"British Flags" Topic

I've recently started rebuilding my AWI British army but remember reading (quite a while ago) that units only rarely took their Colours into battle. Can anyone confirm this for me or was it just a theory put forward by someone who didn't like painting flags for his miniatures? :-)

Thanks

Why paint them when you can buy them from Flag Dude, GMB, or Cotton Jim?

I think SM has the most to share on this subject, but yes, there is some thought they didn't carry colours, or at least they didn't all the time. Certainly the converged Grenadiers and Lights didnt have any, same for the Guards. But I'll defer to SM on this subject. :-)

or was it just a theory put forward by someone who didn't like painting flags for his miniatures? :-)

Well, that's MY opinion!
What kind of a filthy blackguard would deprive a proud regiment (particularly an "ancient" regiment!) of its colours?

A colonel that didn't want to lose his property to a bunch of rebels in an unglorious war? :-)

@ shootmenow,

You have a fair amount of latitude here, so colours/no colours – pretty much your choice. Just remember that the staff was just under 10-feet tall and the ensigns were usually young – don't have them on flagpoles that look like ECW-era pikes and being waved around like the flags at that quasi-mediaeval Italian horse-racing ceremony!!!

The British did not carry colours into the field in the F&IWar following a general order from someone (might have been Amherst). Not sure if this was also observed by Wolfe's army, but it certainly was in the New York campaign around Fort Ti/Crown Point.

During the AWI, some units did, some didn't; whim of the CO, or possibly the state of them (the American climate is much more extreme in all seasons than Europe) were probably the deciding factors, although the way the British usually fought – in extended line – and the nature of the terrain (heavily wooded in some places, farmland criss-crossed with fences and walls in others) resurrected the F&IW practice. Howe was probably in favour of leaving them behind as they inhibited the use of his "light infantry" tactics by line troops – there's no record of anyone seeing them at Bunker Hill for example, and we know each regiment that supplied its battalion companies for that battle left a detachment of 20 men behind to protect the "regimental baggage".

At Yorktown, for example, the 43rd, 76th and 80th lost their colours (as did all the German units present), whilst the 23rd smuggled theirs out; the 17th probably did not have any (having lost sets at Princeton and Stony Point) and there is no record of what the 33rd did with theirs; it is likely the Guards didn't have any in America, at all.

At Saratoga, Burgoyne declared his British regiments did not have theirs with them (a German officer also recorded their absence in his diary), but again we know that the 9th smuggled theirs out. Your figures, your rules.

Your choice. I use them for every unit except light infantry and Tory militia. I don't use them for composite Grenadiers either.

I tend to use them in most hat battalions as it makes it easier for the players to figure out where their regiments are. I don't use them for light, grens or guards.

Thanks very much for all the info guys, especially the examples from SM. I'll go with for the line as it looks prettier but not for the lights and grenadiers.
Thanks again.

Yes, light infantry and grenadiers were drawn from the parent regiments, which "owned" the colours. They would not take the flags with them to what was a posting to a temporary ad hoc formation.
The same can be said about the Guards, but back in my ignorant youth, I gave my Guards battalion a flag that I hand painted from an example in a book of Napoleonic flags. They have fought too well to take their flags away, so they are stuck with them. In my defense, I had read that the Guards were "different", and that each company had unique colours. Maybe. However, since each company contributed drafts to what was sent to America, the same situation applies as above.

John et al,

The Guards' colours were the opposite of those of the Line regiments: ie the King's Colour in each battalion was the plain flag (in this case crimson) and the Union-based flag was the Regimental Colour; however, they still stood with the King's on the right and the Regimental on the left, if you were standing behind them facing the enemy. The Regimental Colour was one of the company colours, which carried the family crest, or a similar badge/heraldic device, associated with the commander of that company, and each was carried as the Regimental Colour on a rota basis.

For some years, a set of colours (the Major's colour of the 3rd Guards, and one of that regiment's company colours) was touted as having been taken to America; this pair was held in either the Guards' Museum in London, or the RUSI Museum in Scotland, I forget which. These are the ones that flag manufacturers such as GMB sell for the Composite Brigade of Foot Guards.

Whilst I agree with the posters above that colours add to the look of a tabletop unit, sadly there is a comment in the diary of an Ensign Glyn to the effect that part of the reason he was given a promotion was that there were no colours to be carried by the Brigade in America.

I am finishing up two battalions of grenadiers in 15mm. I know they did not carry regimental flags or the kings colors. But I have been debating given each battalion a flag? For example one battalion an all green flag and the second battalion an all red flag.

Just trying to get a feel from others on this idea. Cause I know when I place them on the table I will get comments from someone. lol

bleh. :-)

Not sure what rules you use, but in BG the converged battalions are often broken up into divisions since they were so big. Soooo, the point being, I often have more than two groups of grens, lights, and guards – and they fight just fine without flags. Your figures, your choice though. :-)

@ Ironwolf,

If you give them small ones, you could argue that they were using their "camp colours" for markers/rallying points. As the name suggests, these were small flags issued to each company to mark its "street" in the regimental encampment. They were usually in the facing colour with the regimental badge or number, maybe a company indication in the officer's lace colour (possibly a badge for the grenadiers or lights – not sure if there would have been numbers for battalion companies in this era).

They were roughly about the same size as the company fanions French sergeants used to stick into the ends of their muskets in the Napoleonic period, except they were on a proper pole – see here:

link

I'd suggest making yours the facing colour of the senior company in the battalion (ie the grenadiers from the regiment with the lowest number – eg 4th Foot – dark blue with gold emblem, for the 1st Grenadier Battalion).

"bleh." well thats better than I thought I would get. hahahaa

Historygamer, So I should see how they do on the table before adding a generic flag??? lol They do good, no flag. Not so good, then they get a flag to boost morale.

Exactly. :-)

And don't think your other battalions won't notice either. :-0

Supercilius Maximus,
Is that a small square flag or a guidon type flag in the miniatures rifle?? I really like your idea and justification for me being able to place a flag with my Grenadier Battalion. lol

SM:

Considering the British army didn't have tents much of the time while in the field, how likely would it be they would even have the camp colours vs them being in the baggage train or in storrage somewhere?

@ Ironwolf,

It's a small square flag, I think; the camp colour would be a similar size and same shape. OK, it's a pretty tenuous justification – and don't you DARE say that I put you up to it!!! ;^))

@ historygamer,

Tablecloths for the officers' mess? Joking apart, there do seem to be a few American accounts of captured "flags" that sound more like CCs than genuine colours.

Iron Wolf, here are some pictures with camp colors:

link

link

link

I have to admit that the concept of carrying them around in battle to me personally seems more like carrying around a street sign, but hey you have a functional use for them and if anyone asks it gives you an opportunity to at least talk about camp colors. In the end, we are talking about a game and games use markers.

One other approach you could consider is to use drummers from different non-royal regiments in the command stands to indicate the detachments as their coats had inverse facings and they stand out so much. If you want to make them stand out even more you could have a fifer and a drummer as the grenadier companies were allowed fifers.

Supercilius Maximus: and don't you DARE say that I put you up to it!!! ;^))

hahahahha, now that would generate some hate mail wouldn't it. lol

Redcoat, I completely forgot the Grenadiers were allowed to have fifers!!!! I could easily place an officer, drummer, fifer and marching fig on the command stand. That would stick out enough to be obvious on the gaming table. The simple solution is usually the best solution. lol

Thanky for all the replies!!! Really appreciate them.

Supercilius Maximus said, "there do seem to be a few American accounts of captured "flags" that sound more like CCs than genuine colours."

I always wondered about these captured flags I had read about. Cause it seemed to conflict with other reports of many British units not carrying their flags (colours) in the field. In your readings have you come across anything that indicated the companies carried CC's into battles?

Not that I'm going to give my 15mm battalions CC's for each company… hahaha But I find this interesting to consider when reading on the AWI.

Genuine King's/Regimental colours being captured are well documented, and in some cases actually still survive (eg the 7th's at West Point). The "odd" items are usually those captured/looted from abandoned baggage wagons, which is where they would be kept – I doubt any Crown units carried camp colours into battle for any purpose.

"I doubt any Crown units carried camp colours into battle for any purpose."

Flash camping. All the rage. :-)

Better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick…..

…..or not.

"The "odd" items are usually those captured/looted from abandoned baggage wagons, which is where they would be kept"

aaahh, I see what you mean. So when I was reading reports that indicated, "numerous flags were taken or captured." I always took that to mean King or Regimental colors. Or some kind of company flag I was not aware of. More than likely they were just camp colors recovered in a wagon or such. Cause other things I've read made a point of documenting King or Regimental colors when those were captured. This really puts a lot into perspective for me in what I have read.

I've been reading about the AWI for a few years now. So something as simple as not knowing camp colors makes me realize just how much I don't know about my favorite period. lol

Sometimes it's the little details that make sense of the big ones!

I did not want to start a new thread so figured I'd post this under British Flags.

Been searching online for an hour now trying to find what the 40th Regiment in the AWI flag looked like??

Their color was Buff, so if I can not find one to print out. Then I can color a flag with the red cross in the middle. or color a flag that has the wreath in the middle. I just need to know which one it might have been?? lol

Fife & Drum is your friend here:
link

Main site: fifedrum.org/crfd/BD_1.htm

Only regiments with red, white or black facings had the large red cross on the Regimental Colour; for the first two it had a white field, for the last it was black (and there are examples of the black field, in case anyone has heard that black-faced regiments had white fields in practice).

What kind of a filthy blackguard would deprive a proud regiment (particularly an "ancient" regiment!) of its colours?

General George Washington!

My solution for 28mm colours has been to take a small wire, wrap a little masking tape around it, spray it black and carefully lay it in my painted little baggage wagon.