"18thC Clergy - Appearance" Topic

Was there any major difference(s) in the appearance of day-to-day clothing/vestments of European priests in the 18thC compared with earlier centuries?

eg can medieval figures of priests and monks still stand in just as accurately for their brethren in the 18thC? And if the typical robe (black, grey, brown) hadn't changed, what about hairstyle, or other little details?

Cheers

Depends on where & which church – British clergy of the 18th century would have looked nothing like medieval catholic priests.

As far as I know, monks robes are the same today. Vestments don't seem to have changed much either. As for hair styles, the tonsure was the order of the day, but I assume that the rest of the hair was worn in a comfortable style.

Protestant or Catholic priests? Depends on what area of Europe you're talking about, too. Western Europe? Eastern? Elsewhere?

Church of England Anglicans are easily found with a google search. Find any picture of John Wesley, and you'll find typical attire for Anglicans (he never left the CofE, remember).

Google is your friend on this one.

link

Prussia. Protestant or Catholic. :)

Picture of a late C17 Lutheran here
link

Admittedly in the US, but might give ideas.

Religious divide in the-area-known-as-germany-but-I-dont-want-an-argument was pretty significant – later on in the post-Napoleonic period there were efforts to establish a state church and some flight to the US. Maybe that means modern Amish or Mennonite would give clues?

Also depended on the society in question. There would not be a massive difference in Russia or Spain/Portugal.

I have a 17th-18thC Prussian church by Grand Manner. I also have a bunch of great medieval robed monks/clerics by Foundry. What I want to know is are they apt for the period (18thC) and locale (Prussia)? I'm capable of converting them, if I know what I'm converting them into. But alas, Google has *not* been my friend on this one. :)

Greetings

From memory out and about it would be normal subdued dark clothing with Lutheran bands. In church and possibly at home a single breasted cassock (see Encyclopedia Britannica 1911 article). So medieval robes would normally be inappropriate post-Reformation.

I am sure that somewhere there is a picture of Frederick the Great with a pastor but I can't immediately find it.

Regards

Edward

I've been led to believe that, regardless of century, all Catholic priests wear .

Wow. Proof that Catholics are the one group you can still mock with impunity. Class act olicana.

Prussia was a Lutheran state as witnessed by the hymn sung after Leuthen, so I'm afraid your Catholic figures will need quite a bit of conversion to make them fit. Imrael's link does indeed show the correct dress as also described by kustenjaeger above – plain black cassock, which would have more voluminous sleeves than a modern one, with clerical bands as still occasionally worn by Protestant clergy (and oddly some lay officers at Oxford University).Almost any picture of a Protestant clergyman in the 18th century would show this style.

Here's a nice one

link

Here's your man -assuming you do 28s!!
link

Thank you all. I confess to being completely out of my depth on this particular subject, but you've rescued the situation nicely. And yes, that Front Rank priest looks like a purchase.
(My Foundry monks live to fight another day.)

Much appreciated. :)

Cheers

Rector Bigfinger

Wow. Proof that Catholics are the one group you can still mock with impunity. Class act olicana.

As it happens, until the 1950s my family was Catholic. I come from poor stock (my father was one of 5 surviving children of 9). My grandfather struggled to keep his family and pay the tithe to the church. One Friday, on bill paying day, my grandfather having been too ill to work, was unable to pay the tithe. The priest arrived before my grandfather had come home. My grandmother let him in and explained the situation. The priest said "God comes first" and took the envelope saying "rent" off the mantle. When my grandfather got home he was livid. He took his four oldest sons down to the church…….

……..after they had all ed in the font, they declared themselves Church of England.

Heritage is everything.

Does anyone know of a 28mm Russian Orthodox priest miniature for the Napoleonic era?

Cossack Wars figures, from Old Glory are not exactly "orthodox", but to add to a militia unit, they will have to do.

rabbit

Olicana

So it seems your grandfather and his sons had their revenge for the wongs done to them. By your own words they urinated in the font and left the church. Very well. That was their revenge for the wrongs done to them. They have "settled the account."

What wrongs were done to YOU that you feel compelled to have such an attitude? This is like the Muslims whining about the Crusades. It was centuries ago, or African Americans today demanding reparations forslavery from people who'se ancesters weren't even in the salve trade.

I'm not Catholic. I'm Lutheran by the way. The transgressions by priests have been grievous, but they have been a small minority of the total. Other denominations suffer the same problem but you don't hear about it. On the other hand, the number of orphanages, schools, universities, hospitals, clinics, shelters for battard wives, food pantries, hospices, rehab centers, and charitable societies, benevolent organizations, and care centers, that begin with "Blessed…" or "Sacred…" or "Saint…" or "Holy…" or "Our Lady of.." dwarf the rest of the churches and often the government itself. By the by, I might toss on to that pile those places named before that begin with "Beth…" or "Shalom…" or "B'Nai…" and note that besides the Cahtolic Church the Jews are in first place for a group people love to hate.

Prussia was a Lutheran state as witnessed by the hymn sung after Leuthen, so I'm afraid your Catholic figures will need quite a bit of conversion to make them fit.

Prussia's state church was Lutheran, but like Anglican Britain it had religious minorities among its population, and even more among its soldiery recruited abroad. Frederick's army therefore had Lutheran, Calvinist, Catholic and I believe Jewish chaplains. (The King's personal maxim of course was that in his realms, each should aspire to Heaven in his own way.)

Not that medieval vestments would be any more suitable as everyday wear for an 18th C. Catholic priest than for his Protestant colleague – they all dressed more or less like "Rector Bigfinger" above. For celebrating Mass of course, the Cardinal's bishop above would be suitably dressed for whatever century.

The Leuthen hymn incidentally is part of Catholic church music as well today – we sang it at the closure of my wedding 25 years ago.

My Foundry monks live to fight another day.

As soon as your campaign enters Catholic territories, e.g. on Prussia's southern border, they'll be entirely in their place. Religious orders' dress codes changed far less than those of parish preists, as illustrated by Andreas Hofer's famous sidekick P. Haspinger.
(Link to picture didn't work, but google the name and you'll easily find illustrations of him.)

Back to the original topic:
So, Catholics priests in Northern Germany would have given up the cassock to look like Reformed preachers / Reverends? In more southern Europe only a few 'society abbots' / 'salon priests' dressed in such semi-secular clothes:

the 'normal' dress of the Catholic clergy was the cassock.

YouTube link

Thanks for those. :)

Cheers

Back to original topic:

Dear OSchmidt,

I don't have a problem with your right to be offended. If you choose to be offended that is up to you – you could, with some thought, just as easily not rise to my jibes.

As for jokes at peoples expense, I do have limits. I do not make jokes about colour, I do not make jokes about disability. I do not make jokes about things that were not chosen but that make people 'different' (not worse or better, right or wrong, just different).

And a hobby page seems the right kind of place for you to express such views? Wow. Great judgement there.

Historygamer,

you have 36 stifles to my 9 (currently, LOL). What did you say?

Here is an important question to ask yourself. Will anyone but me know the difference?

Cardinal Harkwood- that is one of the funniest vignettes I've seen in awhile. You just need to photo shop John the OFMs trademark fig in there.

I said this was an odd place to express your views on religion. I stand by that statement.

historygamer please note that this thread shifted because someone took publicly exception to a very innocuous joke, then seized this excuse to start again.

But, olicana, don't waste your times debating with ; and don't .

Back to original topic the Perry in their Carlist range have Catholic priests, but even ignoring the weaponry of some they would require a *tricorn* to appear in a 18th C. setting:

link

To observe at leisure the costume of a 18th C. Catholic priest is a golden excuse to watch (again) 'Brotherhood of the Wolf' .

Re Brotherhood of the Wolf, one of my most favourite films and soundtracks. :)

Re Perry Carlists – hadn't seen them before. Good one. Just a hat swap and voila! The fellow 3rd from the right is giving a blessing is he not? A shame because I need mine to be more outraged (but perhaps without wielding a sword or firearm). Then again, a pistol revealed as a warning while giving a blessing is a nice touch… :)

"…you have 36 stifles to my 9 (currently, LOL)."

Make that 10.

13.

Back to the topic.

I don't think 18th century French or English clergy had beards.

Wow! Carnage! All that over an innocuous joke; to describe it as "bigotry" is absurd.

Beards were uncommon among the educated classes in 18th century western Europe so it would be unusual to find a member of the clergy with one.

This is why HM Armed Forces do not allow politics, religion and women to be discussed in the mess – they're the three subjects most likely to start a fight (especially when mixed with alcohol).

On a technical point, I don't think one would necessarily need to give the clergy tricornes (at least not the Catholic ones); the floppy hats on the Perry priests would be quite common in most countries and whilst not quite a "badge of office" would have been instantly recognisable.

Also, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the pair of Jesuits made by Conquest (and sold in the UK by Warlord).

link

The joke that got him in the dawghouse has been deleted, so it was not that.

historygamer,

Can you rewrite your 17 Mar 2013 10:37 a.m. PST post so that the meaning of your comment is clear to those of us who do not speak American?

I'm not the one driving the bus on this issue of him being put in the dawghouse (suspended by the owner of TMP), so really, I'd rather drop it. The dawghouse is the name given when the owner of this site suspends people for posting outside the guidelines. If you have any questions, please ask him, not me. I had nothing to do with what happened.

This is why HM Armed Forces do not allow politics, religion and women to be discussed in the mess – they're the three subjects most likely to start a fight (especially when mixed with alcohol).

Politics & religion are also banned in my (and all other) Masonic Lodge. It keeps things nice and proper and lets us all dwell on what unites us, rather than upon our differences.

If someone wants to discuss their political or religous views there are plenty of places to do that, but this doesn't seem to be the right place for that, given it is a hobby group. In regards to my stifles, those were earned by acting like a knucklehead over hobby club politics – something I try to avoid like the plague now. Hey, we all have our lapses. :-)

I agree that this is not the best place to discuss views on religion or politics, especially as my own views on the former would probably infuriate some members.

I have never quite understood the need to stifle people; one can learn from even the most obnoxious people (and it is also quite amusing to read their posts sometimes).

Historygamer, Olicana and Abdul666w:

Stifles? You're all amatures compared to the person on the SF boards I had to avoid for really quite unpleasant, goading comments. Last I checked, he's at 211 stifles and counting…

But I can't see what he says anymore as he's stifled by me as well !!…

My suggestion is always that we sign on with our real names and that way it tends, I find, to restrain us slightly.

I can be an obnoxious so-and-so but I don't really want too many people to line up at Salute once a year and punch me on the nose so it tends to curb my tongue. At my local Club (the Warords) we have our arguments, via email, on an internal (club member's only) forum and in person, but we do at least all stand up and be counted.

So that's my suggestion… Own up to your feelings. Stop acting – and writing – under assumed names.

That and 'play nice'.

John Treadaway

Crikey! What a palaver!

I think we may have to put this one down to 'cultural differences'. Olicana's joke is not out of place in Britain. You can see and hear similar stuff all over the media here.

Most of those offended by it appear to be North American. I can only assume that this is not a topic that is thought suitable for mainstream humour over there. Fair enough, each to their own. But before taking exception to someone else's remarks, it may be worthwhile checking where they are from?

<<I can be an obnoxious so-and-so but I don't really want too many people to line up at Salute once a year and punch me on the nose so it tends to curb my tongue.>>

Presumably anyone wanting to "fast-track" would need to buy a "Nose Buster" ticket?

Oh no! Not a third queue in the concourse!

Well, he has far surpassed me for stifles. :-) Mine were all earned on the club pages battling over stupid convention stuff. I try to avoid those discussion as they are pointless.

Cedric, I think you hit the nail on the head with your analysis of differences, etc.

My main concern regarding 18th century clerics is that they probably shouldn't have a beard – which some figures seem to do – at least the ones here in the colonies. :-)

John I agree with you. I think you should have the guts to post under your own name. Posting under an alias shows a lack of courage in your convictions.