"Was Lafayette just a young punk kid..." Topic

…rebelling against Authority?
I know his Dad was killed in battle, but …

It seems the fashion in TMP these days to criticize Greene. It has always been the fashion to slam Sullivan and Wayne, so here goes.

He was not exactly a tactical genius. Yet, we have this 21 year old kid given major battle commands. I do not recall him ever doing well, though.
Was he just a charming kid? Was he essentially adopted by the childless Washington?

To get back to my title, he always reminded me of a rich spoiled 60s college radical going to Cuba to cut sugar cane for Fidel.
He did appear to be useful when back in France, being "our man on the scene" with the most credibility with Washington. Other French soldiers seeking command in the Continental army did not exactly cover themselves with la gloire.

If I were Lee at Monmouth, I think I would have been annoyed too.

Lafayette, John the OFM is here.

During this time Royalty was the ruling class, but I get your point not here.

I haven't read much specifically about him, but he was definitely well regarded by Washington, Franklin, and the Continental Congress. There are also a hundred or more towns, cities, colleges, and statues named after and dedicated to Lafayette across the US, and I don't think you got that kind of recognition 200 years ago just for being a media darling.

If I were Lee at Monmouth, I think I would have been annoyed too.

I believe at the time Lee was also known as "Charles the OFM," so that stands to reason. "Hey, you Lafayette, get off my battlefield!"

I wonder if Washington didn't suffer from the same perceptual problem most of us have, we only recognize that which is familiar to us. Washington was an inspiring presence, a generally cool head but he was not particularly decisive or insightful, certainly his genius of command was to inspire rather than direct. Lafayette was similar. Maybe that's what Washington understood, maybe cleverness made him uncomfortable or he just couldn't see it. It's a common type.

I don't even like Lee!

Hah!

I never realized He was so young.

Yeah, from what I've read, he was a punk rebel, all riled up by the salons, ready to be a hero. He also completely ditched his new wife – sent her a letter from the boat!

But he did keep his command intact during the Virginia campaign. Cornwallis was running scared! ;)

Don't forget he was also very wealthy! That was not an insignificant factor. That said he had character, as demonstrated by his actions after being shot at Brandywine.

I think that at the small level of combat in the American Revolution (large battles having 10,000 or so per side, with some crucial battles at 2,000 per side or less), with troops often unpaid, poorly clothed and fed, that charisma was more important than in professional European armies of the period.

Professional armies would not put up with the abusive conditions routine in the Continental Army. Professionals demanded to be fed. Pay might be overdue, but better show up eventually and be worth more than a Continental paper dollar.

What did it matter if a technically proficient officer could not inspire his troops to follow him, or for that matter not to desert? So yes, Lafayette was a young celebrity activist. We needed him. Byron is still regarded well in Greece for doing substantially less.

My guess is that the Americans believed that Lafayette was well connected at the French Court. It makes sense that they wanted to keep him close to Washington, and giving him commands. After all, in an era when networks of personal acquaintances were all important for making things happen, it is reasonable to show esteem for someone you though was a personal friend of the King of your principal ally. To understand why people in the past did take some decissions, we need to know how their societies actually worked.

<<It seems the fashion in TMP these days to criticize Greene.>>

No, in fairness I think that was just me. I don't know why Sullivan has such a poor reputation – unless it's for being a lawyer, of course (which is fair enough ;^] ).

I think he was helped by GW's "son I never had" attitude towards him. By the time all of GW's internal opposition had self-destructed or been eased out, the worst of the French "imports" (Conway, de Roche Fermoy, etc) had also been and gone, and so it was easier to be a Frenchman in American service in the latter half of the war than it had been up to late 1777.

I don't know that La Fayette really did any harm at Monmouth. Lee certainly was piqued at "the boy" being given command of the advance guard (but then GW had offered it to Lee first in any case, I think, and Lee had turned it down), but during the actual battle it was Scott and Maxwell who did the dirty on Lee, not La Fayette.

My $.02 USD on this subject. At Monmouth, he was just a punk kid and mostly only had his zeal and bravado. However, he was quite a important politically-well-connected punk kid and was also quite wealthy. That made him much more important than most of the other "European Imports" serving/wanting to serve in places of high command in the Continental Army! He did greatly improve as the war progressed. TomS.

If he were, would that make him a Lacepunk?

I've heard that Franklin was a pretty sharp old guy and I don't think he would have been easily fooled by some dandy. I've also heard that Washington tended not to suffer fools well. Take from that what you will.

John, you say that like it is a bad thing. If you look at most of the foreign officers who came to serve the US you'll find a collection of motives running from stagnating or failed careers, adventurism or a hope of reward. The question is what they did once they arrived.

He wasn't a tactical genius, but then again the same could be said for many of the American commanders. He was somewhat lucky in the beginning (never underestimate that). His Virginia campaign was competent. He also had money and he had connections at the French Court, and used both of them for the American cause.

If he were, would that make him a Lacepunk?

No, he didn't wear a corset.

I think he got better as the war progressed. He screwed up bad around Philadelphia during the Valley Forge winter, disobeying Washington's orders and nearly being surrounded by the British. But then did a good job of getting his troops out of the trap.

His handling of the Virginia Campaign showed marked improvement. Finally, I would place more blame on Lee for Lafayette's performance at Monmouth than on a "punk Kid."

It's interesting that the exercise we are doing in France next year, with a bunch of other NATO troops, is called "Operation ROCHAMBEAU" instead of "Lafayette".

I think, like most folks, he gets better over time.

Eric