" Armor versus mud and mines" Topic

Armor versus mud and mines

"Looks at the operations of the Fourth Armored Division in the Sarre-Moselle area in the winter of 1944. Illustrates an example of when armored divisions should never be employed, if avoidable. It is hoped that better balancing of forces and better conceptions of battle will prevent any such use of armor in the future. "

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Even without mines very muddy terrain can a formidable obstacle to vehicles …

True. The Germans certainly learned that in Russia LOL. Robert

Interesting that after the Battle of Arracourt the 4th Armored would have such problems with mud and mines but I guess it was different terrain and weather. The winter weather must have created a morass in some places with the armored vehicles churning up the earth. Robert

"General Patton believed, and stated this belief at every opportunity, that tanks could easily breach the West Wall, now the big obstacle athwart the route to the Rhine. But many of the veteran junior officers in the armored divisions were less sanguine and privately held the opinion that the armor would be cut to pieces in the maze of antitank defenses ahead. Of greater immediate concern was the problem of tank going in the November mud. Many believed that the campaign was beginning a month too late-a belief shared by infantry and armored officers alike. There was nevertheless considerable optimism among the troops and their leaders, though this optimism was less flaunted than it had been in August and September. Now it was tempered by the long period of inactivity, the mud and the rain, and their exaggerated estimate of the strength of the German West Wall."
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Same sort of thing happened during Op Clipper when the supporting armour was lost in mud leaving the infantry to push on without support. Armour from both sides was pretty much locked to the roads.

Mines were less of a problem as the heavy rain washed the earth away leaving many visible.

In the book "Bothers in Arms" in mentions that they often lost crews when a tank would get bogged down in mud and the crew would die of carbon monoxide poisoning. They would usually abandon the tank as soon as it got stuck. Taking their grease gun with them and support the other tanks on foot.

"that they often lost crews when a tank would get bogged down in mud and the crew would die of carbon monoxide poisoning."

I hadn't heard of that before. Robert

Was "carbon monoxide poisoning" common in US tanks? Robert

This is from Wiki so take with a grain of salt as usual. Robert
"U.S. crews found that on soft ground such as mud or snow, the narrow tracks gave poor ground pressure compared to wide-tracked second-generation German tanks such as the Panther and the Tiger. Soviet experiences were similar and tracks were modified to give better grip in the snow. The U.S. Army issued extended end connectors, "grousers" or "duckbills" to add width to the standard tracks as a stopgap solution. Duckbills were original factory equipment for the heavy M4A3E2 Jumbo to compensate for the extra weight of armor. The M4A3E8 "Easy Eight" Shermans and other late models with wider-tracked HVSS suspension corrected these problems, but formed only a small proportion of the tanks in service even in 1945."
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Don't know if was common but this unit lost a couple of crews and the were supplies E8s. They also abandon the tanks any time they vehicle couldn't move. They felt safer on the ground than as a target surrounded by fuel and ammo.
This is only one battalions story.

By the way, this is the unit Jackie Robinson was initially assign to. He was reassign before it deployed, so he never saw action. The book has a few paragraphs about his courts marshal.

Do you mean the 4th AD in particular or a certain sub-unit? Robert

"A M4 of the 6th Armored Division tries to help pull another M4 out of the mud. …"
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WEASEL (M29 Cargo Carrier), similar to those used for evacuating wounded, pulls jeep out of the mud.
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A Red Ball Express truck gets stuck in the mud
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Sometimes the mud really made things difficult LOL. Robert

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One of my Favorites. LOL. Robert