"The problem with sculpting women's faces" Topic

You can't sculpt an optical illusion.

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Funny thing is most of them still have makeup on in the 'no-makeup' shots, just not as much.

A few of them look better IMO.

The last one is the best.

Point taken, but you have to admit that even the worst painter can give a female face flawless skin, which, according to these photos, is half the battle.

It's their JOB to look good, and they pay people well to do it for them too.
Sometimes they need a taxidermist…
The Kardashians are a case in point. The only time Kim K looks good is when she puts on that patented glazed stare.

Hey, I bet some painters can make Redoubt AWI look good!

If anyone can sculpt an optical illusion, Tom, it's you.

To be fair, several of those ladies are still very pretty even without makeup. Milla and Beyonce, for example. And I think Anne Hathaway looks better *without* makeup.

Many of the not-so-pretty ladies are older, so I can cut them some slack.

And I've always thought Khloe Kardashian looks like a longshoreman, with or without makeup. Woof! (Not that she'd ever stoop to actually working for a living.)

I also realize that none of them would even give me the time of day, so this is sort of a petty exercise. (I do have a great personality. Hah!)

And a similar photo essay could easily be put together for male actors, of course. Unfortunately for women, "ruggedly handsome" is often applied to males, rarely to females. "You should ask that girl out, she's ruggedly handsome." Naw, that just ain't gonna happen.

To be fair, several of those ladies are still very pretty even without makeup. Milla and Beyonce, for example. And I think Anne Hathaway looks better *without* makeup.

As I was thinking. Jen Lawrence is more made-up in that pic than I think I've ever seen here. And the 'au natural' Mila Kunis looks sick, and Sharon Osbourne is squinting in the sun.

Kathy Griffon scares me WITH make-up, so…yikes.

It's always been my opinion that (unless you're really hiding something), a woman's makeup should look effortless. If she spends three hours in front of the mirror each morning before going out for the paper, I shouldn't be able to say, "yeah, three hour looks about right".

And Kelly Clarkson needs that weight back.

Problem with many of these pre- post- make up pictures is that the pre-make up photos are equally selected for making their subjects look in their worst possible light; in other words, they are as manipulative as the others. I remember when I worked in an ad company, we made a little experiment: the photographer would try to take the worst possible photo of the models, and we would select the one who would look less bad. It was curious; he managed to make look ugly a 17 y.o model that was the most beautiful person I have ever seen in my life, with or without make up… Bottom line: don't take this comparative shots too seriously.

@jpattern2 agree on Anne Hathaway – someone got carried away with the lippy.

Some of those "before & afters" are only possible with photoshop.

Generally I shun the overproduced version of anything… movies, music, females. Some of those 'without' pictures are harsh but I still prefer them to the weird clown makeup that passes for 'glamourous'.

… and it still doesn't explain all the ugly female sculpts GW puts out.

Here is a sculpture of Diana by Augustus Saint-Gaudens

His means are different from the make-up artist (as he is working without color) but his ends are the same, to emphasise the features that we find appealing. So, he has exaggerated the size, spacing, and depth of the eyes; he has also exaggerated the curvature of the mouth. Note the large eyes and full lips on the comparison photo:

(Also an excuse to post a picture of Anne Hathaway. Now, give her a hug!)

Ron

His means are different from the make-up artist (as he is working without color) but his ends are the same, to emphasise the features that we find appealing.

Not exactly. What he's doing is editing out extraneous detail and irregularity to get an idealized face. Very, very few people have features approaching this.

Women use makeup to hyper-feminize as well as emphasize features. Hyper-feminized female faces are so ubiquitous that a normal, un-cosmetically enhanced female face looks masculine to most people.

Most of what passes as 'feminine' and 'masculine' is added extras/affectations and dependent on historical era and culture… the inherent differences are much more subtle and variable/unreliable.

The best female faces I have seen in any scale, but especially 25mm are by Chub Pearson of Denizen Miniatures. Check out his 25mm SF line.

Dave

Here is a sculpture of Diana by Augustus Saint-Gaudens

He may be a pretty good sculptor but he doesn't know much about archery.

He may be a pretty good sculptor but he doesn't know much about archery.

He might not, but he still did a pretty good approximation of kyudō:

"Women use makeup to hyper-feminize as well as emphasize features. Hyper-feminized female faces are so ubiquitous that a normal, un-cosmetically enhanced female face looks masculine to most people."

That makes me feel better about the masculine look that my sculpting of (15mm and 28mm) female faces seems to take on. I imagine that after I practice doing a few hundred of them they'll stop resembling Bruce Willis in drag…. ;-)

Tom is quite the fair hand at female faces. Kev White of Hasslefree is very good as well

?

is this forum about sculpting or the yahoo homepage articles?

Another point to consider which hasn't been mentioned here yet is hair styles. These can do much to "enhance" an idealised face shape.

Bald women always look more masculine, as do female sculpts before the hair is added. Obviously a hair style can't alter the smoothness of complexion, delicacy of features or symmetry of a face, but well styled hair can bias our judgement of the proportion and outline of the head which is a good chunk of the battle in terms of creating a look of femininity. Hence the reason women spend such a lot of time and money styling their hair, perhaps more than on make up for the face.

As suggested above, "no make up" photos are just as unrealistic…they are often taken at least partly maliciously to catch someone off guard.
Not many of us, whether male or female, do that well in front of a camera without the chance to reach for a comb, suck in the stomach, avoid a double chin effect, and attempt what passes for a smile.

He might not, but he still did a pretty good approximation of kyudō:

You know that didn't occur to me. Diana as a Japanese, I just assumed she'd loose in the Mediterranean fashion, three fingers on the string and arrow on the left of the bow.

Maybe Saint-Gaudens was a fan of Japanese woodcuts, they were a big influence on Western art at the time.

I have tried to fire a bow that way. Seems completely unnatural.

Despite being naked?

Despite being naked?

Well, she is a goddess, I suppose she doesn't need the traditional glove or chest protector.

I have tried to fire a bow that way. Seems completely unnatural.

I made a thumb ring because I'd read the thumb release was supposed to be better but it takes some getting used to. I used a 60lbs recurve at the time but even after a deal of practice I couldn't draw more that a 30lbs bow or my thumb felt like it was being torn off.

Figure reviewers often complain that the arrow on the right of the bowstave is wrongly placed. Is this a common feature of Oriental (i.e., thumb-ring) shooting?

Figure reviewers often complain that the arrow on the right of the bowstave is wrongly placed. Is this a common feature of Oriental (i.e., thumb-ring) shooting?

Traditional Japanese yes, China sometimes, Mongols (and presumably other steppe nomads) no.

The Chinese Olympic archery team uses Mediterranean draw and placement. I don't know about the Japanese.

I don't know about the Japanese.

Your answer:

Your answer:

Wait…you mean sometimes the Chinese and Japanese did martial arts things for screwy esthetic or religious reasons that actually made them less effective? All those movies….WERE LIES!

I'm coming to the conclusion that, if there was a hard way to do something, that would be how the Japanese would do it.

And they'd look marvelous doing it.