"How good is good enough?" Topic

This is, of course, something that can never be answered in an objective way, but since pasting a previous message TMP link on this forum, I've been talking to various potential customers and spending a lot of time explaining that being a professional dependent upon your sculpting to pay the mortgage and utility bills is rarely about labouring for hours to produce exquisite work or the best you can do, but about being able to work quickly and establishing the minimum standard a customer will be happy with. For after all there's no point losing a job by quoting £800.00 GBP for the masterpiece you'd like to sculpt when the client only has a budget of £200.00 GBP and would be more than happy with what you can do for just £150.00 GBP To that end I've worked on 40mm sculpts for less than £50.00 GBP each and at the other extreme I've been involved in a corporate project where some 25mm figures ended up costing the client over £1,000.00 GBP each, and in both cases my customers were really pleased and went on to put repeat business my way.

I've worked across many model making markets outside of war-gaming and I've found that whilst there will always be some discerning collectors or a few extremely wealthy individuals willing to pay what ever it costs for great work, numerically they make up such a small percentage of any market that catering for these is not going to be a way to build a viable business. In most cases customers are lead more by what it says on the packaging than what's in it. In other words if the label says it's the right subject matter and the price tag says it's cheaper than some other manufacturers version of the same subject it will sell well irrespective of quality. Of course another big advantage of producing cheaper sculpts is that a fixed budget can be spread much further in producing a wider product range, so as a retailer you are far more likely to have the subject matter the next customer wants to buy. A process of "reductio absurdum" would therefore suggest that the most profitable business would come from producing a single unidentifiable amorphous blob that could be sold and labelled as anything from a sci-Fi space ranger to a Napoleonic rifleman, one which was so cheap it could almost be given away, but presumably customers must have some standards and draw the line somewhere.

The most profitable (if not artistically rewarding) product range I've ever worked on was a range of more than 200 different 40mm figures sculpted in little more than three calendar months (including time off at the weekends). To put it bluntly they were c**p, but they were a better quality of c**p than that particular model making market was used to, and could be sold more cheaply than the competition, so they sold well and continue to do so having paid for themselves very quickly.

So to repeat my earlier question; How good is good enough? Do other sculptors always aim for ten out of ten and work for artistic pride and satisfaction or do you find that four out of ten is usually more than good enough for most of your customers. If you are a manufacturer or retailer how do you establish the quality of a product line? Do you simply accept what the one sculptor you use keeps producing? Do you keep shopping around for different sculptors capable of delivering better results for the same cost? Do you define a quality or a "look" and search for the cheapest quote to produce that standard? If you are consumer do you buy based upon getting the greatest quantity for your money irrespective of manufacturer or quality? Do you favour certain manufacturers because of the quality of their products or because of the particular subjects they sell?

Its a spurious, open ended and very subjective topic but having spent a good while away from gaming I'm curious to see how this market compares to the other model making disciplines I've spent more time working for recently.

Cheers

Aidan

As a company that looks for outsourced vehicle and figure makers I want to try and get a product that is better than my competitors.

As a builder of my own terrain that I also sell, I make it as good as I can given that it needs to be able to be cast many times from a mould.

Many people have commented that the level of detail on my RDF 6mm infantry is exceptional.
I am glad to hear these comments as I paid a LOT for them as I wanted them to stand out of the crowd.

I also have a look that I want, some scultptors get that look and can make stuff for me, other stuff may be 'better' but if the look and feel is wrong I won't use them, even if they were half the price.

As a consumer I want the best assuming the price is not too crazy.
I would pay £5.00 GBP for a 25mm figure if I really liked it.
If the same sort of figure but half the detail was available for £1.00 GBP I would still use the £5.00 GBP figure.

Angel Barracks

I've just taken a quick look at your RDF infantry on your web site and the style and quality reminds me of some 6mm Sci-Fi work I did for another AB miniatures a few years back (no not the larger figures sculpted by Anthony Barton either)

Here's not the place to discuss such things but if you wanted to drop me an e-mail aidan@aidan-campbell.co.uk perhaps we could talk about what you consider "a lot" in terms of prices

I found myself favoring manufacturer that has more complete range. I love Pendraken for that particular reason. I like Rebel Minis & Khurasan because they have some miniatures range that are spoiled with choices. Sculpt quality is secondary to this, but still important.

It is like art (or porn), I know it when I see it.

An example of too low a quality is Irregular WWII line (6mm), just looks like blobs of metal. A real pity since some of their other lines are quite good.

Ah yes, but don't confuse old moulds that are useless with bad sculpts.
I have seen some very early Irregular 6mm Napoleonics and some much later, the difference in quality is staggering even though they are the same figure.

NOT saying that is the case here though.

Depends on the goal of course.

Need 1000 spearmen for your army, I guess 5 out of 10 quality will be ok.
Need to make an army of just 5 troopers, better be 8 out of 10 or higher..

If you benchmark your quality against the genre leaders, for example in historical the Perry's spring to mind, then you can match quality expectations to price.

Jaz
6sided.net

The goals we have with our 40mm Trident Designs miniatures is to have some of the finest figures possible, coupled with the most complete ranges, coupled with a reasonable price. Example is our AWI range with over 1,000 items and still growing and some 40 different head gear which is continuing to be added to. Our 40mm ACW and Vanguard ranges will follow along the same lines. We have chosen to remain focused on three ranges for the moment until we are comfortable that we can move on to another period.
Doug at Miniature Service Center

Thanks for the opinions, it's probably no surpise that different people want and look for different things, and that many of those are subjective things that can't be quantified in a simple manner that rates one opinion or product as better than another.

I suppose that so long as a client can clearly articulate what it is that's important to them so that a sculptor can deliver what is required, and that both sculptor and retailer make money out of any collaboration then it probably doesn't matter if that's turning over great quantities of stuff for low prices at the bottom end of the market or aiming for a much more selective and discerning part of the market where prices are much higher. The end consumers will vote with their wallets and show which were the good decissions and which were the bad ones

In about 1980 the folks at RP wondered how Citadel was able to produce so many new models and we so few. I explained sculpting was a job where time spent became exponential as you approached maximum quality. Like accelerating to the speed of light. I said I could make 10 figures in 40 hours which a random group of miniatures enthusiasts could not tell from Citadel product. At the time I was making about three figures a week and the other RP sculptors were lucky to average two.

I ended up winning the bet with 12 figures and learned two things, one is most people can't tell or don't care enough about quality to pay what it costs and two; if sculpting ever became a job were I just did the minimum required for the money I would quit and do something else.

IMO the reason the world is full of junk is because people take this road. I'd rather have one thing of great beauty than a house full of rubbish.

Apologies if this is a bit harsh, but if there is one thing I feel strongly about it is this. I believe it is the root of so many things wrong with Western civilization.

How good is good enough? As good as you can do and then better. I'm not saying you should allow perfectionism to be an excuse for never finishing, the work which never finishes is you. The things you complete along the way will always be imperfect and you have to let them go but each work should be an opportunity to improve, not a job you get done for money. If you have that attitude you should work on an assembly line, not in the arts.

Well said Tom. Very well said.

Matthew

one is most people can't tell or don't care enough about quality to pay what it costs

So true across all aspects of life.
I find this especially true in the UK regarding customer service, people expect bilge and that is what they get.
Now that bilge is the norm, people think that simply getting what they asked for is exceptional service.

Agreed, Tom.

How good is good enough? As good as you can do and then better.

This is a great attitude for art, but IMO, not always applicable for retail. If everthing is made to the highest standard, everything will be incredibly expensive.

If this was the way all products were made, most people couldn't afford clothes for their backs, let alone miniatures.

Not everyone who buys miniatures is looking for art. Some, like me, just want "toys". Toys are a luxury not a necessity. I don't want to pay £6.00 GBP-£8GBP for a work of art that's 8-9 out of 10. I'd much rather pay £3.00 GBP for a nice servicable miniature(5-6 out of 10). I'll even accept lower quality if you offer something no one else does, as long as the price reflects that lower quality.

Sculpting can be art and it can be a trade. When you're trying to sell something to people that aren't interested in art, then you need tradesmen more than artists.

Tom,

I have to agree with you entirely, as a sculptor I want the artistic stimulation and satisfaction of trying to push my boundaries and improve, Conectari I think sums it up well in terms of the distinction between artisan tradesmen and artists. I've seen the hourly rates Mr Meier quotes and in terms of paying mortages and utility bills I can and have earned more from sculpting.

However when I look at the quality of what Mr Meier gets paid to sculpt and what I get paid to sculpt I think I've reached that point in life where I have to ask myself why am I doing this, is the pay all it's about?

Most of the work I've produced professionally I won't put my name to, and don't include in my portfolio which is a shameful thing to admit as an artist, but why is it that in the modern world being sucessful at making money should make you feel grubby? The very reason I first posted here was in the hope of finding work that was a bit more stimulating working for clients that wanted something a bit better than many I have worked for, work that I would pleased to say yes I did that, work where I didn't mind dropping my hourly rate to go the extra mile.

I suppose the point of my enquiry here was to find out if other people genuinely don't care about quality or can't distinguish great work from average, or if there's a large proportion of people in this industry that are as cheesed off as I am that the only way to make decent living on which you can support your self is to sacrifce any artistic integrity and churn out indifferent work to keep your hourly rate of pay high enough to actually live on.

I suppose the answer is that a large proportion of people don't want or can't afford to pay for quality and many more have no first hand experience of what good quality can actually mean so think they've already got it.

Do we salute the heros who try to fight to change this, or do we see DonQuixote fighting his own brand of windmill?

everything will be incredibly expensive.

Not in the case of anything reproducible, such as miniatures. It doesn't matter much how much the original cost if you are going to make tens of thousands of copies. The problem is with so many scales and styles sales are low and as I said people don't agree about what constitutes quality. The only definition of quality which makes sense is the economist's one, 'whatever makes you decide to buy it' and by that measure the most important quality a product can have is the marketing.

why am I doing this, is the pay all it's about.

What I've done is give up making things to please other people, I make them to please myself and if other people like them, great. I demand a minimum amount I need to live and I get the greatest satisfaction from my work. I would choose to keep doing it if I won the lottery (which would be very strange since I don't buy tickets). I've never wanted more than a reasonable level of comfort. Many years ago I had an interesting exchange with a business associate who pointed out I could make a lot of money by doing something morally dubious. I said I had enough money already and that I didn't expect or want to live a life of more than average material comfort. I get satisfaction from work and relationships, not things and I don't need wealth to buoy up my self respect. I've seen plenty of wealthy people who I honestly pity because all they have is money.

You need money to live yes but get the priority right, the money is to facilitate living, selling your life for money is like selling your horse to buy oats to feed it.

As a person who has been in "the Trades" all his life, I must object to any implied connection between the work of tradesmen and lower quality. Even utilitarian objects that could never aspire to high art have qualities of their own that can (and should) be elevated and perfected, and can be a source of pride to their makers.

Tom Meier speaks the truth.

Lowered expectations lead inexorably to lower quality in all things, an unending downward spiral which undermines the standards that artists and craftsmen with integrity are struggling to maintain in a world where they are less and less appreciated.

I can't comprehend the reasoning behind the idea that luxury items (i.e., wargame miniatures) should be cheaper simply because they are not necessities, even if that means sacrificing the quality. The whole point of miniature wargaming is aesthetics. If it's not all about the beauty of the miniature spectacles we can create with these little works of art, then just use pawns and meeples for your games, or play boardgames.

Tom,

I remember a conversation I had with my sister once.

She said she wanted the best paid job she could possibly get so she could retire as early as she could so as to actually start doing something interesting with her life. At the age of 22 she had fast tracked through university, gained various financial qualifcations and was training accountants.

I said I wasn't interested in the money I wanted to to do something interesting with my life now. I spent ten years in and out of various courses of academic study and voluntary work living off minmial grants and allowances. From there when the money ran out I went into a very well paid professional career that demanded 100hrs a week and put me in hospital with exhaustion. It taught me two things; 1) I can live on very little cash 2) working for a living stinks so if you're going to have to do it, earn the highest hourly rate you can so that you can afford to work for as few months of the year as possible to give you plenty of time to do the other things.

There are plenty of unfortunates who get paid a pittance for doing something they hate, and more without any kind of paid work at all.

I count myself fortunate to be in a position whereby I can make good money and get to do something vaguely related to an interest of mine doing so.

There is no perfect solution and as the seasons pass and we all grow older we all manage the work, life, money balance differently. I suppose my problem may be one of being conditioned to assume work must automatially be a bad and stressful experience whatever you are doing. Perhaps as I get older and the memories of that brief period of professional collar and tie lifestyle fade, I'm willing to spend longer working if the work itself is more interesting and provides satisfaction in itself rather than merely through funding something else..

I can't comprehend the reasoning behind the idea that luxury items (i.e., wargame miniatures) should be cheaper simply because they are not necessities, even if that means sacrificing the quality.

So people who can't afford £7.00 GBP miniature works of art shouldn't bother participating in the hobby? People producing lower quality £3.00 GBP (or less) minis should give up and close up shop?

The Assault Group produce some nice miniatures. I'd class many of them as 5-6 out of 10. You can get 4 ultra moderns for £6.50 GBP. I like these miniatures. I have many of them. The quality could be alot higher, but then the price would be higher as well. For my tastes and purposes, higher quality simply isn't needed.

If it makes you feel better, think of them as "pawns" with a little more detail.

As an artist, you have an obligation to yourself to try to fullfil your artistic needs. I don't have an obligation to fund that with my money. Which is not to say that I don't believe in supporting art for art's sake, I just don't think you should expect your idea of how to do things to automatically be a successful business model.

I must object to any implied connection between the work of tradesmen and lower quality.

If not clear, the point I was trying to make is that when I need my house painted, I'm not going to call an artist to do the job. When I want a toy, I'm not going to the sculptor who only produces art. There is a difference in quality. The house painter could do a better job if he took 3 times as long and charged 3 times as much, but that's not what I'm looking for.

I would rather someone produce 5 different minis I like and can afford, than 1 mini in the same amount of time that I can't afford, no matter how beautiful it is.

I feel like Tom describes sometimes – I really want to be given the time by my customers to paint them armies that would knock their socks off with the quality.

Sadly the reality is different – if I did that I'd only paint for the super-rich and they probably wouldn't appreciate the skill involved anyway and be lured away by something shinier and more exclusive the next day.

The Arts & Crafts movement had similar ideas but they were a bunch of rich loonies with their heads in the clouds and a grasp of reality that was stunningly inadequate. Industrial design took their ideas and made them accessible to millions by machine production.

The idea that this is a new thing is nonsense, its been happening since the year dot in some branch of human activity or other. I'm sure Bronze smiths got together over a pint of mead and blamed iron for their ills and the decline of civilisation.

Not everyone sees the hobby as you do War Artisan, not all of us see our armies as works of art – to many of us they are merely model armies. Nicely painted but not perfect and still infintely better than boardgame counters.

I feel like I have perhaps touched a few raw nerves by asking this question here, one where feelings run deep and opinions are bound to differ.

In all walks of life we all want a little bit more of whatever it is in question, who we are is defined by how we handle the disappointment of not living in an ideal world.

consectari – It is not reasonable to assume that someone disagrees with you because your point wasn't clear. They may just think you're wrong. I understood your position perfectly, even if I don't understand why someone would hold to that position. If fine, well sculpted miniatures are five times as expensive then I will get by with one fifth as many.

You are looking to save a buck, sacrificing quality for quantity because having more miniatures pleases you more than having better miniatures. Though there is obviously a place in the market for you and others who think along the same lines, I believe it's a good thing that not all consumers share your outlook. If all wargame miniatures were "pawns with a little more detail" I would get out of the hobby, because owning them would give me no pleasure.

Tom, Aidan, and all the Don Quixotes of the world: Stand fast, and guard your vision.

Not everyone sees the hobby as you do

That's hardly surprising. I wouldn't expect them to. And I don't expect to convince anyone that they should see it my way; I was only giving voice to those few who do see it as I do, as few as they may be.

I strongly suspect that there are many, many more who see it as consectari does, but I have never been swayed by majority opinion on any subject (much less such a personal pursuit as a hobby). I see it the way I see it.

To quote the character of Emperor Joseph II, from the script of "Amadeus":

"Well . . . there it is."

(Edit: for those unfamiliar with the scene, the young Mozart is arguing that the libretto for his new opera should be in German, against the majority opinion of the court who would prefer the more traditional Italian.)

So people who can't afford £7.00 GBP GBP miniature works of art shouldn't bother participating in the hobby?

If you sculpt a beautiful figure for $1,500 USD and you sell 15,000 of them the sculpting was 10 cents of the cost, if you sell 150,000 it's one cent. The rest of the costs are or can be the same. In fact if you assume the base manufacturing cost of a figure is £2.00 GBP GBP the only reason sculpting would make a figure £7.00 GBP GBP is if you expected to sell about a hundred of them. if you paid a really princely sum for the sculpting, 200.

People producing lower quality £3.00 GBP GBP (or less) minis should give up and close up shop?

There is no good reason not to pay for a better sculpt except that you expect few sales so sculpting fees are a significant cost. Sculpting is a fixed cost independent of sales (unless you pay a royalty). Most of the figures I make myself to sell are less than £3.00 GBP GBP (less than 2 if you buy enough of them at once} and I didn't skimp on the sculpting.

However I wasn't talking about business practicalities, the question was a general one and I took it from my own point of view as a sculptor. From a business perspective the most important 'quality' a product can have is good marketing. By that I mean not only advertising but knowing exactly how to pitch to the market without going too low or over their heads. Sculpting quality, meaning finesse and technical control, is not very important.

Tom, (or other retailers willing to chip in), you mention the sale of 15,000 units or even 150,000 units. If these sorts of sales are common and feasible on great sculpts then as you say the extra cost of an amazing sculpt over an average sculpt is trivial.

However, how common is it that any design will sell 15,000 copies let alone 150,000? Sure the likes of the mighty GW with a huge marketing dept may achieve it quite quickly, but among the majority of the market who are small cottage industry retailers what quantity of sales do you try to set your break even point on a miniature at, and how quickly do you feel you need to (or expect) to reach that number of sales to break even.

I suspect based upon what most are willing to pay for a sculpt that they calculate break even points at a somewhat lower volume of sales or need to recoup costs much quicker.

Maybe us here in the UK under-estimate just how big gaming in the US is, afterall almost everything in the US is cheaper based upon lower development costs pro-rata, I supose with time the global economy and internet sales will average that out for all of us.

I completely agree with Mr. Meier, but would it be churlish of me to point out that there might be a time when a less-than-perfect sculpt that is actually available, might be better than one that never exists?

You see, I bought the beginnings of a Nativity set back in 2006 when my daughter was 7 years old. I was planning to add to it over the years and give it to her when she leaves for college, but she's graduating in a mere 4 years . . .

I'd like to say that I'm neither offended nor trying to offend.

To me, it appeared many of the opinions offered were presented as applying in all cases, not just applying in some cases. I was trying to represesnt my segment of the hobby.

I suspect some may have thought I was presenting my opinion as applying in all cases, but I only meant it to apply to myself and people who share my views.

I'm aware there is a market for high quality, high cost miniatures. I just wanted to make it clear that was only one segment of the market.

Aidan Campbell asked for input and I felt he deserved a different view than "As good as you can do and then better".

To me, this is just a lively (and enjoyable) discussion with some intelligent stangers on the internet. I appreciate the oppurtunity to participate.

she's graduating in a mere 4 years . . .

The problem is that's one of my own projects and it always gets shunted to the back of the line when the schedule goes catawumpus. 2007 is when my wife went back to work and I became the main caregiver for the kids, reducing my available sculpting time from 50 to 30 hours a week, with outstanding commitments and interruptions I lost control of my schedule completely. Going to get back on it this year, even if I have to resort to kickstarter.

However, how common is it that any design will sell 15,000 copies let alone 150,000?

The reason 150,000 is not feasible is the hobby is so chaotic. 15,000 is certainly quite possible and the difference there between paying the sculptor $300 USD and 1,500 is eight cents, not exactly a deal breaker. Even at 5,000 the difference is only a quarter. My point is there is no excuse for the larger companies to produce inferior goods but interestingly the better quality often comes from small manufacturers.

one segment of the market…I felt he deserved a different view than,"As good as you can do and then better".

I wasn't addressing the question of the market. I was talking about addressing life. If you just want to make a lot of money my advice would be don't sculpt miniatures at all.

How much of the hobby is sculptors selling directly to players? Serious question, I have no idea.

Anyway, if I'm paying the sculptor directly for a one-off, small run of a limited nature, I'd expect to pay a premium for that effort.

If I'm buying "mass-market" figures from Vendor X, I'm looking to get as many figures for the money available, regardless of what was paid to sculpt them. That piece of the market is between the sculptor and the vendor.

Well one of the reasons I've stayed a one man band is so I dont have to make too many compromises.
Its a deliberate policy of the 'market makers' to lower expectations of quality it widens the market out to the maximum number of people. I'm constantly amazed at the stuff people will not only buy but pay over the odds for. Constantly amazed at people who dont appear to have ever read a book on the period they game in. In fact I'm just to plain old……………..
I fall asleep thinking 'tomorrow I'll make the perfect horse'

Well this certainly seems to have sparked a debate, so thanks for all the opinions.

I am certainly intrigued by Mr Meier's views about sales of 5000 to 15000 copies of a sculpt being a perfectly attainable target on which to aim to break even.

Obviously war-gaming is a hobby in which miniature figures may be seen as a major part of the hobby, whereas many of the other model making markets I've worked for would consider them as peripheral finishing touches. As such war-gaming is a market where customers may regularly consider buying multiple castings of a specifc sculpt to build a regiment and may buy hundreds, even thousands of different figures each year, whereas some other model makers may only need four different figures as a background detail to a project which may have taken two years to complete.

If you are buying figures as occassional background details then it may well be true that reatilers have to aim to break even on low volumes of sales, most of those I've worked for seem to be working on expectations in the low hundreds of sales over the first few years.

If war-gaming sales in the mid thousands of castings of a single sculpt are common place then retailers really are shooting themselves in the foot by paying such low sums for original sculpts unless it is truly a conscious plan to drive down expectations and keep sculpting a purely amateur or part time activity so as to stop the market being monoplised by a restricted group of more skilled professionals.

I've too much respect for Mr Meier's ability and reputation in this industry to suggest he is in any way wrong, or that the people he sculpts for can't regularly achieve sales well in excess of 5000 units quite quickly. However, is there any possibility that such a privileged position at the top of the tallest tree in the wood masks a view of how much of life is in the leaf litter on the forrest floor?

Are any of the smaller reatailers and producers willing to chip in with views about sales volumes and how these impact upon what they can afford to pay for an original sculpt? Or are such things closely guarded as secrets that might let the cat out of the bag to consumers that for a modest few pennies more a casting they could get something of considerably better quality?

Thanks again to all those who've taken time to keep responding to this thread, having been away from the war-gaming hobby for so long it's a fascinating insite to it from a business point of view.

John Thomas8

you ask how much of the market is players commissioning direct from sculptors cutting out the middle man or retailer.

I can't comment for others and my personal experience is spread widly over many model making markets so is hardly focussed on war gaming.

However, if you take a market like dolls house miniatures, then if you go to any big fair then there will be lots of sculptors with stalls full of original sculpts which they sell to end conusmers/collectors as finished items. They don't take moulds or cast copies you buy a one of a kind item. The going rate for a hand sculpted wigged and dressed 1/12th scale (150mm) miniature in the UK is around £60.00 GBP-£12O. Many more figures are sculpted on request as bespoke commissions making up a sizable percentage of the market. I just don't know how people make money at those prices, actually I know most don't they simply do it for fun and to cover the cost of getting to the convention or fair, but surely half a tank of petrol for the car and £20.00 GBP on an entry ticket would be an easier option!

In disciplines like aviation, maritime and railway modelling figure sculpts (and in respect to some products I use the term loosely) then people buy what ever castings are made avaialble cheaply and rarely do they commission something better as most just don't care. I've had modellers who have commissioned a bespoke model railway locomotive from one of the most famous names in the business for I guess (based upon his typical rates) about £6,000.00 GBP to £8,000.00 GBP quibble over paying £3.00 GBP for a casting of a decent driver to put on the footplate and go eslewhere to spend £1.50 GBP. I'm not saying you don't get the odd decent commission I've had a few from private collectors willing to pay in excess of £200.00 GBP a figure for good sculpts, but they tend to be somewhat of an unexpected surprise

The biggest or most common incident of by-passing the middle man and coming to sculptors directly is clubs or specialist societies commissioning on behalf of their members. I'm regularly asked why there aren't better quality (or any) examples of X Y or Z available in the market, and the usual answer is that producers won't risk the investment on real niche or minority products that won't sell in volume. When I explain that all that's needed to make something commercially viable is a guaranteed number of sales at a specific price, you occassionally find you happen to be talking to a member of some rare and eccentric society all of whom happen to want the same obscure item.

Perhaps the most obscure example of this was an example of a Victorian Royal Mail post box I'd made for one of my own diorama projects. Being for myself and hence unrestricted by the need to make a profit I'd actually researched the design and shape of a mail box appropriate to the geographical region and date I wanted and made a good job of replicating something specific rather than generic. To cut a long story short this was seen by a chap who was a member of an apparantly huge society involved in the research and preservation of old post boxes and I ended up for want of a better description, sculpting "portraits" of individual pillar boxes for collectable mechandise for members of this society.

Are any of the smaller reatailers and producers willing to chip in with views about sales volumes and how these impact upon what they can afford to pay for an original sculpt?

Yes!
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I pay £20.00 GBP for my civilian models.
I make 10p profit per figure.

With say a pack of 5 different figures at £100.00 GBP then
£50.00 GBP on the master mould
£50.00 GBP on the production mould
£30.00 GBP on the initial few spins for stock

You have £230.00 GBP to set up a pack of figures with 5 variants in it.

Let us assume that each pack sold gets you £1.00 GBP profit.

That is 230 packs to break even, or in my case 2300 figures.

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Now let us assume that instead of being £20.00 GBP each they are £75.00 GBP each.

5 different figures at £375.00 GBP then
£50.00 GBP on the master mould
£50.00 GBP on the production mould
£30.00 GBP on the initial few spins for stock

You have £505.00 GBP to set up a pack of figures with 5 variants in it.

Let us assume that each pack sold gets you £1.00 GBP profit.

That is 505 packs to break even, or in my case 5050 figures.

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I would argue that most people, even those that play 6mm will not see the difference between the £20.00 GBP sculpts and the £75.00 GBP sculpts.

So to charge more for the ‘better' is a no-no right away as it simply won't work.

So we have a case of selling 2300 figures to break even versus 5050 to break even.
Common sense says go for the cheaper option.

I have sold about 250 packs of the RDF in about 8 months.
So all being well I should be into actual profit within 2 years.

I have sold about 20 packs of the civilians in 3 months.
So all being well I should be into actual profit within 3 years.

---------------- ----------------------------------- -------------------------------- ----------------------------

Now this would suggest that the more expensive figures are a better return as they will pay for themselves sooner.
However, this is not really the case.

I suspect they sell more as they are soldiers and people need more soldiers than civilians or their games.

Had the RDF been £20.00 GBP per figure instead of the £75.00 GBP would they have sold as well?
If they were as good for sure.
Can you be sure that £20.00 GBP quality from one sculptor will not be as good as £75.00 GBP from another, no of course not.

All I know is that I paid more than most for my RDF as I think they are a nicer sculpt.
And that for me is what I am about, offering what I think is the best value for money I can.

For the main models in the game make them as good as you can.
Suck up the extra costs and hope others see the difference and buy more as a result.
For figures that are not as critical or less likely to be used every time, spend less on them so that you have money to spend on the key models of the game.

Try to sell what you would want to buy.

… to suggest he is in any way wrong.

It seems to me you are thinking about the metal miniatures hobby the way it is now and your own experience in it and I am talking in a more general way about all types of miniature sculpture, large and small companies, metal and plastic. Your initial question did not seem to me to be limited to the specific case of sculpting figures for small runs in metal. In that case the sculpting cost does make a difference but also in that case doesn't it make sense for a figure to cost more? Where can you get fewer than 500 of something fabricated from scratch and expect it to cost no more than a mass produced product?

I would argue that most people, even those that play 6mm will not see the difference between the £20.00 GBP GBP sculpts and the £75.00 GBP GBP sculpts.

And I agree. In fact I have said this many times to people who have wanted me to sculpt for them, "It would not worth it for you". It is why I only take projects in the gaming hobby for my own amusement. The pay has not kept up with inflation. What I ask you to appreciate is from a sculptor's point of view this turns a delightful and engaging activity into something close to drudgery and the pay still sucks. You are not permitted to care about anything but getting the job done as quickly as possible and the pay still sucks. Why do it? If you are going to have a lousy job at least try to get decent pay.

Let me ask you a question. In 1973 when I sold my first sculpt the going rate for a very simple, crude 25mm figure was $60. USD According to the inflation calculator that's $305 USD in today's money. This was for a figure so crude you'd have to really look to find one that bad today and 25mm with roughly half the surface area to be worked that today's 30+mm '28mm' figures have.

By 1982 the going rate in the U.S. was $300 USD for a more sophisticated but still only average by today's standards, still 25mm figure, that's $702 USD in today's money. Nowadays it's more like $400 USD for a 30+mm figure of about the same quality.

What do you suppose happened?

Thanks for taking the time out to keep responding, it means a lot that people are willing to share their experiences and try give me a more rounded view of a market I was last actively involved with as an actual gamer in the late 1980's, though obvioulsy I've done odd bits of work sculpting professionally for gamers since then.

I also hope this is of interest to many casual browsers of this thread as there's probably not a lot of consumers who have ever given a great deal of thought as to why the products they collect cost what they do, or the processes that have to be gone through in order for a manufacturer to decide what sort of price they should retail their goods at.

One of the things nobody has specifcally mentioned yet about factors impacting on retail price is the cost of making a sale. Marketing costs to actually make people aware of your products obvioulsy have to be covered from any "profits". That can be simply running a web site, paying for adverts in magazines or on line forums, through to more involved promotions and marketing.

I attend various trade fairs and exhibtions in order to attract commissions and even small shows can cost a lot for a few square feet of floor space to set up your stand upon, then you've got travel and accomodation costs to cover.

It's surprising how you can go home from a fair with a cash box bulging with money feeling really pleased at making so many sales but realise when you come to tally up the accounts sheet that you are exhausted from having spent the weekend moving half a ton of small bits of metal around the country, driven perhaps 500 miles when tired after spending all day on your feet and all that the extra "profit" you've earned has managed to do is pay for the extra expenses you've incurred attending the show.

Tom asks "what do you suppose happened?" in reference to changing rates of pay for sculpting.

The analagy might be poor but I'm put in mind of British TV. Thirty or forty years ago, we only had three channels, everybody moaned there was nothing worth watching but big budget popular shows got auidiences of more than twenty million viewers.

Now there's endless competition from hundreds of satellite
and digital channels. Although technical production values have moved on allowing cheap programmes to be "better made", none of these channels have got the money to make big budget truly great or creatively inspired TV programmes anymore. A show is now hailed a huge success if it attracts half a million viewers, we all still moan there's nothing on TV worth watching, so put on the endless repeats of the big budget popular shows from thirty or forty years ago.

Does competition ensure more efficient use of resources, or simply spread them too thinly? Does the fact that it's so much easier for enthusiasts to set up "cottage industry" gaming businesses from home as a hobby in their spare time make it that much harder for any one of those businesses to function as a sucessful entity turning over sums of money capable of paying everyone involved a sensible wage?

The market is what it is, it owes nobody any favours and every proffessional is here through choice, but while we all wish that it could be "better" we all mean something different by "better".

Does the fact that it's so much easier for an enthusiast to set up "cottage industry" gaming business from home as a hobby make it that much harder for a business to function as a sucessful entity turning over sums of money capable of paying everyone involved a sensible wage?

Yes I think so.
But then I am reminded of my plumbing days.
There was one local chap that would charge so little per hour he made the rest look like rip off merchants.
He was just operating on a lower standard than the rest.
He had an old clapped out van he never did anything with, no business cards, uniform or office, poor quality tools, did the bare minimum to get the job done using the cheapest parts, etc.

As such he was always busy as he always had the lowest quotes..
He was far from the best though despite having more jobs than better plumbers.

Perception of value is important too.

The analagy might be poor but I'm put in mind of…

I think that's part of it but there were plenty of small companies in 1982 and the whole market was smaller. Ral Partha could expect average sales of about 3,000 in the first year after release, about half that the second and then 500 to 1,000 per year. If sales fell much below 500 they would re-sculpt or drop the piece.

Consider this, in 1982 there were two main scales 25mm and 15mm and the figures made by various manufacturers were by today's standards quite compatible.

The market is what it is, it owes nobody any favours…

I think it would be more accurate to say it is what we make it, it is a product of our culture. In France they have much better quality food than Britain or America. This is because the French recognize quality and care enough to pay for it. Selling poor quality food at a low price is not a good marketing strategy there as it seems to be in the U.S and U.K.

It has always stuck me as strange, when a figure is going to take you a good bit of time to paint and prepare that you would care enough about saving a few cents to buy an inferior product, but if there's one thing experience has taught me it's the wellsprings of decisions are emotional, rationality is how we explain our impulses to ourselves.

Ah but dont forget many actually dont care much about the figures its all about getting an army on the table in the quickest time and for least cost, which is fair enough but as designers we have to care about the figures. Well most of us do anyhow lol
L

Don't forget about "The One True Scale" (joke, don't hang me), 1/72, which Airfix, Revell, etc have been hawking for decades.

Limited poses, worn out molds producing substandard figures towards the ends of runs, and they still move product.

Me, as a gamer, I am kinda stuck between affording to field forces (1,000 mounted/dismounted cav for Brandy Station for example) or making really really eye-catching armies. The former is winning out over the latter, solely because to do the latter it would take YEARS just to buy the figures.

While I appreciate the effort it takes to get from blocks of metal/globs of plastic to quality castings, from a "line-dog" bloke that just wants to push squads around terrain, the costs of sculpting lie with the figure vendors hiring the artists. If it jacks the price of figures beyond what I can swing, golf is a valid alternative hobby.

Now like I said, if I want something one-off, like a Jack Churchill figure with longbow, I'm going to be prepared to pay for top-notch quality.

Tom,

Whilst my limited experience of eating in America was of greed and excessivly huge portions of cheap protein, in Britain there is actually a huge and thriving "foodie" culture with organic farmers markets, artisan buthcers, bakers and fishmongers and you "can" eat far better than most do in France. The same may be hidden away in the US I don' know.

I think the difference bewteen the UK and France is that in England we still carry around the old class system, and there is still a sense of snobbery and wanting to be part of smaller more exclusive groups that the "them" that aren't part of "us" can't join. For a thosuand years since the Norman conquest we've had various small elite groups doing their utmost to "teach" the general populace excatly what their place in life's social pecking order was. To that end "quality" is generally promoted as an exclusive luxury that only other people can have.

In France there's far more of a history of lopping the heads of their aristocracy, or of the civillian masses up-rising, striking and protesting to get more access to the finer things in life and to stop others from telling them what they can and can not expect.

As you explained previously once a better standard is adopted as the norm and can benefit from the same mass market savings as previously lower quality goods they need cost little or no more to produce and it becomes false economy to produce low quality.

The question is, in such a diverse market as gaming, where every subject and scale is a small niche of a sub group of somethig that was alredy small to start with are enough peole willing to stand and fight together to change the status quo?

in Britain there is actually a huge and thriving "foodie" culture

In America too but it's something new (last twenty years) in both places. A hopeful sign I think that things can change.

…are enough peole willing to stand and fight together to change the status quo?

That is indeed the question. How is CAMRA doing over there?

Not sure its a 'culture' more an affectation of the middle classes I'd reckon the foodie culture deosnt make it far from places like Giuldford and its a to get an allotment unless you have the right accent these days lol
L

John Ruskin is reputed to have said ""There is nothing in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and he who considers price only is that man's lawful prey."

I first met this quotation on a chalkboard at a shop in Bedford, the emporium of Joe Gamper, the wine merchant from Hamburg, anglophile, oeonophile, and excellent conversationalist.

Joe was simply right. To put it another way. "Life is too short for bad wine".

And as the French and the Germans understand, but perhaps some of us English have yet to comprehend, you make up your own mind what's good and what's bad, you do not need to wait for the likes of Lloyd Grossman to tell you.

All the best,

John.

But does price really mean that I am getting the best quality and work of an artist?

In terms of the wine illustration above, a consumer survey did a report where they took the same box whine and served it to the same people, once as the box wine and the second time as a $90.00 USD bottle of wine. The result, everyone agreed that the $90.00 USD bottled wine was better in all aspects. It was the same wine.

Second, at point in our culture did we come to the conclusion that if I am only paid this much, I will only put this much effort into what I am doing? Maybe it was because I was raised in part by my Grandfather, who was a mid-western farmer. If he agreed to a price, he put all that he had into doing the job. If he paid someone to help him, expected them to do the same. Thus, if someone ask me to make them something, and I quote them a price, I do everything to give them the best quality available. To do any thing less, means that I am not giving it my all.

We also need to remember what part of the hobby we are making things for, fantasy or historical. The reason is the amount of figures that you need for each. I see fantasy as a market that the figures should be higher in price because you don't need 100's to play a game. I am sure that there are fantasy players that have purchased 100's of figures, but how many of those figures appear on a table at one time?

Historical games require figures, which means that most who want play do consider what their fiances can afford. Though lately it seems with the rise in cost of metal, more and more historical gamers are leaving the mass games for skirmish games.

Tom, when you make analogy about food and price in the US, first talk to the farmers. You will find that farmers see the issue as labor, like you, wanting high wages, while keeping the price of the crops they grow cheap.

As this thread has grown I've lost track of whether it was here or elsewhere that the point was made that the judgement of "better" is a purely subjective thing, and as such the only way to senisbly judge better is from an economic point, ie. does a product sell more and make more money? If so then it's usually the marketing that has the biggest impact upon that, and my opening post started by saying; "In most cases customers are lead more by what it says on the packaging than what's in it."

Hence the reason a cheap boxed wine is "better" served from a $90 USD bottle.

At (what) point in our culture did we come to the conclusion that if I am only paid this much, I will only put this much effort into what I am doing?

Sadly it was at the point that the modern world became accustomed to cheap disposable goods. I'd love to be able make a living out of always doing my best, but I'd go bust in a matter of weeks. In the modern world, as a professional, you have to take pride not in doing your best, but in doing the best you can within the budget and deadline your client is willing to allocate to a project.

There's a little footnote on the commissions page of my web site to this effect; "A truly stunning piece of work that arrives six months after the client wanted it and costs them five times more than they had budgeted for is of no use to anyone."

Sadly it was at the point that the modern world became accustomed to cheap disposable goods. I'd love to be able make a living out of always doing my best, but I'd go bust in a matter of weeks. In the modern world, as a professional, you have to take pride not in doing your best, but in doing the best you can within the budget and deadline your client is willing to allocate to a project

Indeed.
If I made buildings to the best of my ability I would not be able to cast them as they would be too delicate and too intricate.
Each building if made to the best of my ability would be a one off and probably cost well over £100.00 GBP if I factored in minimum wage.
No-one will pay £100.00 GBP for a small 6mm building that is really very excellent when they can get 10 resin ones for a fifth of the price that are of an acceptable standard.

As such there is no point in my spending too much time on a model if people won't pay what I think is a fair price considering the effort put into it.

So I make that things I am happy with and sell them, rather than make little works of art that no-one can afford.

Angel barracks, for many years my main passion as a hobbiest model maker (rather than working profesionally) was modelling derelict Victorian industrial architecture.

Pictures of one of my 1/43rd scale models were featured in a magazine years ago but to this day I still get enquiries about professionally making work for collectors to the same standard based upon that ancient article. (somewhat flatteringly or frustratingly based upon your point of view it prooved so popular they re-printed the article again recently in a compendium issue resulting in more enquiries)

Many folk couldn't distinguish which were pictures of the model and which the real prototype I based the model on. Even when I explain that well in excess of 500hrs were spent hand tinting the bricks one by one to replicate the weathering patterns, and that the roof had 15,000 hand cut decorative tiles applied to it, I'm still told I'm ridiculous to quote the sort of prices I have to for working to the same standards. At the sort of prices most people could afford to pay I'd be working for about £0.40 GBP an hour.

Occassionally a wealthy collector gives me a budget sufficient to get close enough to my best that most can't distinguish it from my best, but they are rare and I can still see all the things I'd liked to have done better.

…does price really mean that I am getting the best quality and work of an artist?

Indeed, you pay for what you get but you don't always get what you paid for.

…when you make analogy about food and price in the US…

I'm not talking about the ingredients so much as what's done with them after. 'American Cheese' would be a good example, what used to pass for bread twenty years ago (and still mostly does to judge by the grocery shelves) another.

I'd love to be able make a living out of always doing my best, but I'd go bust in a matter of weeks.

But on the other hand, if you spend your whole time working to a budget and never stretching yourself, what is the point? Where is the joy which made you want to do this work in the first place? Better I think to work at something which pays well and sculpt as a hobby.

I am certainly intrigued by Mr Meier's views about sales of 5000 to 15000 copies of a sculpt being a perfectly attainable target

Apparently the Reaper 'Bones' project will have an initial release of 17,000.

Somehow this got double posted so I've deleted the above copy

Better I think to work at something which pays well and sculpt as a hobby.

To a certain extent that's sort of what I do; it's just that the job that pays well (or atleast well enough for my tastes) is sculpting and making models for corporate clients. The occassional private commissions for wealthy collectors can be reasonably artistically stimulating and pay reasonably well so form a bridge between the hobby done for love and the profession done for money. Sculpting indifferent miniatures for hobby manufacturers that don't want or need to pay for what better would cost might not be fun, but it's a safety net if for whatever reason I've got gaps in my work diary or just want some variety.

Would I love it if every client had a generous deadline and huge budget which enabled me to always do my best? Of course I would.

Would I be financially better off or get more satisfaction out of life working nine till five (or longer) commuting to and from an office, only being able to work on miniatures at the weekend. Probably not.

What I do for work now provides it's frustrations, but doesn't everybody's job. I'm free to turn down the commissions that neither pay well nor provide any artistic stimulation. It doesn't in anyway stop me from making things for my own satisfaction at the weekends if I want to, it just means the kind of workshop and facilities most modellers would kill for I have to hand and can "write-off" as business expenses.

Yes from time to time I get frustrated and stir up a bit of debate on a forum like this, but then city executives probably get stressed and moan about government or financial legisaltion that stops them carrying out the deals they want to, just as teachers moan about the kids in their classes sometimes.

I believe that there are really two things being talked about here, art and work. Now sculpting is the common thread, but what you do with it is two different things.

Art is that which you create to the highest level of your ability. It is only work in the sense that you are creating it for someone as a pirate collector or one off. Such as Aidan's building. It was never created for the purpose of mass production. Thus, he should never be ashamed of asking for a high amount to recreate that building for someone else. At this point he is no different than a master carpenter who is asked to build a unique home.

In the toy soldier industry, the sculptor is being asked to create something that will be massed produced. Meaning that the sculpt needs to be done in such as to making molding of it possible and the casting of it something that will conform to mass production.

Mass production means that there are limits on what you need in the sculpt as well as what you can do with the sculpt. And, what further defines those limits are the market to which the product is being sold to.

In this market, the sculptor is being asked to make toy soldiers for mass production. That sculptor should, in my opinion, but his best efforts into that project, knowing that the task is not to create another David or that the work is going to be bronzed. The sculptor is creating something that will sold as a hobby piece, in the same way that model cars and airplanes are sold. The final beauty is left up to the hobbyist. And, even though the people that make the kits put their best into creating an accurate rendering of the vehicle, plane or tank, many still take the time to create art work by adding all the details that were not possible from a price point to put into the kits.

So, in the miniature world of toy soldiers, you are talking about the work of sculpting. And, that there is a certain level which is accepted by the consumer, who is not into oil paintings, but will buy prints; who is not into bronze statues, but will buy plastic and metal toy soldiers. In fact, I find it some what baffling that many gamers are no going to either paper toy soldiers or Lego's, and that should say something about how they view art of toy soldiers.