"German Armies at the Battle of Saint Gotthard, 1664" Topic

Does anyone knows a good order of battle for this conflict? Also, were the armies of the german states (Bavaria, Austria and Bradenburg) still organized and dressed as their TYW armies, with Cuirassiers in full armor, Mounted Arquebusiers and pikemans with breastplate and helmet? Would there be some sort of uniform worn by the german troops?

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The army at Szent Gotthard was a mix of Imperial troops, troops raised by the "circles" of the Reich, troops supplied by other German states (actually included Swedish troops since the King of Sweden held his German provinces as member of the Reich rather than them being incorporated into Sweden) as well as a large force of French troops.

That style of equipment had disappeared already during the TYW itself. Uniforms of a sort had been introduced before the TYW but was a question of supply and they were not yet highly regulated. I.e colours could vary between companies and colours would change from one year to the next. The cavalry was probably the most uniform in appearance with for example the Imperial cavalry on paper wearing buff coat, breast & backplates and helmet.

Nice links, thanks Daniel.

Are you familiar with the North Star 1672 range? Do you think the infantry there would be about right for French for example?

Gentlemen;

I'm the author/editor responsible for two of the links Daniel posted. I say "editor" because the articles were a collaborative effort between myself, Daniel, Curt Johnson (the third link), and Dan Schorr. I could not have found much of the source material that I referenced without their kind assistance.

@ idon'tbelieveit – In a word, no, not exactly. However, they may be as close as you can get with commercially available castings. Please refer to these plates from the Vinkhuijzen Collection on the NYPL's web site for the plates on French 1650-1678 under Louis XIV.

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You will see that many are very similar to the North Star range, especially the closer you get to the mid 1670's. They are not perfect figures for the earlier period, but I'm not aware of any that are, except for possibly some stray figures in "Three Musketeers" ranges intended to represent the 1640's with a bit of artistic license thrown in.

Given the available ranges, I wouldn't hesitate to use the North Star figures, just don't paint them "uniformly". Possibly pick a theme for a battalion or company; all the same sash, or all the same plume, or all the same coat (but slightly different variations of the color and shade), etcetera. I did this in 15mm and used them against Ottoman Turks locally using George Gush's old WRG Renaissance rules. They looked the part and nobody ever challenged my sources.

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

In the book "Imperial Austria: Treasures of Art, Arms and Armor from the State of Styria" a catalog of a traveling exhibit I saw at the Smithsonian in the 1990's, there is a painting entitled the "Battle of Mogersdorf" which I gather is, in fact, the battle of St Gotthard.

The perspective is from the rear of the Imperial Army, so you see the backs of everybody--The Horse is either in helmets and cuirasses over buff coats or just buff colored coats and hats.

The Infantry appear to be in justacorps, in mostly dark colors (black, brown, although some are in all red, and what looks to be an officer or NCO (has a kurzgewehr) is in a buff/yellow coat and breeches with white stockings. I can see white and red stockings in the same unit, brown coat/breeches w/red stockings, red coat/breeches w/white stockings. I think I can make out some blue coats as well. Any sashes that I can see on the cavalry are all red.

There is no artist identified, and the attribution on the caption appears to place the painting in Schloss Obermurau.

Would there still be Mounted arquebusier units? I'm trying to understand how did those ceased to being used (and their role become more or less taken by dragoon units, which weren't that numerous during the earlier periods). Also, how did the cuirassiers in this era lose armor and started to wear armor like the mentioned mounted arquebusiers (breastplates and helmets over buffcoats. I dont know if they would have had gauntlets)?

Mounted Arquebusier units had been abolished in the Imperial Army already during the TYW due to being ineffective on the battlefield and not as good in the "small war" as true light cavalry (i.e Croats, Poles and Hungarians). Also the "new" style of cuirassier with light armour could do the work of the mounted arquebusier if you gave him a carbine.

Cuirassiers lost their armour in several diffrent ways. The soldiers themselves threw away most or all of the armour due to weight in some regiments with poor discipline. The Imperial army changed regulations so that cuirassiers units did not have outfit themselves with fulll 3/4 armour when new units raised. And "old" well disciplined regiments who had kept using the armour asked to be given leave to no longer use it since it was costly and ineffective for the kind of service the regiments were asked to carry out. (Such as winter campaigns, fighting in the small war)

So you ended up with a "light" cuirassier who was no longer specialised in only fighting field battles but could also carry out all other missions particularly when some or all of the cuirassiers of a company were given carbines.

The heavy armour simply was not worth the cost and the need for expensive horses on battlefields filled with musketeers and artillery. Particularly when large battles were rare but "small war" fighting something which happend everyday

Some may have worn so called "bridle gauntlets" to protect the left hand but it was not common issue.

Thank you! About the imperial mounted arquebusier units, were they all disbanded or converted to cuirassiers during the TYW? And would any german army have kept mounted arquebusiers after the war, or did they all follow the austrian example? Also, did dragoons become more popular only during the second half of the XVII Century, or were more regiments being raised during the later phases of the TYW?

Yes, Wallenstein abolished the use of the carbine among the German cavalry after the poor performance of the mounted Arquebusiers in the battle of Lützen. Only the Croats and the Poles were to use the carbine. However this did not automaticly mean that the Mtd Arq. were designated as cuirassiers as cuirassiers were paid more and had diffrent requirements as far as the equipment and quality of horses was concerned. The designation "mounted arquebusiers" lingered for several years even though the regiments were forbidden the use of the carbine and had to get rid of them.

After the TYW the German states either completely disbanded their armed forces or kept only a very small force of houshold guards, artillerymen and garrison troops. The cost of the war and of disbanding the TYW armies was such that few states had neither the ability nor the interest in mantaining armed forces. The Habsburgs were the exception to this rule as they kept a more significant force in being which was later expanded in the 1650's when the Habsburgs joined the Northern war to fight the Swedes.

"Dragoon" was often simply the name of a musketeer who was supposed to have a horse but did not get it. All armies mantained units of dragoons during the TYW but these were often shortlived compared to the regular cavalry. Cavalry and infantry regiments could also mantain companies of dragoons as part of their organisation which would effectivly hide them unless you had a very detailed order of battle. You would usually find 1-2 regiments of dragoons next to dozens of cavalry regiments. For example at 2nd Breitenfeld the Imperial army fielded some 30 cavalry regiments, 4 regiments of Croats and Hungarians and 3 regiments of dragoons.

Daniel S, What about the other german states which had line cavalry ("reiter") regiments in the 1680s and early 1700s? Did those exist on the TYW, or were created after it?
RNSulentic, do you remember if the infantry had colored cuffs?

I found this text on Knotel's Uniformenkunde, which seems to cover the period. Can anyone translate the german?
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Nothing there about uniforms in the 17th Century, it is all for the 1700's

That's too bad. I thought it might have had something. still, thank you very much!