playing.

Piers

Thank you for your full and frank response. As I dont own BGK I can't comment on the clarity of the rules as written in that volume, or what the pictures are like. However I felt that the little 'Battlegroup' core rules book was a little thin, in contrast to the huge effort and knowledge which went into the 'Overlord' Army lists.
Nonetheless, overall congratulations on a substantial piece of work, good luck with the successor volumes.

Hi Piers,

I have been keeping track of the various posts you and many others have done since KGN, and am now convinced that BGO is the way to go with a rules system. I like the historically driven start point you all have and then expressed in what many other posters have described as sleek and clever mechanics. After one of your earlier posts where you described the number of dice for a German infantry section, it got me thinking to a couple of things I have been wondering about with the system;

1. How would the 13 dice for a German section compare to the number of dice for a UK or US section/squad? Do things like relative weights of weapon fire-power get reflected in the rules? (ie a Bren will pump out less overall than an MG34/42, but more than a BAR) also do the likes of models armed with SMG/pistol make a difference in combat as well as shooting?
2. Other than differences between what's available within each nation's army lists, how are national differences expressed? FoW does this by giving each nationality special rules, so the Germans get the likes of the Stormtrooper move for instance allowing them to move more if they haven't fired in a turn, they get others also, and of course Bruts and US etc get their own.
3. One post some guy wrote last year questioned close combat and how it was represented (I think defo within KGN) He stated that there were 4 stages to building up to an assault in close combat against an enemy position. He felt that the 4th step was not represented in the rules (ie; move models into base contact and roll for combat) and you felt it was (ie close combat was effectively close range shooting and all units were considered as being in close combat within 8") can you clarify?

Sorry to be a bit specific, but many people want to be sold on 'special rules', where as I am much more about core rules. Overall the books look exemplary and really worth the money, cheers amigo!

Ark3n

Ark,

1 – Yes, weapons have differing 'rates of fire' in dice terms. So for an example a Bren adds +1 dice, while an MG42 adds a whooping +6. SMGs do make a difference in close quarters fighting and Assault Rifles have their own way of functioning too. So the flavour of the different weapon types is represented.

2 – Im not sure we would call them 'national' differences, but each force does have special rules that try to reflect differences in things. For example, the Russians get one rule called 'Urrah' that allows them to move entire platoons for one activation, they basically come rushing forward, the US get a few things to represent their higher levels of radio communications and fast artillery response. So each force has a few little rules that give them the flavour of the army. Each list has something to add flavour, like the 'Panzer Ace' option for the Germans.

3 – BG has a 'close Assault' phase now that was missing from KGN. This represents the close in firing, lobbing grenades and generally getting stuck into brutal close fighting. This is likely to get expanded in the next book 'Fall of the Reich' to cover FIBUA combat in a little more detail… Mainly as I have nearly finished building my city terrain!

Hope that answers those for ya mate, anything else, ask away.

Khaki,

Yes… The 'mini' rulebook is just that… Its small and compact purposely to allow an easy reference book for players to carry around with them. It does contain all the core rules and generic scenarios plus details on the various special rules. Its small… But perfectly formed! And as a freebie you even get a pic of me and Warwick in the book! Thats worth the price alone!;)

And thanks for the congrats, alot of hard work went into these games, though its really a labour of love for myself and Warwick. At heart the driving force for us is that we want to play games with the rules, so they are driven by that desire to play WW2 games and a love of that period in history that we both have had since we got our first boxes of Airfix figures. People liking the rules and enjoying them makes all that effort worthwhile though.

Cheers guys,

Piers

Piers, great stuff thanks. I have had a gander at the QRF as posted in one of the other threads here too. The +6 for the MG42 vs the +1 for a Bren seems a bit unbalanced (I would have thought the Bren would get nearer +2 or 3) but I expect the idea is that it is the overall weight of fire that each section could pump out would be weighted heavily in the German favour.

Can you clarify vehicle AP vs AT values. Rules I wrote (and similar to, I think, how FOW allocated armour values was to round an armour value of a vehicle up or down to the nearest 10mm and then divide by 10 for an easy number to work with (so a later war panzer IV with front armour of 80mm would have an AV of 8 allocated to shots to the front). Armour penetration is done the same (so an 88mm for a Tiger with AP 112mm is rounded to 110 and gives a AT value of 11 when divided by 10), is this the sort of way BGK&O approach armour or is it more general in terms of 'light armour', 'heavy armour' 'very heavy armour' etc?

I have all my armies in 28mm, although most of my vehicles are 1:56 scale (SandS models) and 1:60 (Westwind tanks) so not too big, would i need to (and by how much) adjust the scales and distances within the game (+20% or so increase?)

I've been on the PSC website and it seems that the mini rule book is not in their choice of 3 products, is there anyone else to buy the mini rule book from?

Cheers,

Ark

Yes armour and gun values are done in a similar manner based on performance rather than arbitary classes so you have a wide range of armour and gun stats.

The differential between the Bren and Mg is done as a balance to how the unit firepowers work in total, and how the squads are structured. Plus the difference between belf and magazine fed of course. But yes, its the overal squad firepower thats the key.

Most people I know play 28mm as is, but I'd probably look at a 20% or 25% increase.

I think PSC have the mini rulebook in a bundle with BGO, but drop them an email as I think you can buy it on its own.

Piers, top dolla thanks! I have all I need to know now, game on!

Ark

Yes,they are attractive, but two points:

1) they would be more attractive if they had been packaged properly and did not have their corners crunched. For 15 pounds (well, for almost any amount) two scrap pieces of cardboard and four pieces of tape is disappointing.

2)the "mini" rulebook is just that. The font is so small it is unusable to me. Perhaps your target demographic is younger than I. I may take the booklet apart and photocopy it onto 8.5 x 11 paper and place it in a binder for a game reference.

Hi Dano,

1 – Ironfist dont deal with the shipping thats PSCs area of things, I have passed on your concerns regarding packaging to PSC. It is the first comment regarding damage we have had, and books are difficult to post as corners have a habit of getting crushed. If you are very dissapointed then may I suggest dropping PSC an email, they are very good at sorting out customer service issues like this.

2 – Yup it is an A5 mini rulebook in size. The font size used is similar to that used in GW and FOW mini rulebooks. The scaled down size was done to reduce costs and keep the price as low as possible for those buying BGO and who didnt already have the full rules in a BGK book. There are full A4 sized downloads of the QRS and counters on the Ironfist website.

Cheers,

Piers

One other question Piers, when buying Squads/Sections are they always the full unit (10 men or whatever?) or can you buy squads in varying sizes? So could you buy squads of 6 men, 9 and another at 10 men strong?

Basic squads tend to be of a fixed size .Although weapons may vary eg extra MG 42 for Germans etc.

Smaller squads are possible by buying say a Recce patrol . But these arn't true squads per se and therefore won't benefit from the platoon command etc.

From the lists they are always at a set size.

You could, and I have done in the past, reduce numbers for playing set historical scenarios. I did that when I played out an Arnhem scenario where I wanted the British units to be understrength due to losses.

Thanks chaps, much appreciated…