"Black Powder--any modifications you are using?" Topic

I played a good game of Black Powder at Cold Wars, and an interesting rule the GM added was to make shooting occur BEFORE movement in the turn sequence. He said his home group used that modification and liked it, and it seemed fine in the game I played.

What are some other modifications people have tried?

I have always been a fan of Piquet and its approach to IGOUGO, but I really like the Black Powder rules overall, so one new BP modification I am thinking about is using a deck of cards, one player assigned Black and the other Red, and each time a card is turned over they can have one leader attempt to give a command (any level of leader, any sort of command).

One thing about any sort of card/dice draw activation system is that it limits the size of your game and makes multi-player games kind of tedious. With only one unit or group of units moving at a time, all the other players are just standing around watching and a turn can take quite a while. My game club (which favors large games) is finding that out with the Bolt Action rules. Of course this isn't going to bother small games.

We use Black Powder for the Franco-Prussian War 1870 and also use the Fire, then Movement rule.
It seems right for that period.
Joe

I can't keep track of all the modifications we're using. I bought the book, read it through, thought I had a good grasp of the rules, then went to play a game with my locals and tossed the book aside after 2 turns because they've apparently modified everything.

One mod I've been considering (but which appalls the locals) is to leave the firing after the moving, but take away a firing dice for every move a unit makes. So only units that stand still get to fire with full effect. The whole mechanism whereby I can move three times and then fire at full effect has always bugged me. It ignores the constraints of time and space. What does anyone else think?

The whole mechanism whereby I can move three times and then fire at full effect has always bugged me. It ignores the constraints of time and space. What does anyone else think?

You are looking at it the wrong way round. If everything works correctly (orders are received and understood, the ground is not too difficult to traverse etc. etc.) then a unit SHOULD be able to move the 3X distance and be able to fire as well. Every turn. When a unit doesn't, then this represents any number of ation factors that prevent it doing so …

I think the three-move possibility is a bit extreme and maybe ought to be limited in some fashion.

If you play on a big enough table it is really not a problem. It is a good way to get armies jumbled up on the table with some units way ahead of others, which happens. It is their way of doing fog of war.

You need a table that is at least 6 feet wide though.

For me , BP only works for later 19th C with fire before movement. To make this work fully, a few additional rules are needed: a unit that fires before movement may not use its initiative action (ie, you can't fire and charge, is at -1 to its command roll, and other units may not interpenetrate a unit that has fired.

This stops units from moving through the killing zone and shooting first, and it forces the player to choose between shooting and having a better chance of moving.

Locally in our AWI game we cut the movement in half. You can still make 3 moves just at the slower rate. Hits before shaken were doubled. Most units now take 6 hits before being shaken. Allows several exchanges of volleys. And the 6 on a d6 roll causes disorder, was changed to a morale check instead.

Changed the move sequence so that the non moving player fires instead it removes a lot of the anomalies. Also using the Hail Caesar rule for units passing through another, so you tend to keep to linear/columnar tactics.

link

I just recently got the rules and I've only played twice so far, but the only modification I've made, at this point, is to allow units to fire only if they have made one move or less during the turn. So if you roll really well and get 2 or 3 moves, you can do so but you can't fire at the end of it.

Personally I'd modify it with a paper shredder.

21eRegt

There are many rules I don't enjoy. I find it best not to comment on them if I have nothing constructive to say.

Love the idea of loosing a firing die per move. I've been using -1 for moving but this new rule is cleaner and more in the spirit of the rules. Thanks

I like that too: Might make a good alternative militia rule for units that just arent that slick at drill!

WE use and have used or will use too many to count.

I love the snide remarks…..BP arent perfect, there are some things things that dont feel right but overall I have never had a game with them I didnt enjoy nor have I ever felt the rules ruined a game….it is interesting to see what others do to modify the game, essentially that is the spirit of the rules!

Love the idea of loosing a firing die per move. I've been using -1 for moving but this new rule is cleaner and more in the spirit of the rules. Thanks

Let me know how they work – everyone here thinks I'm balmy for thinking of it.

I think that is an inspired idea, Mserafin. A simple, elegant, easily-remembered mechanism. It will make for some nail-biting, but certainly worth a try.

Personally I'd modify it with a paper shredder.

And this, coming from someone who plays Empire…

Interesting summary of changes on your blog, Fire at Will – when you allow Defensive Fire is that for any defending units?

Also, once a unit on the non-moving player has fired in Defensive Fire, is it then also allowed to do so in the next turn/phase when the non-moving player becomes the moving one?

We do BP for Franco-Prussian. For Franco Prussian, we added the rule that cavalry cannot charge formed infantry to front unless the infantry unit is shaken. Also, all cavalry is small. Thirdly, on a blunder, Prussian units charge enemy within range. Germans fear Africans. Lastly, we do 15mm so all distances are halved from what they are in the book.

I like the penalty to shooting when moving more than 1x. I also am going to try the fire before moving.

"Personally I'd modify it with a paper shredder."

"21eRegt

There are many rules I don't enjoy. I find it best not to comment on them if I have nothing constructive to say."

I would modify firing so that inflicting a hit on a column with a musket ball is a bit easier than hitting a skirmisher…How is that for constructive? I think that trumps every suggestion that has been made so far. Think about maths and dice is you can hide any old rubbish in two die rolls.

33% chance that (maybe Muskets and tommohawks or rapid fire instead…) I will enjoy the comedy aspect of these rules tomorrow….and I look forward to the fun.

I would modify firing so that inflicting a hit on a column with a musket ball is a bit easier than hitting a skirmisher…How is that for constructive?

Thats sounds really clever and witty doesn't it? Almost as witty as the shredder comment. Shame its complete and total BS!

Now my maths aint great, but I would have thought that hitting a skirmisher on a 5 or 6 (-1 modifier for shooting at skirmishers) is harder, not easier, than hitting a column on a 4,5,6?

Or were you referring to morale and saves, rather than hitting? It seems your english is as dodgy as my maths!

Lets see now. To hit a skirmisher with a musket the basic 'to hit' is modified by -1 to 5 or 6, and lets assume the skirmishers have a save value of 4,5,6 (although of course you are entirely free to give them an easier save value in the stats if you feel their training warrants it)

So harder to hit, the save value is nominally 4,5,6

To hit a column the basic 'to hit' is not modified, so hitting on a 4,5,6. Easier to hit, but troops in column get a plus one to their save to represent the cohesion and comfort of the dense column formation.

Seems fair enough to me. If you want to give your skirmsish troops a lower save value to represent them taking cover, making hard targets, etc, then go right ahead, the rules positively encourage you…

But, whilst I admire your complete and total disregard for the facts of the case, please don't go around making complete fabrications about the rules.

If you think in terms of casualties representing strictly just numbers of wounded/killed, then KevanG may have a point.

But in BP casualties represent not only men killed and wounded, but also other factors that affect a unit's ability to fight, such as exhaustion and loss of nerve.

The combination of adjustable 'hits' with 'saves' allows any amount of tweaking to represent this overall result on the effect to fight of the target unit.

Yes thats absolutely right,and indeed this sort of tweaking is positively encouraged to suit a particular campaign or scenario.

But to suggest the rules mechanism per se is ridiculous because a column is no easier to hit than skirmishers, is, quite simply, completely WRONG!

Are there any black powder era rules that work like Squad Leader, where movement and fire are resolved as each unit moves? I always thought that was the best way to do shooting combat.

@ Forwardmarchstudios: I'm not sure what 'Squad Leader' is like, but perhaps you're thinking of something like 'Sharp Practice'? This is a black powder rule set where each unit is activated on the turn of a card, and can then make a number of chosen actions (including things like moving, shooting, reloading etc), fully resolving them before the next unit is activated.

"But to suggest the rules mechanism per se is ridiculous because a column is no easier to hit than skirmishers, is, quite simply, completely WRONG!"

chance to hit a column 4+ and chance to save 3+ Chance to cause a casualty 1 in 6
chance to hit a skirmisher 5+ and chance to save is 4+ chance to cause a casualty is 1 in 6.

I will admit it changes at short range, where it gets EASIER to hit a skirmisher than a column. This of course makes some peculiarities with the skirmish screen rules which make your columns easier to hit and bring them into range quicker.

Yep completely wrong….as I stated, you can hide a lot in two linked die rolls…

"The combination of adjustable 'hits' with 'saves' allows any amount of tweaking to represent this overall result on the effect to fight of the target unit."

except the parameters of adjusting these values can have huge impacts…like adjusting a units stamina from 3 to 4 means that it becomes impossible to shake a charging unit and halt the charge if you only have three dice to fire.

My son doesn't like these rules or Hail Caesar because they don't use casualty removal. I'm thinking of trying out a modification whereby if a unit gets to double its stress value and avoids running away it loses a base and is downgraded to the next lowest unit size using the appropriate stats. No idea if it will work but but will give it a try when i get the time.

This is something some people cant seem to grasp, you're encouraged to modify the rules to suit your own requirements.

@Mick the Magpie;
Got to agree with your son! I like to see my units whittled down as they advance to their inevitable doom. other than that I haven't thought of any modifications yet.

"Thats sounds really clever and witty doesn't it? Almost as witty as the shredder comment. Shame its complete and total BS!"

Your evidence please?…work it out. IT is FACT. and I agree that it is total BS.

the rules make it as easy to hit a skirmisher as a column…Anyone putting out a skirmish screen MAKE their columns easier to hit by…decreasing the range or actually entering range of musket lines when the column is out of range.

But hey, I have enjoyed the 'shock assault horse artillery' incident and yesterday's game where skirmishers in the open held off a charging light cavalry brigade for 2 turns after losing three rounds of melee. They are a hoot!

Kevang, I think you miss the point. Firing on skirmishers and columns has exactly the same chance of diminishing their morale. Not cause casualties. The column, kettle drums hammering, will suffer greater casualties before it is shaken than small, dispersed groups of men without their friends and NCOs around them. Not sure that is BS…quite historical actually.

As to the anomolys that dice allow…a thin red line held off many times their number of heavy cavalry. Not sure it was quite such a hoot though.

These rules work really well at giving you that representation of when a commander seizes the 'blink of an eye' moment, executes a surprising act in double quick time and changes the complexion of a battle……..or overreaches himself and becomes fatally exposed. If you want to feel like you are commanding troops you need an element of friction. If you want to play chess for statisticians then…

@KevanG: If you really dislike BP, then perhaps it is the wrong rule-set for you. After all, the authors make it very clear in the book what kind of game BP is:

"The BP game is nothing more than the realisation of the rules and conventions that we [the authors' group] happen to have arrived at over many years of warfare, written up and presented to our fellow gamers for their interest and enjoyment. … Naturally, we wish our game to be a tolerably convincing representation of real battle; however, no pretence is made to simulate every nuance or detail … We leave these matters to more complex rule-sets that are primarily concerned with such things."

So, if it isn't the right rule-set for your style of play, then fair enough, don't play it. But why do you insist on raining on the parade of the many, many gamers for whom BP hits the right mark?

If I commented on all the rule-sets I didn't like, I'd be a busy person. Besides BP, I assume there are other rule-sets you don't like? So why have you got it in so much for BP – and thus indirectly for those fellow hobbyists for whom it is obviously intended and who enjoy it as a game?

Your contributions would be much more useful in threads supporting and assisting players of the rule-sets you do like, rather than rubbishing a set that you obviously don't like, but which is clearly not aimed at your style of play anyway.

I've just moved to BP after several games of using my own home-spun rule and we have seen a marked improvement. People may recall that the aspect I liked least about BP originally was not removing figures as casualties, but I have to say I am "over" that, and the advantage of the BP system is that we can play a campaign with persistant units without having to resurrect people.

The main changes we've made is to reduce all measurements (except artillery ranges) by a third, which I think is actually mentioned in the rules – or perhaps in Albion Triumphant.

The big change I will make when I get the chance is to write and laminate more summaries, as certain aspects are not necessarily in the most useful place – for example special rules like First Fire are nowhere near other rules for a unit that has it. I noticed in one of the other forums that someone had made cards for each of their units in Hail Caesar, with the stats and any special rules and I think that's something that would make our games a little quicker.

"Thats sounds really clever and witty doesn't it? Almost as witty as the shredder comment. Shame its complete and total BS!"

Your evidence please?…

Now my maths aint great, but I would have thought that hitting a skirmisher on a 5 or 6 (-1 modifier for shooting at skirmishers) is harder, not easier, than hitting a column on a 4,5,6?

You can read, right? That could be your problem, right there…

Kevang seems to want to reduce the game to maths. You have to get into the spirit if BP, skirmishers are harder to hit but more likely to suffer a dip in morale if they take less hits, yes, that comes down to two dice rolls which amount to the same change of a casualty, but the point is for different reasons! Also, it's relatively simple to enfilade a column, which gives you twice as many chances to hit, where you can not enfilade three skirmish unit.
That's my understanding anyway, why anyone would argue about a game they don't like is beyond me, just don't play it.

"You can read, right? That could be your problem, right there…"

no, I cant read, I cant write either , nor can I do maths. I am especially hopeless at typing.

But I can count to 2 and know that 1 die roll doesnt tell the whole story.

"why anyone would argue about a game they don't like is beyond me, just don't play it."

and who is argueing?, I suggested what I think would be the best amendment….and why should I not play it? It's a good laugh and it is impolite to refuse an invitation!..of which I have a very many. Anyway, the BP games I play dont generally have columns or skirmish screens..so problem solved!

The Richmond guys enjoy BP, HC and P&S alot. Quick play, fun games and overall historical feel when fight is over.

I use BP for AWI, Naps and ACW. For my AWI and ACW I do have a few house rules.

In 15mm games we cut all movment and fire distance by 1/4 dsitance. In 28mm no change.

If blunder or fall back due to breaking Terrain modifeirs are not taken…ie: unit retreats full distance despite terrain! (8" or 12 " depending on 15mm or 28mm scale)
Any movment across terrian (stream, fence etc) or in woods is 1/2 speed and at the end of the movement roll 1d6. On a roll of 6 the unit goes into disorder.

Artillery prolongs 3" instead of 1/2 movement.

In ACW and for American BTNs in AWI (Rebels and Loyalist) these units can go into skirmish formation. It takes a move order (Formation change)and all stats (Shooting, Morale, and Stanima etc…drop by 1) HtoH drops to a only 2 dice. Just in case the skirmishers want to try to stand in fight? We have not had a skrimish unit stay yet! Allow them to fall back one full move!

If a skirmish unit is shaken once it does rallies. ie: Formation Change back into line, it drops the shaken marker.

I will be running a 15mm ACW game at H'con…hope to see a few of you there.

SFC Retired

BP seems to fit the ethos of the Lace Wars very well IMO. I'm also in the camp of less convinced about it by mid 19th century, the shoot/fire mod sounds interesting.

We have found that the 3 x move is OTT for 28mm cavalry on a 6x4 and even 9 x 6 table, so dropped it to 2. Might try the "reduce all moves by 1/3rd" idea above.

For 15mm we use cm, not inches for movement.

In all French & Indian Wars (ie in Americas and India) we find you need Stamina of 4 and a 3+ to model the superiority of ordinary European line over local fierce troops in number.

What I really like is all the little options to give units a small but not game changing character, I think Lace Wars is exactly the right scale to define them, so my Alsace Regiment are "Reliable", my Swiss are "Tough Fighters", my Gendarmes are "Determined Chargers" etc etc.

I do find the Poor General factor of 7 a bit frustrating, am tempted to up all Generals factors by 1 or you can have large amount of your (French, 2 poor generals by decree) army doing nothing most of the game.

Accurate, but frustrating :-)

We played SYW & MAW with BP a lot. Each time we tweaked a few rules to customize the game to our liking, which is what rules are for anyway. Now we have a more or less new set (19 pages) which is just what we want. We went to casualty removal & stationary units shooting before moving units as 2 of the bigger changes.

JP Kelly

Great thread. Lots of good suggestions. I particularly like the movement & fire suggestions!

I'm looking forward to using BP for both ACW and Franco-Prussian eventually.

I removed the save throws, except ones for cover, and upped the Stamina a little to compensate. This made the game quicker to play.
I also use the units Morale level as a base in the Break tests for the obvious reasons. For instance a Green battalion might have a moral of 3 and that replaces one die in the break test.

We recently played BP in the Sudan and I suggested that the two mounted Imams I had should be allowed to be attached to any Mahdist unit they pleased (excepting Beja) and in doing so they would raise that unit to Bloodthirsty Fanatics, a sort of galvanizing of the warriors into a religious frenzy with some inspiring rhetoric type of thing, in order to give the more lacklustre units a bit of extra Ooomph. If used on the right units at the right time it worked well. We also introduced a rule whereby the Imam when he was attached to any unit became a bit of a bullet magnet and the opposition were allowed to roll an extra d6 if firing at that unit as he would be expected to be leading from the front urging his men on, and on a score of 4+ he copped it. This worked ok and helped to balance things out a bit, giving the defender the hope that he could stop the Mahdist steamroller before it swamped his force.

My Supplement for WSS
link

Thoughts on Broken Brigades (how we now play)
link

One thing is the number of moves.
Mathematically there are 4 significant ways to arrange the probability of 3/2/1 moves.
a) 3 moves most probable, 1 the least
b) 1 move most probable, 3 the least
c) 2 moves most probable
d) 2 moves least probable

Cases c and d have sub cases depending on which is second place- 1 or 3 moves.

Thoughts
a – 3 is the 'Manual' move distance. Slower rates represent obstacles, nerves etc
b – 1 is the expected, more moves are due to elan/staff work etc
c- 2 moves is average, but battalions can be slowed (as per a) or move quicker, (as per b).
d is … what the hell IS d? Well its the ACTUAL breakdown of probability in the game. You are LEAST likely to roll the median result. You either do really well or really badly.

There are 2 ways to get 1 move; Command Value (CV) or CV -1
There is only 1 way to get 2 moves – CV-2.
If CV is 9, there are 6/36 chance of getting 2 moves, but 9 of getting 1, and 15 of getting 3
CV = 8 1 move 11/36, 2 moves 5/36, 3 moves 10/36

My proposal (untested) is
Roll is
CV or CV-1 : 1 move
CV-2 or more : 2 moves
Half (rounded down) CV ; 3 moves

So for a usual CV of 8
7, 8 – 1 move (11/36)
5, 6 – 2 moves (9/36)
2, 3, 4 – 3 moves (6/36)

Others
CV 7
6, 7 – 1 move (11/36)
4, 5 – 2 moves(7/36)
2, 3 – 3 moves (3/11)

CV6
5, 6 – 1 move (10/36)
4 – 2 moves(3/36)
2, 3 – 3 moves (3/11)

CV 10
9, 10 – 1 move (7/36)
6, 7, 8 – 2 moves(16/36)
2, 3, 4, 5 – 3 moves (10/11)

CV 9
8, 9 – 1 move (9/36)
5, 6, 7, – 2 moves(15/36)
2, 3, 4, – 3 moves (6/11)

Oh, we also expect the player to give the order before the roll (in the rules), and then KEEP TO THE ORDER, even if the dice don't allow all of it- this is fr when you don't get the 2nd (or third) order, and you end up in a rubbish position because of having only 1 move. Its implied in the rules to our minds.

As we play with 10mm, we use cm not inches on all rules (thus making the table 6x the effective area!) For period feel we call out orders in paces – 1mm = 1 pace.

Like the idea of calling out paces!

For the group I game with , we have made some simple modifications. weapons ranges are cut by 1/3. Movement is cut by 1/3. ( we do not have a 8 foot wide table) and artillery batteries are 2 bases to better show frontage.

Runicus

I thought I'd posted on this but perhaps not: -

Here's our club's house-rules and amendments for BP Napoleonic and ACW.

link

Goex FF,125 grains frequently cut with sugarless kool aid of magnesium filings.Sorry,couldny resist.