"Dealing with Haters?" Topic

I think we are all familiar with FOW haters, those grinning yuck-yuck-yucking eejits who find themselves sooo amusing;

'Gee you have 3 Tigers IIs on that table, wasn't that more than were produced in the entire war!' Snigger snigger…

Translation: I don't actually know much about military history but lots of folks are saying this sort of thing on TMP so I will discharge my jealousy of your great terrain, wonderfully painted models and the obvious enjoyment you guys are having with a throw away comment and then slope off back to my cards/boardgame/handful of unpainted dwarves and hope that someone will turn up with another slab of soft drinks and crisps…

Anyway, I had resolved to grow up and take these things less personally. Since leaving the Service, and kind of diving into the opposite end of the hyper sensitivity scale that is the university environment, I have had some difficulty in regaining a proper sense of perspective to inane and unfounded criticism – in the Service criticism is often pointed, even brutal, but it is always delivered with the very best of motives – to keep you alive, so you generally take it with good grace and extract the learning point…

But my best intentions were rocked when a good wargaming buddy revealed his deepest doubts about a forthcoming game we are putting on at a convention. He has been so rattled by FOW criticism of 'Wall to wall' tanks that he wanted us to play Infantry armies only all day. Now I do admit to being a total treadhead, so I may have overreacted, but I think my response may be of interest to you. If not, I apologise, and ask you to be on your way with a light heart:

Hi XXX,

Entirely understand and sympathise with your point of view. However, 2 points:

1. Do we want to skew our whole day by pandering to the prejudices of the ignorant? Part of my motivation for engaging in GongCon is to get a whole day's gaming in, I'm hoping for at least 3 distinct games, I would prefer they not all be wholly infantry?

2. Won't playing solely with Infantry, whilst having tanks on display as part of the ‘display armies' you suggest, negate the point you are trying to make?

I think we are both old enough to know by now that FOW will attract criticism no matter what you do; its too successful and well known. Haters gotta hate anyway, to demonstrate how ‘up' they are in military history…

Whilst happy to go your way in the final analysis, may I propose as an alternative suggestion that we plan to ….

If we do get any such comments, we can just smile inwardly, and ask the individual concerned if they have written any commercially successful rules lately?

I am sick of that word Hater. It is so overused that it has no meaning. It gets used every time someone doesn't like something. I don't like FoW – HATER. I don't like resin models – HATER. Yawn. I guess that makes me a HATER.

I was running the FoW tournament at Leviathan years back, and a guy came up with his five year old son to where the competition was being held, they stopped by a table with a game mid progress and he loudly tells his son "These people aren't playing a proper game, this is a pretend WW2 game".

I found that really riled me up, but what can you do? I politely asked him not to interrupt game play and to move along.

If your supplying the armies for the con events just make sure they have an appropriate amount of armor

Take full size infantry platoons and add a vehicle unit or two

I guess when you inwardly know that what you're doing is somewhat childish, and you are insecure, you worry about what someone else might think about it.

Why do you care about the haters?

Let them hate. Enjoy doing whatever your doing.

If you don't like the attitude on a certain forum, you can just ignore those posts/forum.

You can try WWPD – they're all about positive discussion about FOW.

I guess when you inwardly know that what you're doing is somewhat childish, and you are insecure, you worry about what someone else might think about it.

Um, thanks, I think! Whilst I agree that wargaming is childish, I don't see it as anymore childish than watching drama on TV or reading a novel or reading a comic book, so that isn't really an issue here, I don't think. Certainly these 'critics', shall we say for Brian's benefit, look as if they watch a whole lot of TV!

I don't think I'm insecure either. Not since I earnt the Queen's Commission the hard way, at least! But as some of the sentiment on this thread suggests, the comments made by these critics can be extremely annoying, and I think its healthy to share frustration out amongst like minded individuals…

You can tell them to and go away because you are trying to have fun.

I dislike FOW. I bought the rules as well as several addition books, and I have played the game. I don't see the attraction. That said, I also recognize that they gave our hobby (not their hobby) a massive shot in the arm re. WWII gaming.

I'll walk up to your convention game and look at your terrain and figures. I will let you know if I like your painting/basing/whatever. If you ask me if I want to play I will say, "no thank you." If pressed, I will tell you that I have played the game and I do not care for it. What I will not do is make negative comments about your game. It just shows a lack of class. You should enjoy your game but I don't have to. It's kind of the same as some tool walking up to your Napoleonics game and telling you that your cornflower blue coats are a shade too dark. In which case you are free to respond with, "You are free to and leave; we are playing a game."

I do not like Flames of war but I do like the work put into the painted Armies and the joy that people who play it get.
So Play on bro and do what brings you happyness thats what the hobby is about. Life is all gravy for us now don't let people rob you of one second of a good time…..Mikey

They would just criticize you for "wall to wall infantry."

hater's gotta hate, just like sharks gotta swim.

They would just criticize you for "wall to wall infantry.

You got that right!

Thanks for all the support chaps, feelin' good!

Actually, I would tell the Napoleonic tool that his eyesight is imperfect!

I liked FoW in the second edition, enough to play it a bit and spend a lot of money, but I still don't like wall-to-wall tanks or on-board artillery. You don't have to be a FoW Hater to dislike those aspects of the game.

Personally, I liked playing Infantry Aces, and my fellow local gamers accommodated me for awhile. After about six games straight of restricted armor, even I was ready for a few tanks.

The problem is not the rules, it is the scale (and lack of basing for the tanks).

"These people aren't playing a proper game, this is a pretend WW2 game".

That's cute

I guess when you inwardly know that what you're doing is somewhat childish, and you are insecure, you worry about what someone else might think about it.

Ha Ha :) That made me laugh. There are a lot of insecure gamers. Those other people are just Haters!

Well, now that's a comment! It's a "pretend" WW2 "game"

A pretend game? I think, when you boil it down we all play pretend games (science fiction? warhammer?). I don't like FOW my self but it's because of the "granularity" of it, not the wall to wall tanks. Actually, the whole blitzkrieg revolution in warfare involved the German Army having wall to wall tanks at the point of contact!

So, I advise that you simply ignore the ignorant and understand that enjoyment of the game is the actual point of playing it.

Sparker, right with you mate. Dont worry about them. Who cares what they say. You guys go and have a fun time. We're ALL of us in the little metal men business (or plastic, or resin …) and its about having fun. Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.

I haven't played FoW but I've got it and heaps of their books and models that for the moment I use for other systems. If I get down to the GongCon I'll come up to your table with my 9 year old and loudly say " … isn't this fabulous, look at the terrain and models and dont they seem to be having lots of fun … "

Nick

I hate haters….

And on that table is a pretend Napoleonics game, and on that table is a pretend Ancients game…….

Each to their own.

Except for Romans of cause.

Well someone needs to post one

I hate haters….

Does that mean you hate yourself?!?!?!?!?!

Haters have been around my whole gaming career, since the 1960s. My mother hated toy soldeirs. made him burn a lot of classic marx in then.

When I got into formal gaming there were always one group who did not like what another group was playing. Seems like in the late 1970s the 'hate' was focused on D&D and RPG. And they did plenty of hating themselves.
That may be an aspect of the hating which is ignored…both side do hating, so it is not just a one way street.

As a vender, I have my perferred products and eras. I even tend to stock more historical than Fantasy, no card games, a almost no product from certain 'specific' big name companies.

Personally , an intrigal part of the wargaming experience is the research aspect whetehr it is organization, uniforms or research design data. A player who misses oit on that aspect is missing out on the total experience but that is not reason to either 'sniker' at them or 'hate' their system.

There is no doubt to me anyway, the Flames of War has definately raised the standards of painting, presentation, tournaments, and more than I can think of right now. They also have brought younger people into the hobby. I have read the rules and just dont care for them. But thats me and no reflection on the game or company. Beats playing TRACTICS when I started in the hobby! That was mind numbing….
Gunny

it wasn't a pretend game, it was a real game, it was just pretend WWII, all wargames are pretend..

boy, the "side by side" tank stuff really strikes a nerve with the FOW crowd…my only and best guess would be because:
1)tank don't operate like that
2)when it all is said and done, its only used to "increase firepower" and limit "side shots". again, something that tanks don't do, and trying to convince others here that "your game"(be it a micro armor game on a gym room floor or a "corps level" battle game, where "side by side means zero to your track to track tank parks, does'nt work. because i'm sure other members here can't forget what the already know. you know, like tanks don't operate like that.
3)if your gonna defend games workshop 2.0, expect the hate. i was on board with FOW when it was in first ed. i do like the "idea" of it. but then i look at the tanks. which, btw, don't operate like that. my 9 year old knows this.
play what you like. have fun. but don't pretend the game does'nt look goofy to someone whos played ww2(or modern, or scifi)where its best to remember armored vehicles spend some time picking approch routes and keeping some distance between each vehicle. i have read members post that say"i'll use arty or airpower" to break up those packed tanks. yet every freakin' time i click on someone FOW aar, there are those side by side, totally stupid halfassed tanks…

Insecure people are often the first to criticise. It's unfortunate you have to put up with it sparker…..all power too the doers in the world who get off their backside and put themselves in the position to BE criticised in the first place.

As a wargamer of too many years to admit to, I publicly recognise that I am a member of a … let's just admit, 'curious' sub-culture. What I do is not mainstream and when I attend conventions I like to think I barely belong. Needless to say my wife and daughters and everyone else's wives and daughters I know and wargame with stay away from these ritualistic gatherings in droves. I can only advise that when attending similar conventions try to remember that if you regard yourself as balanced and normal (whether it's how you are perceived) then remind yourself that you are in the minority here. If you expect balance, reason and sage wisdom you are probably in the wrong place.

I only ever competitively wargamed at a convention once – where I reached my limit. I really should have known better but I forgot myself and ended up playing with some of the worst sorts of social imbeciles it has ever been my misfortune to interact with. I don't mean to sound elitist but unlike family and work-mates I reserve the right to chose who I socialise with. Ye Gods what a day. Anyway, enough about me – this is about you.

Frustrating though it may seem, do you really care less what your negative commentators think or say about FOW? I think not. I try not to comment on what I might feel about a whole range of stuff, especially in a forum such as this. Who cares what I think? Only my Blog followers – perhaps.

AND what do I think about FOW? That's not the point. All the best and keep the faith.

huh?

Can someone tell me what's wrong with 4 Assault Sections, a Ranger platoon, a platoon/battery (forget the proper term) of 4.2" mortars, a platoon of 3 Sherman DDs, and a platoon of regular Shermans? 6 tanks in 2000 points (IIRC).

OK, my Panzer Lehr is a bit silly in terms of halftracks. Think I have $450 USD in halftracks there.

But the real silliness is my Fallschirmjager. They have a whole Stug Brigade supporting them… all 5 tanks of it!

Heck, I think I ended up with more tracks in my 11th Cav force that I'm working on for Tropic Lightning!

I find it slightly disingenuous that any criticism of FoW is seen as "hating". I personally think that "hater" is an term which is very emotionally loaded and shouldn't be used. It expresses a degree of malice which I do not think is appropriate.

Beats playing TRACTICS

Hey ! … cutting edge !!! ……………( yes I know what you mean Gunny hahaha )

I had many Tigers knocked out by turret ring shots….quiet amazing how often that happened ?? …had to use cardboard chits in a coffee mug, no one had even seen a d20 in my neck of the woods at the time. " 20 sided dice ?….ah that's impossible …no such thing "

Tractics got me started. No more unrealistic than FOW which I also have.
Fond memories of a 120mm rd KO'ing a Elefant(Hatch Hit).

It's the game, not the historicity for me. Played 16 different versions of The Battle Of The Bulge over the years, all varying accuracy.

May do a DUST version.

Go tell that hater to paint up 14,000 allied combat aircraft for late '44. Then he can criticise.

No matter what you do, someone is going to hate it.

When I was new in The Hobby™, I subscribed to The Courier. One buffoon submitted several articles, one of which was called "Square Bullets". He shrieked in dismay at the mere idea of people not being bound by what HE perceived as period tactics. He wrote another article about how he gave entrance quizzes to anyone wishing to join "his" group. That was back in the 70s, back in the previous century. Hint: You had to be able to explain the term "Stellenbosched", in 25 words or less. I don't think that bricoles were invited, though.

Wargaming is full of pompous asses who think that theirs is the only way to game.
Ironically enough, it is also full of likewise pompous asses who hate the games that the previous pompous asses play.
Empire has a bad reputation, not the least from its adherents, who think that everybody else is playing fantasy games. So, there are haters who play Empire. And there are those who hate Empire. (I should say that WE play Empire V several times a year, and enjoy it a lot. To us, it is just a different game, and have no investment in it one way or the other.)
I have seen similar attitudes regarding CLS and Piquet and WRG and DBM and…

Play what you like. If you don't like what *I* play, I am OK with that. But if you insist on spewing bile because you cannot tolerate how I play with my toy soldiers, you can go yourself.
And *THAT* is how the OFM deals with haters!

Lord knows, there are plenty of silly things about Flames of War, and I freely acknowledge them while still playing the game. About 25 times a year.

Nothing being asked your hobbies in an Army polygraph and saying, 'OK, I'm not embarassed to say this. I play with toy soldiers.' Got a good laugh out of the examiner. She thought it was pretty cool, but then she had family who do reenacting so she gets it.

It is pointless to worry abput people who don't like what you do/play, especially in a hobby as small aS ours, that a large percentage of the general public would think a bit eccentric at best.

I don't play anything after the Napoleonic era, and never tournament games but I must say that looking at the FoW tournament set ups at the last Lancaster HCON, I was thoroughly impressed by the presentation skills manifest in the gaming tables. I could envy that, LOL, but hate it – never!

Peter

I don't encounter very much sniping despite the number of shows I do. I recall I was away from our ancients game at a show a few years back, however, when someone apparently tried to take us to task over the number of spokes on the wheels of our chariots (in a 15mm kadesh based game) … yes, counting spokes on 15mm chariots!

Chris pointed out that the guy had been lucky I wasn't there to put him right! I smiled at the irony (he was wrong about the number of spokes anyway*)…

But like I said at the time … such people aren't always bad – it's just their inept way of trying to make conversation.

Socially inept people find it hard to say 'hello, …. I'm interested in this sort of thing too, let's chat …' so instead they go for an oblique approach that is meant to mean 'Hey, I'm a geek, too …', but more often gives offence because, well, socially inept people often do give offence when they try connect.

As long as a game serves its intended purpose, I'm happy enough …

Phil
*but that's another story

Would it make you feel better if I said I liked FOW?

Ok, I like FOW.

All better now.

"These people aren't playing a proper game, this is a pretend WW2 game".

Ask him where were his drops.

"Wall to wall tanks" isnt mentioned in thr rules. Its the person thats playing the force who chooses to use that method. I have a mate who I have played 3 diff rules systems with and he chooses to place his armour like this with each set !
So do u hate BKC, BPG and FOW too ! numbnuts!!

Like its been said haters will hate, till they grow up.

I play and enjoy FOW with friends at least once every 6 weeks and it works fine for us. I don't feel the need to defend it as it works for us and that's all that matters.

There are other rules systems in other periods that I play that I do not care for but I either simply don't play or, if it is enjoyed by my friends, I play the game and no real harm comes of it other than maybe me enjoying the game a bit less that day than normal.

I expect any rules set will have fans and critics. What I do not understand is a need to share a negative opinion about any rules set on an unsolicited basis to someone that clearly likes them. As many others have pointed out, it is a small niche hobby with very limited participants. Why go out of your way to hack off another person for no measureable purpose?

Wow, a FOW hipster on this thread. Who would have thought such a thing existed.

FOW isn't my cup of tea, but if someone's having fun with it all power to them I say.
I does seem popular and by all accounts it's a fun game, so what's to 'hate'.
;o)

I personally think that "hater" is an term which is very emotionally loaded and shouldn't be used. It expresses a degree of malice which I do not think is appropriate.

A fair and wise point, Goober. Unfortunately its become part of the vocab in this TMP context, shorthand for those who blame this particular rules system for the way those who play it deploy their tanks, but who don't apply the same criticism to other rulesets, despite the fact that FOW specifically trys to limit this issue by the size of its artillery and air template!

I think whatever term you apply to people who use that logic, or ape it from others, is going to be insulting! But yes, point taken, lets go with 'FOW critics'…

And yes Tarty, asking 'critics' what contribution they have made recently is probably the best response…I have noticed in my recent self imposed crusade to defend FOW, is that those on TMP who actively advocate for other rules systems, organise games, post AARs, and so forth, are actually the most rational and reasoned in their critique…as you might expect!

Lots of other wise words too, thanks, I think I've calmed down now….

I think there is also a certain part of pack mentality as well. Unlike, say, sportsmen, we aren't physically sizing up to each other to find out who is the big dog, but dominance can be exerted by displaying "superior" knowledge of rules, tactics, obscure uniform knowledge and so on. It can also be displayed by criticising those traits in others. Not everybody is concerned with this prestige and status – I'm quite aware of my own gaps in historical knowledges and rate myself as an average general on most occasions (there is a running joke in our little gaming group that I ALWAYS lose the first time of any new game) – but it is VERY important to some people. Those individuals who are concerned with prestige and status as the alpha gamer, but have less well developed social skills are going to display this kind of odious behaviour.

How do you deal with it? Well, traditional ways of dealing with an Alpha-type in a work environment don't really apply, unless it's a regular club member or something. There are plenty of googleable answers, but they fall into one of three camps: Confront them (out alpha them – prepare of snark city), placate (let alpha be alpha – usually by letting them have their moment in the sun), divert their attention elsewhere (you think FoW is unrealistic, well, maybe, but what about the crazy line of sight rules in Game X?)

G.

Mate, I'm no fan of FOW, and that's just my choice. You like it and that's your choice. No one should tell either of us what to game. If you ran a game I'd play it and vice versa.

Tell 'em all to get stuffed.

nd then slope off back to my cards/boardgame/handful of unpainted dwarves

That's an outrageous slur! Unpainted Dwarf hater!!!

Although does somewhat confirm OFM's point, a hater's disdain can seem to be returned with as much malice as it is delivered.

Life's too short to spend time worrying about haters; play painted or unpainted, play wall to wall tanks or don't, play 'real' battles or pretend ones… do as you please and have fun. It's your time and money.

Wow…

<sigh>

"Lots of other wise words too, thanks, I think I've calmed down now…"

Mission accomplished, Sparker ! An Arabian saying is "A wise man first asks the opinion of his wive and then does what he wants". So let me rephrase that in "A wise wargamer listens to idiots and then turns around and plays on, while of course during that turn already forgets the idiot's remarks". If you listen (or look like you are listening) they will go away and leave you in peace…

Geez, all WW2 rules are just a game and therefore an abstraction of WW2 combat. Just have fun. Who cares if the tanks are next to each other.

If you mother was a sewing machine.
And your father was a lawnmower.
How many pancakes would it take to cover a dog house?

13

Because baseballs don't have feathers!

*

Make sense now?