"Why do we have to bitch and moan about how others play?" Topic

What is it that brings out the Wrath of God against games that you do not play?

So what if Flames of war is "unrealistic", at least according to you?

Why do you feel the need to dump on it, and by extension its players, just because it's not your cup of tea?

I will readily admit that I like to dump on DBX, in most of its iterations. But I haven't done it in over a year, maybe two. It got old with me. But dumping on flames of War never gets too old for the Haters. They are like missionaries trying to get the cannibal women to cover their boobs. They never let up!

Am I allowed to say "Shut up and go away!" to the Haters without going to the DH?
If I ever decide to start contributing to Poll suggestions, that will be my first.

For the same reason we like to bitch and moan about people that bitch and moan.

Definition of a Puritan: Someone who is deathly afraid that somewhere, there is someone, having fun.

What, starting this thread again???

No idea John.

Dont see why people cant play what they like and be left to enjoy it.

After all its such a personal hobby, why bother venting about anothers personal choice?

Just play what you like and have fun with it.

The old adage, "If you cant say anything nice, dont say anything at all" works for me.

My comments from below stand.

TMP link

Here we go with the "haters" word again. Sense of proportion, please gentlemen…

Doug

Another good question is why do you continue to stir this pot? There's no answer.

Some of us would be glad to just have an opponent within 200 miles

I guess the reason people "hate" FOW probably runs along the same lines of why you used to "dump" on DBX. You have decided to stop; they have not.

It's a personality. Normally, they get into politics and screw up everybody's life.

Thanks for taking the hit for the rest of us, John.

I wasn't aware that I did.

What is flames of war?

Jaz
Http://6sided.net

because people take things personally they have no reason too.

And they make assumptions.

they make it about them, when it isn't.

You can not control what another person does/likes/says/believes, so why get exorcised over it? You can only control what you do/like/say/believe.

"Am I allowed to say "Shut up and go away!" to the Haters without going to the DH?"

No John your are not, you know perfectly well that it a dog house able offence.

"Why do we have to bitch and moan about how others play?"

If we don't do that we'll have to moan about how they smell.

Your faith in humanity is impressive John.

Sadly reaching out to people with reasoned arguement will never prevent illogical predjudice.

Because for some people, that's their real hobby.

:-)

Kids today, old stick. Poor manners.

Join me for a brandy and cigar in the drawing room?

Psychologically speaking, the behavior smacks of the insecurities some gamers feel about themselves and their hobby.

If someone else plays an "unrealistic" game, the implication is that I play a "realistic" game--therefore mine is more respectable, honorable, and befitting a man of intelligence, taste and a vast knowledge of history.

Yeah, maybe, but it doesn't change the fact I (and the rest of us) are playing with toy soldiers like they meant something.

A little self knowledge prevents mountains of unnecessary BS.

TVAG

Another good question is why do you continue to stir this pot?

Because on yet another harmless FoW thread, the Haters™ pile on from the second post on that thread, and I am getting sick and tired of it.

And I will continue to bitch and moan about the bitches and moaners.

Genetics

So what if Flames of war is "unrealistic"

So you admit it?

Actually, it is no more realistic than any other game we play.

We have to talk about something I suppose.

I can't help thinking that FOW bashing, like GW bashing, is all those radical and independant minded gamers sticking it to 'the man'.

Where 'the man' is anyone who tries to actually make a living out of wargaming.

Constructive criticism should not be construed as 'hating' of course, although some people find it hard to spot the difference. I once made the mistake of actually believing a game designer when they said they wanted feedback about their rules. That was an interesting experience and not one I'll repeat in a hurry.

Broken record…

Even non-constructive criticism isn't necessarily hate…

We could do with a link to the thread that has ruffled the learned gentleman's feathers so much then we can tell him if it is hate or not and advise him on his further course of action.

Doug

Maybe it is your catharsis :)

It's one of those squeaky toys …

Most dogs fixate on toys that squeak … the more the toy squeaks, the more they worry at it … the more they worry at it the more it squeaks.

When the squeak finally wears out, the dog loses interest.

Boring though it may be for everyone else, this toy keeps on squeaking …

Just a thought

Phil

The same reason some people bitch about "Where Historicon is going to be held"….or "Why so and so shouldn't be on Dancing With The Stars"….or "Why Kim K's baby bump is so important."

People are people.
Some like FoW.
Some don't.
I've played it, and given it a "eh"…and to be honest, the last couple of games I played, (last one being at Gencon), it wasn't a game but a "Let's see how quick the Germans can win this…"

I don't hate the game…I think they have some nice terrain pieces, (I have some of their Italian stuff), and lots of their trucks… I balked at their price for the M24 Platoon…

It's not my cup of tea…For those that like it, have fun.

I don't bash it..and you don't see me making many posts about it, other than the gripe about the M24 prices…

People are people John…just ignore them or they will get the best of you…

I hate haters.

Because it is a disease and must be eradicated. Any outbreak must be contained and purified with fire. Actually, I have nothing against FOW. Games Workshop, on the other hand…..

People bitch and moan about how other people play wargames because other people do it wrong. Thought it was obvious.

'Haters' is the used the same way that 'racist' or 'bigot' is – to assume a moral high ground and shut down any argument or discussion. An overused word if ever I heard one.

Why do you feel the need to dump on it, and by extension its players, just because it's not your cup of tea?

To rescue them from their ignorance.

Aren't we "supposed" to be tolerant of everything except intolerance?

Intolerance will not be tolerated here.

I thought the bit about cannibal women and boobs had promise but the thread seems to have lost its way after that.

If we'd stop bringing up these threads then there wouldn't be a forum for them to bitch.

It's very simple.

"Love me, love my dog."

People take a rejection of "their" rules as a personal affront.

People feel that if EVERYONE isn't playing the rules they like, it's a rejection of them. If someone says their rules are "unrelistic" then it is taken that they are being called stupid and ifnorant for playing them.

That's stage one.

Stage two is that in all too many wargamers is the completely misquided belief that they are a nascent military genius, an unrecognized diamond in the rough. They believe that if they win a game of Stalingrad they really could have won the real war battle of Stalingrad. Thw proof of this is their games where they have won and to call these games unrealistic means that their fondest delusion is pointed out as a delusion. They have bought the Emperor's new clothes second hand.

It's a game, only a game, it has no meaning, no predictive or conclusion value- just a game.

But people have invested so much time money, and romantic involvement in it that it becomes personal.

To quote Lambert in Alien:"I like griping."

I no longer play DBx because I no longer enjoy it. I have never tried FOW because I am not really interested in gaming WW2. I play Lasalle because it is finally a Napoleonic *game* that I can enjoy. I no longer play GW because I grew up.

OK that last is a little catty. But I don't really care what you play or how you play it. Heck, I'll still talk to you even if you do play War of 1812 with AWI figures.

I played FOW a couple of times. thought it was silly and now I don't think about it unless it comes up on TMP.

"They are like missionaries trying to get the cannibal women to cover their boobs. They never let up!"
Really, John, have you ever experienced the terrifying sight of missionary's boobs ? One would most certainly not wait for the cannibal women, but would cover them as fast as one can !

Moaning and bitching CAN be helpful to decide who will be invited for one's next game and who won't (;-)).

I think given any group large enough, the variety of personalities and preferences will always result in differences of opinion and if someone wants a thread called "Why I hate FOW" or one called "Why FOW is the greatest thing ever." More power to them and they can compare their opinions with others who may agree or disagree but clearly either thread invokes comment, pro or con.

What I don't appreciate is snark, from any side, on a thread where someone is either asking a straightforward question such as an AAR or a painting question. When someone says they are painting Pzkw IV's for FOW, responding with "FOW sucks, why don't you use ABC rules" is neither helpful nor polite. Equally when someone genuinely questions a rule and gets called a hater, that doesn't promote good manners either such as "We played a late war game yesterday and I thought the TD rules were really over the top.", that's not hating and calling it such doesn't add anything to the rules discussion.

I suspect it is fundamentally an Internet thing as I rarely see people in real life, in person, running down another persons game while playing although sadly, rarely isn't the same as never.

Good question – I like to small c catholic about wargaming, i.e. if you like a set of rules and enjoy playing them, good for you! I don't like to criticize rules I have never played if for no other reason than I might actually like them if I played them

I don't, for example, like zombies much – but, then again, most people who like to play zombie games probably don't much care for powdered wigs, lace or tricornes, which I love – so I think we should just game on!

I liked FoW. I just don't like the miniatures battlefront produces anymore. Their quality control slipped too much and I had a bad experience with their customer service treating me like the bad guy after they sold me shoddy models that shouldn't have passed an inspection by a blind man, much less anyone with eyes!

FoW has some good, solid mechanics to it. Simply and streamlined. I am particularly a fan of the logic behind their troop quality ratings. It makes perfect sense to me that Veteran troops would be harder to shoot at than conscripts versus the idea that the mechanic should be Veterans shoot better than Conscripts. The morale rating is simple, though I can't say I like it more than the morale rating system for 40K, but it is immensely easier.

I can't comment much on the tank portion of it. It's been so long since I've played I don't remember vehicle rules all that well… I am also a bigger fan of infantry combat, so I find it easier to remember infantry rules.

I wonder how well the FoW infantry stats would work for 28mm skirmish? Obviously would need to double or triple all the weapon ranges I think…. but otherwise, I think could work pretty well.

And it's interesting that this thread attracts so many responses. Not only do we love talking about how we like or hate FOW, we love talking about talking about loving or hating FOW.

As has been said above, its an opportunity to give the impression that they know their history…

And yes, it should be ignored, except when the levels of it are likely to discourage perfectly good opponents away from playing in conventions, which seems to draw these 'knowlegeable' bystanders like moths to a flame….

And just for record, I KNOW that tanks didn't operate side by side! Ground scale, people, Groundscale!

You play your way. Have fun. If I don't like panzer parks roaming on a game table I can play a different game.

My problem isn't with FOW it's with the company that produces "the FOW Hobby"!!

For instance, the very day they announce they're working on an errata book for the Version 3 rules they announce Phil is already working on the Version 4 rules! Then they also announce because they're reprinting many of the books to bring them in line with Version 3, and reintroducing the Vietnam War the Barbarosa Book is being kicked down the road another year! It's already 6 years over due!

They continue to do what they declared from the mountain tops ten years ago they would not do!! So I will continue to comment on their "hobby"!

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