"Soviet tank question" Topic

I have recently started collecting 3mm moderns… got the bug after downloading Lock n Load's Dawns Early Light game. As it is not my primary area of interest, I find myself scratching the ol' noggin on a few points as I try to become more knowledgeable on the subject.

In the Lock n Load games, they are heavy on the T72 tanks (set in 1985)…however, now as I am reading up on the subject it appears the T64 was more common in Soviet armies stationed along the front in East Germany.

Is there any loose breakdown of the type of Soviet tanks I should be collecting? Heavy T64? T80? And where does the T72 fit in?

Opposite BAOR, 3 Shock Army had T-64 replaced gradually by T-80 during the mid 80s on. Not sure without digging out notes but 8 Guard Army around Berlin was T-80. The T-72 equipped the NVA.

Tally Ho!

If I am not mistaken the T-72 was a T-64 upgrade whereas the T-80 was a redesign attempt. I would think the T-64 was more common in front line service. I think LockNLoad uses more T-72 because they are more of a match for the NATO tanks. Playing that game as Soviets with T-64 is very difficult.
I am not sure, but I don't think the T-80 production run was any where near that of the earlier T-62,64,72 versions.

As I understand it, T72s were used in limited numbers by the NVA (as Nick says) and also by the Polish Army (the remainder being T55 in both armies) in Western Europe and equipped some Russian Divisions in the Western Military Districts of the Soviet Union who would probably move West in the later Echelons if it hadn't reached Mad Max o'clock.

According to Zaloga the first of the main production T80s (T80B) began equipping 1st Guards Tank Army & 8th Guards Tank Army in 83/84. By 1985 each Div in these Tank Armies had some T80s. I seem to recall reading somewhere (poss in a TMP thread) that units were re-equipped a company at a time rather than whole battalions or regiments converting at once. It appears that units could have a mix of T64s & T80s (and possibly T62). Also the Motor Rifle Division's independent tank battalion had T55s right up to the end of the Cold War.

As above, T72s for the NVA on the central front, although iirc T72s turned up in numbers on the southern front. I wouldn't dis the T64, certainly not in its later versions against M60s, Leopard 1 and Chieftan.

Once all the Chobham ubertanks start turning up it was a different story, but to my mind we'd won WW3, sorry, 'The Cold War' by then.

If I am not mistaken the T-72 was a T-64 upgrade whereas the T-80 was a redesign attempt.

IIRC this is not quite correct. The T-64 and the T-72 were designed in parallel, with the T-72 being the "back-up" design in case the T-64 turned out to be a failure, and to equip 2nd line units. The T-72 and the T-64 are superficially similar, but in detail completely different, with different turrets, hulls, and suspension. The T-80 was more the upgrade of the T-64, with initial versions IIRC having a similar turret to the T-64, but with an upgraded hull.

Also IIRC the NVA had only 27 T-72s of a unique type not reproduced anywhere else (I don't remember the deetails -- used the hull from one T-27 variant and the turret from another -- but the Tamiya 1/35 kit is an accurate representation, and not accurate for any other T-72 variant).

Damon.

"I seem to recall reading somewhere (poss in a TMP thread) that units were re-equipped a company at a time rather than whole battalions or regiments converting at once."

I recall seeing something about that, and also seeing an image of an entire regt of T-64 lined up at the rail head adjacent to their bks, next image T-80 were unloading in trundling around the bks. In another at a MRR Bks a new POL area was built, Kraz tanker trucks turned up, followed soon by the T-80s,

Tally Ho!

The T-64, T-72 and T-80 were made by competing design houses each battling fiercely for the ear of the Defence Ministry. No design house managed to capture the pole position for long before the lobbying of one of the other design houses displaced them and their products from favouritism. As senior figures in the Defence establishment came and went, their preferred products were selected. In the end, they were producing three different, but essentially similar in function, battle tanks at the same time. Logistical nightmare. Such was life in the old Soviet Union.

As has been said, the different types were competing designs. T-80B was initially deployed to Germany in complete divisions, but production soon slowed to a crawl and they were soon being deployed in company penny-packets to T-64 battalions.

BMP-2 was similarly delivered in small numbers, with BMP-1 battalions replacing a company or two at a time with BMP-2.

Aha! I knew I'd saved this somewhere. This was in an earlier TMP thread, but my apologies for not recording the author:

"Soviet tank deployment in Central Europe in the 1970s-1980s is a sad tale. Essentially, in the mid-1970s the Soviet High Command decided to re-equip GSFG in short order with the 'premium' tank T64A. The plan for re-equipment was 6-7 divisions (2000 tanks) a year, so that the Group of Soviet Forces Germany (GSFG) would be completely re-equipped in 3-4 years. T-64As began arriving in 1976 in 16 and 35 divisions (and were mistaken by Western intel to be T-72s – hence the beginning of the myth that T-72s were in GSFG).

At first re-equipment went quite quickly, helped by the stripping of T-64As from divisions in the interior USSR, and in 1977 six tank or Motor Rifle divisions were re-equipped. But the single tank plant producing T-64As (Kharkov, Leningrad insisted on their T-80 and Nizhny Tagil on their T-72)) couldn't keep up the initial pace. Each year after that the number of divisions in GSFG re-equipped fell. By 1980 they were down to only two divisions a year – and hence many GSFG were still equipped with T-62.

At the same time, in 1980 the Soviet government unilaterally withdrew 1000 tanks and 20000 men from GSFG. In reality most of these tanks were T-55s, T-62s and T-10Ms from training and border regiments.By the end of 1980 the Soviet High Command were getting worried their plan was falling down. This was no doubt exacerbated when the rate of re-equipment dropped to only about one division in 1981. Meanwhile, reliability problems plagued the T-64 through the 1970s, at least in some units (some say sabotage was involved, or deliberate mis-reporting – this is symptomatic of the ongoing extreme conflict and hostility between the various supporters of the competing Russian tank design houses).

In 1982 the T-64B began shipping to GSFG. Initially equipment was on a scale of one company per battalion of T-64s. This allowed the replaced T-64As to be cascaded down to T-62 units, speeding up re-equipment to an extent. During 1982 the decision was taken to have the GSFG equipped with two types of MBTs: the T-80 from Leningrad and the existing Kharkov T-64 (in effect abandoning the 1970s plan to standardise on one MBT).

In the first quarter of 1983 the first T-80Bs began shipping into GSFG in line with the new dual tank strategy. Initially the deployment pattern was to 1st Tank Army and 8th Army. T64Bs went to 3rd "Shock" (as it was known to NATO) and 20th Army on the scale of one company per battalion.

From 1984 the T80B deployment pattern was gradually changed to a more general scattering of T80s in company packets across GSFG, rather than reserving them for 1st and 8th Armies. T80BVs and T64BVs began appearing in 1985.
Finally, by the end of 1985, the re-equipment with new generation tanks envisaged in 1975 was virtually complete. GSFG had about 7700 tanks, with 5700 in the 11 tank and 8 motor rifle divisions, and about 2000 MBTs in training regiments and repair and reserve depots (including still about 1000 T-62s).

In the decade the re-equipment took, NATO had begun deploying the Leopard 2 and then Abrams MBTs which significantly outclassed the basic T-64A which still formed the majority of GSFG tanks in 1985, as well as introducing numerous ATGMs and new tank gun ammunition. The Soviet High Command then decided to switch to an all T-80 force, but this was never completed before GSFG was disbanded (numbers grew from 838 at the start of 1987 to nearly 3000 T-80s by the end of 1990). GSFG tanks remained deployed in a mosaic or patchwork pattern with little standardisation, even within regiments. The grand vision of a rapid re-equipment of GSFG with a single premium tank was unfulfilled."

Aha! I knew I'd saved this somewhere. This was in an earlier TMP thread, but my apologies for not recording the author:

The author would appear to be collins355. TMP link

On the subject of T72s in Germany, my understanding is that the NVA concentrated most of their T72s in the 9th Panzer Division, which was fully equipped with them by the end of the DDR. The other NVA Panzer Division, the 7th Panzer, only had two battalions worth by the time of reunification and relied mostly on T55s.

For what it's worth, the 9th Panzer was headquarted at Eggesin. This means that NVA T72s would be more likely to be encountered on the North German Plain than in the Fulda Gap.

This is all based on my limited research of the subject of NVA T72s for my own wargaming purposes.