"Viability of Starwars stormtroopers" Topic

How effective would their tactics be in the real world?

What would their tactic be? Shoot to miss? From watching their attempts to kill Luke, Leia, Han and Chewie, their marksmanship leaves much to be desired.

They were beaten by stone age teddy bears so I'd put their effectiveness against any reasonably trained modern force as pretty much non-existent. Unless they bring along the Death Star.

Quite true, and yet there's a direct quote in the first movie by Obiwan about how precise Stormtroopers are in their shooting…….

Perhaps their standards were lowered in the later years, in order to fill out their ranks with new conscripts.

…He was being sarcastic…

The Force protected Luke and Leia, and by association Han and Chewbacca. The ewoks caught them totally by surprise, they were merely a garrison briefed to prevent Rebel interference (which they initially succeeded at.) Given that they had largely maintained the Empire for almost a generation is a silent testament to their effectiveness.

I'm referring to those battles that don't give the heroes indestructible plot armour.

The ship assault when they capture Leia, Hoth, presumably anything with clone troopers since they're the same thing in different armour.

Note that the time difference is about a generation judging by Luke so anything the clone troopers can do, so can the stormtroopers.

The stormtroopers on Endor were supposed to be one of the best legions.

by the time endor happened a lot of the troopers were hitting their 60s.

If you want to see what Storm Troopers really do, look at the Star Wars Card Game art

Some fantastic concepts there

by the time endor happened a lot of the troopers were hitting their 60s.

Most Storm Troopers after the rise of the empire are normal conscripted dudes

Genetic flaws in the cloning material perhaps? Perhaps repeated cloning reduces the clones IQ over repeated cloning. Maybe by this time all the clones had the IQ of a cat and all they can say is "Yes Sir" and "These are not the droids" and march in step.

A classic YouTube clip that raises an obvious question.

YouTube link

That clip also shows how easy it is for a Stormtrooper to look completely confused— even though they're wearing a full-face helmet! Given that they're often befuddled in the films, that's a prescient piece of design work…

I figure against a modern force they would be defeated due to poor tactics, but it would be a tough fight due to their powerful weapons and armor (which I like to think is totally bulletproof, explaining the lack of kinetic weapon use in the movies).

They were accurate. They fired all those shots at Luke and the Gang and didn't hit any of them, even the droids. Because they had orders to let them escape! Y'know, so the Death Star could track them to the secret rebel base?

The armor is second-chance armor. Like our military wears? It doesn't make you invulnerable, it keeps you from dying. Most of the time.

As for Endor-everyone know that was wookies. The whole teddy bear thing was rebel propaganda.

Not just because of tactics, I don't give stormtroopers a chance because their blasters fire semi-auto and most modern armies use full-auto weapons.

I believe their marksmanship would increase tremendously just by doing away completely with the bad habit of, "firing from the hip."

And, ah, regarding the armor? Star Wars canon has it that stormtrooper armor is actually geared more for chemical, biological, thermal and environmental survival, even for short time periods in a vacuum (which somewhat covers the lack of chemical/biological warfare in the post-clone storylines.)

As Dunaden explained – Despite not being designed for optimal armor as we understand it, the armor still stops all but the largest kinetic slugs, but is just NOT energy-weapon "proof."

BTW Stormtroopers are not Clone Troopers. Clone Troopers where genetically manipulated to die after like 10 years. Most didn't out last the clone wars. Boba Fett being the exemption because he was an unaltered clone. (He still had issues later on but got those fixed with the help of his granddaughter.)

That said… Stormtroopers kinda got a bad wrap in ROTJ. They probably specialized in ship to ship engagements but should still have put up a better fight. I blame it on Lucas wanting to make the kids like the ewoks.

"As for Endor-everyone know that was wookies."

I watched on of the commentaries years ago and Lucas admitted that Endor was suppose to be full of Wookies and Chewie was suppose to be an ewok. He should have drop the ewoks all togehter and replaced the c3p0 God stuff with Chewie talking to his fellow wookies.

Now everyone repeat after me: "If it wasn't in the films, it's not really canon."
Keep saying that. Over and over. Retconned stuff simply doesn't count.

And, yes, those should have been wookies on Endor. But they weren't.

Which means that Imperial Stormtrooper armor not only can't stop blaster fire, it can't protect the wearer from simple impact trauma— if anything, it appears to direct even minor impact trauma directly into the wearer's body and cranium. Thus, a creature barely three-feet tall with a remarkably light body and bone structure (light enough to be able to operate a mechanical, muscle-powered flying craft) can inflict immobilizing and even deadly blows on a fully-armored adult human male without ever piercing or crushing the armor.

The theory that the "armor" makes Imperial soldiers easier to dispose of should they grow mutinous probably makes more sense than anything else suggested.

"Kill all you want. We'll clone more."

Considering I'm pretty sure any given junior high gym class "skins"-side dodgeball team could defeat a battalion of Imperial Stormtroopers, and possibly even be on time for next period?

I'ma go with "not."

Of course, what do you expect from an "army" led by a mid-70s pleather couch in a Stahlhelm…

- Monk

Clone facilities had been destroyed by the time of the Rebellion except for a hidden site. Stormtroopers are NOT Clones.

I look on Stormtroopers Persian Immortals. They are armed the best, highly motivated but not invulnerable. There are lots of them and they keep coming. I would rather wear that armor than none. Heck, even Obi-wan wore it during the Clone Wars so it must have had some value.

Thanks,

John

All this debate brings to mind a match up to consider…

Stormtroopers(The Emperor's Own) vs. Stormtroopers(The Kaiser's Own).

Fight!!

Kaisers Own. No question. I haven't seen a single SW Trooper that fights in HTH.

A modern force would rip the White-armored goons a new one.

They would improve out of sight if they just put sights on the blasters. Really, spray & pray?

Now we know that stormtroopers shouldn't use stormtrooper tactics (though their awful shooting does explain WHY the get so close), would a REAL army find the tactics effective.

Lion in the Stars, "I haven't seen a single SW Trooper that fights in HTH."

Again, based on Storm Trooper armor, the gloves are "powered" for HTH combat, something the movies NEVER covered (so was probably added on deus ex machina by an author at one point or another, but has now become canon.)

Come to think of it…. Why is it that George Lucas has not send GW a cease and desist letter yet? spacemarines?? c'mon.. you know they are just different branded stormtroopers. And don't get me started on the imperial guard..

As for the topic. I see storm troopers like the Roman legions in space. They might not be the best of fighters, but are highly disciplined and organized next to pity full bands of rebel scum, and smaller independent foes. Add to that a crushing technological and logistical superiority. Endor was a draw! The plan had succeeded, had it not been for Vaders treason. And Even the best of troopers are easy targets if ambushed in a jungle that should be obvious to anybody.

Romans not the best of fighters, who were? They trained long enough.

Not just because of tactics, I don't give stormtroopers a chance because their blasters fire semi-auto and most modern armies use full-auto weapons.
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albeit that the British Army is the best in the world and back in SLR days didn't have fully auto weapons at individual soldier level.

GNREP8 wrote:

albeit that the British Army is the best in the world and back in SLR days didn't have fully auto weapons at individual soldier level.

The first bit's right enough, the second ain't.

When I changed from being an SLR-toting TA infantryman to a UOTC signaller, they gave me a Small Metal Gun (SMG) which was, given the lack of issue of 9mm blank, a wholly pointless thing to have -- we preferred Browning 9mms, because you could pop them in a pocket and take them into the pub on meal halts, so nobody had to stay guarding the weapons on the wagon -- but it was, no doubting it, an automatic weapon. Pointless deadweight, yes, but *automatic* pointless deadweight.

Then "Star Wars" came out, and suddenly SMGs were the coolest thing in this galaxy or any other, because you could fold up the stock, and, regardless of the lack of blank ammo for the thing, run around the exercise area like a lemming on amphetamines shouting "BWEE! BWEE! BWEE!" and pretending to be an Imperial Stormtrooper -- fire and movement, pfft, who needs it.

I think it must have been at around this time 2000AD printed the ineffably wonderful "D.R. and Quinch" strips. While SMGs where not involved on this occasion, I can proudly report that, while playing enemy on an exercise in the Lion's Mouth training area, I initiated a glorious charge with the Official Space Marines War-Cry: "Eat Plutonium Death, You Disgusting Alien Weirdos!"

Now, if GW wants to take on Tharg in an intellectual property suit, I think I can guess who is going to win.

Splundig vur thrigg!

John.

Well, considering the storm troopers were actors without real guns, I'd say they probably wouldn't last five minutes against a modern force.

Finally! Glad someone said it!

John

The original Star Wars Stormtroopers were nothing more than an inexhaustible supply of warm bodies for the 'good guys' to turn cold. The idea that they maintain the iron grip of the Empire for x amount time, yet aren't able to crush an 'insignificant rebellion', nor take down a smuggler and a farmhand, are somewhat contradictory. That must cause some issues for those doing the multiple spin off stories, where the Stormtroopers come in for more scrutiny.

In the films, they are just there to be shot. It's the old conceit we see plenty of times, where the hero or heroes can slug it out with bad guys who might outnumber them astronomically, but the bad guys always attack in dribs and drabs, and always have to close to spitting distance even when armed with a ranged weapon, and always opt to try and take the hero/heroes alive, rather than just zap them, like they are supposed to do everyone else, thus allowing the chance for the hero/heroes to strike the killer blow, or just be taken alive so they can escape later on.

I've always thought the Stormtrooper helmet was just a means of recycling the same stuntmen/extras, so they could be killed off in multiple scenes without people thinking 'didn't that bloke get shot before?'.

It's interesting to see the conflict in the writing for the Clone Wars series, which tries to show some military thinking for the Clones, and gives them names and personalities so the audience cares about them a bit, then still kills them off in droves while the core characters remain untouched amidst the carnage. And yes, I know it's only a cartoon…

Gary

I've got an SDS made "hero" helmet and you while you can just about make out Jack Sh1t you couldn't ID him in a line up, that and the fact if you had an ewok 7 feet away from you, your field of vision wouldn't allow you to see him and god does that armour pinch, if you had to chase a rebel on the stairs you'd probably die of blood loss, assuming you didn't trip and break your neck first.

i think they were meant for policing/suppressing the local law abiding populace
they were given a major bad reputation by the empires own propaganda machine to frighten and control the locals ,who would want to take on a legion of stormtroopers on their own,
it was only when the rising started that the truth came out about how bad they were

Visari's Helghast troops could out fight Imperial Stormtroopers.

Given that they had largely maintained the Empire for almost a generation is a silent testament to their effectiveness.

So did the Iraqi Republican Guard! :P

The stormtrooper helmets have extremely limited visibility which limits awareness. The armour is not bullet proof – blasters are simply more accurate due to no balistic curve.

Goven lack of infantry tactics, suppressive weapons and artillery and use of extremely high profile poor ground pressure armour support, I suspect the stormtroopers would get their butts handed to them by any post WWII force.

I suspect WH40K forces would preform even more poorly especially due to extreme short range of weapons (effective range 100m for a bolt gun or lasgun according to various Black Crusade/Rogue Trader publications) and a preference for hand-too-hand combat.

In neither universes, is cover or camouflage used much.

It's interesting that forces in various science fiction movie/tv realms lack advanced tactics, portable suppressive weapons, artillery support, electronic warfare capabilities, stand-off weapons, have short range personal weapons and very often lack even rudimentary reconaissance assets. :P

When I changed from being an SLR-toting TA infantryman to a UOTC signaller, they gave me a Small Metal Gun (SMG) which was, …… but it was, no doubting it, an automatic weapon. Pointless deadweight, yes, but *automatic* pointless deadweight.

Then "Star Wars" came out, and suddenly SMGs were the coolest thing in this galaxy or any other, because you could fold up the stock, and, regardless of the lack of blank ammo for the thing, run around the exercise area like a lemming on amphetamines shouting "BWEE! BWEE! BWEE!" and pretending to be an Imperial Stormtrooper -- fire and movement, pfft, who needs it.

And if you had a Sterling SMG John, then you actually had the Stormtroopers E11 blaster gun too!
link

I guess the 501st are some pretty BA mothers. Still, their 'tactics' (whatever it is) probably wouldn't work in the present any more than 40K Space Marine 'tactics' would.

link

Using the stats and info provided by West End Games "Star Wars the RPG"and their "Battle of Hoth "game i dropped the entire Imperial landing force at Hoth with a company(10)T-62s and a platoon of motor rifle troops.If you add the era of ceramics armour the laser based Star wars troops fare worse probably 5 M_1s could achieve the same end faster.

I believe The stormtroopers was issued helmets in order to make them a "faceless" enemy that the good guys could kill off in droves without raising much debate about the body count in a "child friendly" film. I suspect much of the same thinking was in place when deciding to make "drones" the primary foe in the new films. I wonder how the phantom menace would have been received if every drone "casually" killed had been a living bleeding person instead.

The theory that the "armor" makes Imperial soldiers easier to dispose of should they grow mutinous probably makes more sense than anything else suggested.

So you are saying the stormtrooper is actually wearing his own body bag. Makes perfect sense now.

so was probably added on deus ex machina by an author at one point or another, but has now become canon

*Ahem*

Again, repeat after me:

"If it wasn't in the films, it's not really canon."
Keep saying that. Over and over. Retconned stuff simply doesn't count.

Regardless of body armor or idealogy, if they are well trained, well lead, organized, tactically and technically proficient, utilized good fieldcraft, etc. … they'd be an effective force …

Legion but they are not.

When I changed from being an SLR-toting TA infantryman to a UOTC signaller

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yes technically of course the Sterling was a gun, though potentially one might have done more damage throwing it at someone (I went from SLR toting TA Signaller to UOTC – certainly in the latter the SMG was more of a danger to others on the range than to any theoretical enemy!)

I believe The stormtroopers was issued helmets in order to make them a "faceless" enemy that the good guys could kill off in droves without raising much debate about the body count in a "child friendly" film.

@Krede77 I think you nailed it right there. Happened like that in GI Joe cartoon as well, people shooting every where and no one dies.

I think that explains why I've gone more towards anime series like Gundam and Ghost is the Shell.

Everyone knows that the Death Star was constructed specifically because the stormtroopers can't hit anything smaller than a planet.

@ Scott 0 – Yes, based on the films … they are not …