Help support TMP


"The Submarines of October." Topic


8 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

Please do not post offers to buy and sell on the main forum.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the Cold War (1946-1989) Message Board

Back to the Modern Naval Discussion (1946 to 2015) Message Board


Areas of Interest

Modern

Featured Hobby News Article


Featured Link


Featured Ruleset

Pz8 - 1975/2010 Wargame Rules


Rating: gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star 


Featured Workbench Article

Blind Old Hag's Do-It-Yourself Flight Stands

How Blind Old Hag Fezian makes flight stands for 1/300 scale aircraft.


Featured Profile Article

15mm Battlefield in a Box: Bridges

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian finds bridges to match the river sets.


Featured Book Review


Featured Movie Review


1,377 hits since 12 Feb 2013
©1994-2026 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?


TMP logo

Membership

Please sign in to your membership account, or, if you are not yet a member, please sign up for your free membership account.
Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP12 Feb 2013 11:51 a.m. PST

"Washington, D.C., 31 October 2002-- Forty years ago today, the U.S. Navy forced to the surface a Soviet submarine, which unbeknownst to the Navy, was carrying a nuclear-tipped torpedo. This was the third surfacing of a Soviet submarine during the Cuban Missile Crisis. After a day of persistent tracking by the U.S. destroyer, the Charles P. Cecil, commanded by Captain Charles Rozier, Soviet submarine B-36, commanded by Captain Aleksei Dubivko, exhausted its batteries forcing it to come to the surface. On 27 and 30 October respectively, U.S. Navy anti-submarine warfare (ASW) forces surfaced Soviet submarines B-59 and B-130. No one on the U.S. side knew at the time that the Soviet submarines were nuclear-armed; no one knew that conditions in the Soviet submarines were so physically difficult and unstable that commanding officers, fearing they were under attack by U.S. forces, may have briefly considered arming the nuclear torpedoes. Indeed, one of the incidents--the effort to surface B-59 on 27 October 1962--occurred on one of the most dangerous days of the missile crisis, only hours after the Soviet shoot-down of a U-2 over Cuba and as President Kennedy was intensifying threats to invade Cuba.

The U.S.-Soviet conflict over nuclear deployments on Cuba that produced the October 1962 crisis has necessarily been a focal point of public interest, but the drama that unfolded above and below Caribbean waters is now receiving greater attention. While experts on the missile crisis, as well as the participants themselves, have been long aware of the cat-and-mouse game between U.S.ASW forces and Soviet submarines during October and November 1962, only in recent months has the hidden history of Soviet submarine operations during the crisis become more widely known. In the spring of 2002, Russian researcher Alexander Mozgovoi began the revelations when he published The Cuban Samba of the Quartet of Foxtrots, which is available only in Russian and was not released through ordinary commercial channels. Earlier this fall, U.S. Navy veteran Peter A. Huchthausen, who served on the U.S.S. Blandy during the crisis, published October Fury, which for the first time brings together the recollections of American and Russian participants in the confrontation between U.S. destroyers and Soviet submarines. Thanks to Mozgovoi's and Huchthausen's efforts, as well as the recent Havana conference on the missile crisis which produced new details on submarine operations, interested readers now know that Soviet "Foxtrot" (NATO classification) submarines heading toward Cuba were the spearhead of an effort to develop a Soviet naval base at Mariel Bay, Cuba. One of the most startling disclosures was that each of the submarines carried a nuclear-tipped torpedo, which greatly raised the dangers of an incident as the U.S. Navy carried out its efforts to induce the beleaguered Soviet submariners to bring their ships to the surface.

During the missile crisis, U.S. naval officers did not know about Soviet plans for a submarine base or that the Foxtrot submarines were nuclear-armed. Nevertheless, the Navy high command worried that the submarines, which had already been detected in the north Atlantic, could endanger enforcement of the blockade. Therefore, under orders from the Pentagon, U.S. Naval forces carried out systematic efforts to track Soviet submarines in tandem with the plans to blockade, and possibly invade, Cuba. While ordered not to attack the submarines, the Navy received instructions on 23 October from Secretary of Defense McNamara to signal Soviet submarines in order to induce them to surface and identify themselves. Soon messages conveying "Submarine Surfacing and Identification Procedures" were transmitted to Moscow and other governments around the world. The next morning, on 24 October, President Kennedy and the National Security Council's Executive Committee (ExCom) discussed the submarine threat and the dangers of an incident. According to Attorney General Robert Kennedy, when Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara reviewed the use of practice depth charges (PDCs), the size of hand grenades, to signal the submarines, "those few minutes were the time of greatest worry to the President. His hand went up to his face & he closed his fist" (see document three). Within a few days, U.S. navy task groups in the Caribbean had identified Soviet submarines in the approaches to Cuba and were tracking them with all of the detection technology that they had at their disposal.

The U.S. effort to surface the Soviet submarines involved considerable risk; exhausted by weeks undersea in difficult circumstances and worried that the U.S. Navy's practice depth charges were dangerous explosives, senior officers on several of the submarines, notably B-59 and B-130, were rattled enough to talk about firing nuclear torpedoes, whose 15 kiloton explosive yields approximated the bomb that devastated Hiroshima in August 1945. Huchthausen includes a disquieting account of an incident aboard submarine B-130, when U.S. destroyers were pitching PDCs at it. In a move to impress the Communist Party political officer, Captain Nikolai Shumkov ordered the preparations of torpedoes, including the tube holding the nuclear torpedo; the special weapon security officer then warned Shumkov that the torpedo could not be armed without permission from headquarters. After hearing that the security officer had fainted, Shumkov told his subordinates that he had no intention to use the torpedo "because we would go up with it if we did."

Possibly even more dangerous was an incident on submarine B-59 recalled by Vadim Orlov, who served as a communications intelligence officer. In an account published by Mozgovoi (see document 16), Orlov recounted the tense and stressful situation on 27 October when U.S. destroyers lobbed PDCs at B-59. According to Orlov, a "totally exhausted" Captain Valentin Savitsky, unable to establish communications with Moscow, "became furious" and ordered the nuclear torpedo to be assembled for battle readiness. Savitsky roared "We're going to blast them now! We will die, but we will sink them all." Deputy brigade commander Second Captain Vasili Archipov calmed Savitsky down and they made the decision to surface the submarine. Orlov's description of the order to assemble the nuclear torpedo is controversial and the other submarine commanders do not believe that that Savitsky would have made such a command…"
Full article here.
link

Which you consider the real possibilities the Russian Submarines had on those days to made real harm to USA?
I'm speaking about traditional atacks like WW2.
(not launching nuclear bombs)

Thanks in advance for your guidance.

Amicalement
Armand

Ironwolf12 Feb 2013 1:47 p.m. PST

Thanks for the post Armand. Very intersting to read the cuban missile crisis from the Russians point of view. My only issue with the nuke concern is, Russian sub commanders are very professional. So I really reall doubt if any of them would have used a nuke with out higher authority. I could more believe a sub commander out of contact with higher command and using conventional weapons. But then again we probably will never know just how close we came to war.

Lion in the Stars12 Feb 2013 3:03 p.m. PST

Which you consider the real possibilities the Russian Submarines had on those days to made real harm to USA?
I'm speaking about traditional atacks like WW2.(not launching nuclear bombs)

Yeah, a sub is always a threat to a surface ship. I'd assume that the nuclear-tipped torpedoes were intended to sink carriers, but those are probably as dangerous to the launching sub as the target.

Conventional torpedoes, 21"/533mm types, are able to single-shot kill any ship smaller than a carrier. One torp under the keel will do it. You launch multiples to make sure the target can't dodge out of the torpedo's sensor range.

carne6813 Feb 2013 5:04 a.m. PST

Yeah, a sub is always a threat to a surface ship. I'd assume that the nuclear-tipped torpedoes were intended to sink carriers, but those are probably as dangerous to the launching sub as the target.

Not unlike the Mk 45 Astor.

Cke1st13 Feb 2013 11:25 a.m. PST

I've read October Fury. It says the Soviet sub captains were given no ROE's for the use of the nuke torps, except to use their own judgment. They couldn't communicate while submerged, so getting permission in a crisis situation wasn't possible. That was as close as we ever came to a Soviet nuclear attack.

Milites13 Feb 2013 11:28 a.m. PST

I had the priviledge to meet a Soviet SSN commander, did not look like the type to panic, but who knows?

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP13 Feb 2013 11:39 a.m. PST

Glad you had enjoy it my friend Ironwolf.

Thanks for your guidance boys!.

Amicalement
Armand

Lion in the Stars13 Feb 2013 4:36 p.m. PST

I had the priviledge to meet a Soviet SSN commander, did not look like the type to panic, but who knows?
Most of the US types that get handed the keys desperately prayed to never need to use them, and I figure the Soviets were about the same.

Especially when the sub couldn't get clear of the blast radius. I'd save those for moments of "the Motherland is burning, and I have a carrier in my sights. Today is a good day to die!"

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.