"FoW Haters: Setting the Record Straight" Topic

There are some who would have us believe that the TMP forum is a haven for "Flames of War haters" who hang out on the Flames of War board, and destroy the morale of FoW players with their constant condescension towards them.

I have even been "challenged" to monitor the forum and do something about this horrendous behavior.

However, I haven't found anything worthy of any fuss!

Even the "hub to hub" topic looks to me to be a friendly discussion on the subject, mostly among people who are FoW players.

Yes, I've given a few warnings to people I thought were getting close to the line.

However, I have also seen nothing which couldn't be dealt with by prudent use of the Stifle button. For goodness sakes, if someone is annoying you, just press the button and mute them! Problem solved.

I have also called for those who claim to have experienced "FoW hatred" to contact me with the details. No one has done so.

Therefore, I honestly can't see where the TMP forum has a "FoW haters" problem.

I have seen "other" forums recommended because they are all fluffy bunny and no negative waves.
Well, that is not discussion. That is King Lear ordering his daughters to tell him who loves him the most.
Cordelias are not welcome, apparently. Only Goneril and Regan need apply.
(Does that make me the Fool?)

As you point out, a lot of us enjoy the game, but see the warts too. Apparently to some, warts are not to be mentioned.

I could point out warts on this thread, but that is not the intent. I will save them for other threads.

Nice analogy John but perhaps the Emperors New Clothes would be more apt?
For the record I do not hate FOW
I do not hate BF
I do not even hate any BF staff though I do disagree with their methods sometimes neither of us lose sleep over it – well maybe one Global exception hehehe
BF fanboyz on the other hand……………..

EDIT: Darn John this was a cunning ploy by Bill to flush us out DOH!

Have more than thou showest,
Speak less than thou knowest,
Lend less than thou owest."

Oh, that way madness lies; let me shun that."

"Always with them negative waves Moriarty!"

Don't really get the hater mentality. Why spend so much effort on a game you don't like? Focus on the ones you enjoy, and leave others theirs. It's not a competition.

I don't understand all the fuss. I've commented on the game before. Not based on my experience playing it. But based on AARs I've seen posted here and other's comments.
I'm no fan of the game, but I'm not going to try to tell folks they can't play whatever they want.
This all makes me wish I still had my old copy of Tractics…

I hate that there is a FOW board.

I've never played FOW. I did get a brief run-through of the game at the BF/GF9 booth at Historicon. Seemed OK. Nothing special.

I don't know enough about it to hate it. Well, other than the fact that the OFM seems to like it. So I guess that might be a good enough reason. But, for now I'll just note that the most annoying thing I've noticed about the game is the guys who whine (whinge) about other people who hate it.

Nothing special.

Which is exactly my point, expressed in the past on other threads. Play what you like, nothing is perfect. Particularly what YOU play.

I miss Derek H too, but he was a … hater. when he wasn't beating this dead horse, he was quite entertaining.
Dear Editor sets the rules. You don't have to like them. You can always violate them. See where that gets you. He kept beating the dead horse. Flagellating the differently-vital equine entities can get you in trouble if you have been warned.

For the record, I am a DBX … disliker. But I have not chimed in on that for perhaps a year. I do not keep track. However, even I got tired of beating that dead horse. If I haven't made my point, and if the deluded adherents of that system have not been convinced by now, what's the point?
I have not been put on this planet to be a "malleus maleficarum" for games I dislike. I have a higher purpose in life, which is to play the games I do like. Life is too short.

Hater-haters gonna Hate.

BF fanboyz on the other hand

I can't stand fanbois, regardless of their interests.

There's a certain mindless fanaticism about fanbois that grates with me.

E.g. I love Iron Maiden but I hate Iron Maiden fanbois and am happy to criticise the band when I think they deserve it (e.g. Virtual XI and no it's not Blaze's fault).

I wandered in there by accident after misreading a heading and thinking it was a post about the War of the Bavarian Succession and they sure can generate a bit of nastiness in there all on their own

Meh. Leave it alone. It is not the best WWII game but every time I have played I've had a good time.
** define 'best' as is your will**

Leave the board as it is, so everyone can see how insecure some of these "haters" are. Meanwhile, better discussion happens on other forums.

You might call me a FOW 'hater,' but leaving negative comments on the FOW board to irk the fanboys isn't my MO or worth my time and effort. But I can see there may be those who feel differently and have too much time on their hands. They don't speak for all of us 'haters.'

A typical FOW thread goes along the line of:

OP -- How do you …
Response 1 …
Response 2 …
Response 3 FOW is excrement. Use anything but FOW.
Response 4+ A massive and generally not very entertaining furball.

Thats why I try and get my post in early Nick
We could be doing something useful like drinking beer instead of posting here?

Are there any examples of 'Haters' about their despicable work?
I read a lot of the FOW threads because I'm interested in WW2, but I do not recall ever reading anything unreasonable.

I prefer fora where people are allowed to explain their likes/dislikes, without worrying about being so polite that the commentary losses all its force. I am in Cordelia's team!

We don't have haters in the 18th century though I suppose our troops are a bit hubcap to hubcap

I am a hater. And that is from the top guy at BF. Beat that you wannabees :)

"That is King Lear ordering his daughters to tell him who loves him the most.
Cordelias are not welcome, apparently. "

I saw what you did….

friendly discussion on the subject

Therein lies the problem! As soon as you criticize the precious you are a hater.

Meanwhile, better discussion happens on other forums.

Then I suppose you can provide examples of (a) a "bad" discussion on TMP, and (b) a "better" discussion somewhere else?

Sure!

Bad: TMP link

Better: link

Notice the difference between constructive criticism and petty sneering.

Another "New book is same as the old book except you may need the new book, but I dont need both books, will give it a pass book, Ill be getting it book…Ill just get Bolt action book instead book" thread.

Most useful discussion

…Even Visiting wwpd needs a theme tune

YouTube link

So who did the "Challenging"? BF? Or one of their Fanboyz?

Is a thread like this even necessary?
It is clear we have haters for FoW and Fanbois… such is the nature of this game, just like with GW products.
Calling them out and pointing fingers is bad form… we all know who they are anyway… Bill is right, if they get too bad, stifle them.

You have some people who bought into the hype… were disappointed and now enjoy riping the game up any chance they get…. these people are just as common as those that drank the kool-aide. Both bring humor to the discussions, but sometimes… they do ruin a good discussion.

Stifle is your friend… I think?

I love and learn from a good discussion, but agree with Nick to often it gets wrecked by the out right haters.

Perhaps refraining from the term "fanboy", "fanbozy", etc., and also refraining from calling someone a "hater" would be a good start? I have seen this far too often (and it is not going to change) and has the same result as throwing down the Nazi card when you disagree with someone, thus ending any chance at reasonable debate.

If you call someone or a group a fanboy or fanboys you are being derisive thus ended all hope of swaying that person(s) with your argument. Congratulations, if that was your intent, and oh look you earned another stifle. Be proud of yourself and revel in your lack of skill in constructive concourse. One could say we are all fanboys when it comes to this hobby. So when I see poor writers using the term in the ways I have just described, I am reminded of the proverb that a man should not throw stones if he lives in a glass house.

Yes, it would.

One had one's wrist slapped!

Tally Ho!!

I've not encountered out and out fanboys of the game either. I don't know what is the dividing line between a fan of the game and an obsessive fanboy.

"Are there any examples of 'Haters' about their despicable work? "

nope, but plenty of threads with people ranting about them or to them and 'answering' them….even as the OP.

It's like they are using a mobile hands free…you cannot actually see who it is that they are talking to or about.

After a bit of this and then ranting at each other about how terrible it all is on TMP and that another forum is "your source for all things Fluffy Bunny" and is a much better forum which has chilled discussion about paint drying..

Meh.

Haters could easily show respect by simply not commenting unless they have something meaningful to contribute to the thread.

Fanbois should probably refrain from posting such posts as "I am sick and tired of the haters!". This is akin to someone posting "Somebody just stifled me!" and not expecting any more stifles.

Sure!

Bad: TMP link

Better: link

Notice the difference between constructive criticism and petty sneering.

Sorry, don't see much difference – on the WWPD link you provided, they are criticizing errors, complaining about prices, and praising EasyArmy…

You actually think this topic is a "hate Fow" topic???

Sure!

Bad: TMP link

Better: link

Notice the difference between constructive criticism and petty sneering.

That is really funny. Some of the people labelled 'haters' here also comment on wwpd. I guess they are just reasoned and constructive over there and here their inner hater emerges. What a joke. 'Hater' actually means "Waaahhhh, Mummy, that boy is being mean to me"

On a humorous note

The expected fluffy bunnie

The TMP Fluffy Bunnie

I hate haters.

I'm really tired of the 'wall to wall tanks' complaint, when the phenomena is not unique to Flames.

For the love of all that's holy, two tanks literally hubcap to hubcap in Flames are better than 12m apart according to the SMG-range groundscale.

OK I will give you an example
Company says we are issuing new rules, when you open them a knife will pop ou t and cut off your testicle
TMPers ill immediately argue about the cost of the book, speed on the knife, constuction of book and when the last book with a testicle cutting knofe was published
Fanboy will say I did not need the other testicle and I cannot wait to buy book no matter how much it costs

"For the love of all that's holy, two tanks literally hubcap to hubcap in Flames are better than 12m apart according to the SMG-range groundscale."

and without moving are 350metres apart for 25pdr range, but luckily, its template is 1km square!..except when it isn't.

Got that?

Yeah, I'm not real fond of the telescoping groundscale. But it is a game that I enjoy playing.

I think the problem is that the 'haters' tend to be people who have played historical games for many many years and who see things in a somewhat different light to those who have come to Flames of War from the likes of Warhammer.

It seems that the FoW 'fans' do not appreciate the view of the game from the 'haters'.

Interestingly some of the 'haters' myself included actually play a lot of FoW, run FoW events, do intro games for new players and enjoy the game. All despite the fact that some features of the game are unusual to say the least.

Personally the unusual features (variable ground scale and hitting based on target skill) are among the bits of the game I like the most. I have tried to see if I can come up with ideas for a 'better' WWII game at the scale of FoW and it is really really hard.

BF management seem to be mainly focussed on their core market which I think they think is the Warhammer escapees and as a result it seems they really don't care what the 'haters' think.

Perhaps I should look to get a design done for a "TMP FoW Hater and proud of it" T-shirt 3:)

"Yeah, I'm not real fond of the telescoping groundscale. But it is a game that I enjoy playing."

As do a number of people I know who play it on a weekly basis. It doesnt matter if an observation is about hubcap to hubcap, infantry phalanx or gunlines deployed gunsheild to gunsheild. The telescopic groundscale gives FOW a specific, perhaps even unique, look and you either live with it as a whole or you don't.

I actually play a few other periods with these guys, but do not want to introduce them to ww2 alternatives.

There is a problem with this board. The WW2 Discussion board has really good stuff and informative discussions. This board hosts some people whoa re really negative about Fow and rant about it in a way that sets a less than pleasant tone.
Other boards do not generally get comments such as 'Thankfully less and less FoW is played around here' and virulent attacks on the company and its personnel. Nor, generally do you see topics that are in effect hostile pitches against the company's products and prices. Some of that is fair comment, but it is the degree that it goes on that sets an unpleasant tone.
FWIW I think that there are those who are jealous of FoW's success and the model that it follows.
Over several threads there has been an analysis of the causes of he negative attitudes on this board, but that makes no difference.

No Hammy, I don't even see you asa 'Hater', just occasionally and fairly critical and that I cannot see anyone having a problem with.
As to stifling others, the problem is that occasionally they all say sensible things
from time to time and are often knowledgeable people.

As to 'Fanboys' I really have not seen any here. I think the Fanboy accusation is invented by one or two people with axes to grind to justify their negativity.

Perhaps the problem is that FoW themselves exercise censorship on their Forum and thus the disgruntled come to spill out their dislike and upset others.

And Mr Editor, I know that you have a difficult job, but there does come a time when you should intervene over the difficult issue of consistent but not severe criticism. It is easy to discipline someone for libellous statements or racial insults, but it requires greater judgement to know when a few individuals are setting a tone that harms your publication and need, not draconian sanctions, but a word in the ear.

Lewisgamer, If you saw the following posted, what would you think about reasoned comment and "really negative about Fow and rant about it in a way that sets a less than pleasant tone?"

Is this okay?
----------------------------
"I bailed because the game sucks. Their prices are high to be sure, but the models are pretty sweet.

I *definitely* am not defending them. But I've heard people say they're done for years and they keep making money hand over fist, and continue to be the largest game company by a factor of 10.

That being said, their rules are awful, their prices are insane, and their policies sort of creep me out."
-----------------------------

…err…It's just a game!.. I personally don't care what rules you play. If it gets people playing historical wargaming and keeps manufacturers releasing models, terrain etc then any set of rules is a good thing.

Anything that can capture a few of the 'fantasy/scifi' kids and get them playing with historical figures is a good thing for the future of the hobby. I always think that as the 'Airfix generation' dies out the historical part of the hobby will die out with it, so anything that survives is a good thing.
Our group plays with our own universal set of rules across all historical periods and refights real battler rather than made up scenarios. I expect we are in a minority, but we enjoy it, so do what you enjoy.
As for haters and fanboys, it is surely being blown out of proportion. You aren't going to get purely constructive comments, or thoughtful discussion, you're also going to get stupid 'this is crap' comments. This is a forum where you can all express your view, If you don't like someones opinion you can reply, ignore or stifle.

"Perhaps I should look to get a design done for a "TMP FoW Hater and proud of it" T-shirt 3:)"

Hammy put me down for two shirts at XL please – oh and an other 100 for my fellow FOWers.

I really do not think BF realise what a PR disaster they have made over the last 2 or 3 years – no company would continue to carry on in this way if they thought it would lead to their economic downfall – so I can only assume they just do not see it