"10th century Lombards from a Ms." Topic

10th century Lombards in chainmail hauberk with round shield and spear.

Full image from Exultet Beneventano Ms. Vat. Lat. 9820

Druzhina
Illustrations of Soldiers

'Langobardi' without beards. Whatever next!

Much appreciated, Druzhina.

Round shields and pointy helmets… who makes these in 28mm?

The interesting thing about the helmets I think is the lack of nasals. Several dark age type figures are close – perhaps put some round shields on Normans for example, if they don't have nasals on their helmets?

They have cheek pieces on the helmet too. I am not sure if that represents an artistic classicisation because they are only vestigial and thus might just being alluded to. That is to say the original warriors do not have them although earlier Lombards do, but he artist is recalling Late Roman models.

The figures that should work for these w oils be Ottonians, if anyone does those in 28mm
Roy

I have always wondered about "references" like this? Were they really meant to be "historically accurate" as far as uniforms,etc or if it is just reasonably poor art work?
The above example and many others like it are often shown looks like something I would have drawn in about 6th grade and although may be useful in a general sort of way -- I really wonder if we can make sweeping claims based on them?
Regards
Russ Dunaway

Yes, you should be concerned with your sources, both primary and secondary.

Are they wearing helmets? Some of the head-gear have a little knob on top, there little sign of a joint shown for a hinged cheek-piece and the side pieces go down under the chin.
There is a variety of leg wear, a few have crossed binding, two seem to have a 'puttee' style and one with boots with a 'V' cut at the front. I only see one sword pommel and no sign of scabards.

What are the other sources for 10th century Lombards?

Druzhina
Illustrations of Soldiers

I rather think that the artist combined real life with a classical motif and that things like swords in scabbards get left out because strict representation is not what the picture is about.
Let us remember that people at the time saw very very few pictures. So representations had a rather different meaning to them than they do to us. We are interested in exact representation, they were more interested in looking 'right' and right was partly classical. The models for these pics certainly had swords, however drawing the swords on the picture would have been tedious and complicated and made the picture messy.
It is interesting that some details such as the spearheads are bang on right for period.
And Yes there are more illustrations from Italy in the period, some from charters such as this. There is one that appears to show guys in conical helmets, round shields, scale armour shirts and scale on the legs and arms. can't find the reference at the moment!
Roy

Lombard knights in an early 11th Century De rerum naturis

This image is widespread on the net.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Soldiers

Glad you found it Druzhina
This is the one I was thinking of in response to the chap who was wondering about using Normans with round shields to represent Italian knights. I suggest these chaps would fit well.
Roy

If "strict representation is not what the picture is about" then what can we really draw from these type of pictures?
Regards
Russ Dunaway

I think that you can draw those elements that have support from other sources and particularly from archaeology. What we have to be careful about is where the artist is copying from a previous model e.g a Roman manuscript that might be 500 years old at the time. Where we have to be particularly on our guards is with elements that are not strictly copies, but artistic conventions. Not showing swords is an accepted artistic convention. The pictures of the Ashburnham Pentateuch that Druzhina sourced show riders with bows and bow cases, but no swords. You have to bet that they did have swords, just that showing the belt and scabbard is too much.

I now think that we have to be dead careful about believing the classical style cuirass that is shown as having pteruges (leather straps) at the shoulder and waist. I increasingly think that what is actually worn is a mail shirt. Similarly Byzantine figures often have a yoke that looks like leather straps across the chest and over the shoulders. I really wonder whether that might be a remembrance of a Greek linen cuirass with shoulder pieces rendered gradually more and more vestigial in art until it is just two vertical and a horizontal strap.

Roman artists rendered lorica segmentata with the shoulder pieces and banded chest armour, but when reconstructors came to make the armours they could not make them work from the art, only from the archaeology.

Later representations of segmentata are really quite fanciful and nothing to do with the real thing except an impression

In medieval art we gradually get a movement to more realism until 12th century and later sculpture has brilliantly realistic representations of mail.

If you do Google searches on Late Roman helmet, dark age helmet and spangenhelm and look at the images of the real old ones there is enough there to say this is what things actually looked like. Compare that with the art and it shows what I mean.

If "strict representation is not what the picture is about" then what can we really draw from these type of pictures?

Pieces of the puzzle.

Lewisgunner,
Any clues to the source with scale armour?

Druzhina
Illustrations of Soldiers

Hi Druzhina, I have it somewhere on a photocopy, though I am not certain that the copy givens the sources. When I next run across it I will check and see if I can get enough info to tell you where to look.

Meanwhile can you find a site for the mosaics in Santa Maria magi ore in Rome?
Roy

Oh and had you seen. link
Interesting
Roy

I am not certain that the copy givens the sources

Roy,
A scan can be used for a Google image search for other copies and, perhaps, therfore a source. This is basically how I found the source for the picture above. It had been labeled as Lombards, but might not have been.

I don't remember seeing the Mosaner Psalter but I had looked at their Cantiga de Santa Maria images and the 11th Century Codex Benedictus. Yes it is interesting.

Mosaics in Santa Maria Maggiore, Rome
Triumphal Arch
The Nave (there are better individual images but this has most of them in 1 place)
The Apse

Druzhina
Illustrations of Soldiers

Druzhina,
Thanks for those, though the mosaics in the nave are a bit fuzzy. to me places like S Maria Maggiore are important because , although the actual mosaics are rather badly lit and high up, they are a strong potential source for later classicised warrior portraits because they are there , available to view , from 400 AD to today. Even in their time they do not represent current troops, but a Roman depiction in Hellenistic style.
Roy

Thanks for putting them up.

Yes, think its pretty clear that Lombards in the 10-11th centuries would be strongly influenced by Frankish military costume and equipment, at least in areas dominated by the "Franks." The Lombards in Byzantine areas would probably look more like Byzantines.

a MIRROR SITE:

10th century Lombards in chainmail hauberk with round shield and spear.

Full image from Exultet Beneventano Ms. Vat. Lat. 9820

Lombard knights in an early 11th Century De rerum naturis

Lombard King Rotario Dictating the Law, Codex Legum Longobardorum, 11th century

David in a Polirone Psalter, northern Italy, before 1086AD

Druzhina
Illustrations of Soldiers

Thanks to Lewisgunner TMP link

A detail of a 9th Century North Italian guard with mail leg armour from:
Emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicaea, Northern Italy, c.825 AD

MIRROR SITE
A detail of a 9th Century North Italian guard with mail leg armour

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Interpretations?
I think the helmet looks as if it is two piece with a central rib and that button at the front. It does peak at the front, but then that seems to me a piece of classicisation to mimic Roman helmets that are shown as Attic helmets with pointed peaks rather than actually going up at that point, though the Roda bible might show such a classical allusion or it might be a matter that helmets of the period really did have a pent front.
The shield boss isrendered accurately, but is shown in profile. This artist clearly has a problem with perspective which might well affect how he draws the helmet.
The nelmet appears to have an aventail.
The representation of armour is likely mail rather than scale armour.

Roy

Interpretations?
I think the helmet looks as if it is two piece with a central rib and that button at the front. It does peak at the front, but then that seems to me a piece of classicisation to mimic Roman helmets that are shown as Attic helmets with pointed peaks rather than actually going up at that point, though the Roda bible might show such a classical allusion or it might be a matter that helmets of the period really did have a pent front.
The shield boss is rendered accurately, but is shown in profile. This artist clearly has a problem with perspective which might well affect how he draws the helmet.
The helmet appears to have an aventail.
The representation of armour is likely mail rather than scale armour.

Roy

One of the figures on the right has the hauberk contours around the face similar to a cheek piece. Now is that a classicisation or did the mail have a

Roy, you did mention the Mosaner Psalter, mid 12th century – Herod orders the massacre of the innocents above. Your comments seem to end abruptly.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers