"Future Wargaming Center" Topic

My 2 centavos:
I like using the 2 1/2'*6' folding tables available at some of the wholesalers. It gives you flexibility for table size and if 6' is too wide for your "lowest common denominator" you can reconfigure them to be 5' wide.
I'd look into those screens business conference rooms use to divide the room in half. Not only could you subdivide the room for two seperate events, it'd make double-blind games easier.
This one is critical: If you're doing mult-day games with the tables and troops set up you have to provide security measures to protect the miniatures overnight. That means a room seperated from any amenities and doors that can't be broken down easily. If the gamers bring their own figures and don't feel safe leaving them up overnight they won't want to play multi-day games.

Possibly a reading/library area with books (and the bar!)

Being close to Gettysburg is a plus.

I remember years ago a miniature wargame magazine cover that showed a game being played in the back room of a pub. I always wanted to play a game at a pub!

Sorry to say but, I have never understood why I should pay someone to have a Wargame.

A few of the Wargame stores I shop at have large tables and do not charge a fee for there use or if they set up a game for the use of the costumers and other gamers.

Yes I have heard the excuses from our British/United Kingdom/England cousins that there homes are not large like ours in the colony's, so they do not have large game tables.

Yes when I go to a Wargame Convention I pay the entry fee. That comes with the territory of going to a convention. Many games to chose from, shopping in the dealer area, flee markets, ect, etc.
But how good would it go over if you had to pay a sub-fee the play each game?

In today's economy business are not doing well over all, and setting up shop in G-burg may get you the tourist traffic but it is not like if you were in a major metropolitan area.

Think before you leap!

Yeah. The states are huge.
Your pool of prospective clients will be spread out over the whole country.

Glasgow to Kent is what, 4 hours by train. 5/6 by car? Either way guys can travel the length of the country in less than a day. Feasibly any wargamers in The UK would be able to reach me. My knowledge of the states geography is poor but I imagine most of your nearest clients will be in your State and those states that border it. Other clients will be looking at plane flights or long hall two day or more road trips .

To attract them all you'll need a vast array of armies
Ancients – Romans, celts, Germans, dacians, Macedonians, Persians, Indians, Greeks.
Dark Age- Saxons, Vikings, Irish, Picts, Britons
Medieval- English, French, Holy Roman, Byzantine, crusader, moorish, Islamic, Turk, Spanish.
Renaissance – Italian, Swiss, Landshnekt,

The list goes on. You'll need to have every period covered to some extent to widen the appeal. Limit the number of periods and your limiting the interested parties.

The appeal is the ability to use figures that look nicer than mine, on a table better thAn I can produce. Gaming something I'm interested in but don't have the time and money to collect

I live about 4 hours from G-burg and I'd love to drive out for some games. I would like the option of using my own figures as part of larger games- I love to bring out my own toys. The table would not be my main motivation- I would go just to get involved in much bigger games that I could not find locally.

Also, a retail area that carries alot of the historical stuff (including the less easily available lines, not just warlord and perry plastics) would force me to empty my bank account while wearing an insane grin.

I'd be interested if two conditions were met:

1. Lots of well painted miniatures pushed across spectacular terrain, along the lines of the picture of the ACW game. Felt pieces and poorly painted figures wouldn't be worth the expense and travel.

2. Consumption of booze during games is a must.

Just to get you in the mood
americancivilwar.be/home_en.html

and a picture from last year
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This is an excellent example of why NOT to. 20 euro a head is not a business. I'm not sure if the op is really trying to make money or not, maybe he can figure something if the property is earning independently of the gaming…..(will he have rooms to rent?). I mean if I travel to historicon from Dallas I am looking at. 350 flight…..75 a night for a room….food,meals and drink….30 a day depending on how much booze and how fine dinning…..and a relatively minor con entrance fee, and finally drooping a load at vendors. This is what you will compete with, and it's why I am having a hard time seeing this as a feasible business……

I looked up the website for the WHC in England, and they seem to run the operation as a Bed and Breakfast. Sandwich luncheon included and something called 'elevenses', which must mean the WHC is staffed by hobbits. Coffee and tea always available. A game every two weeks or so, and every other game a big one followed by a weekender. Costs runs 150 EU to 350 EU for the package (about $225 USD to $450 USD if I recall the conversions). So you are out an additional cost of an evening out for each night you stay. But that also gets you out into the sunlight where the moss and lichens can fall off.

That's certainly not cheap, by any means, but you're not going to get the typical el cheapo American gamer anyway. They prefer their unheated/uncooled garages. You need to provide a game they just are not going to be able to find or put on in a local or regional venue. I wonder if Kriegspiel would be a winner.

Like others have said, you will need to provide top of the line figures and terrain. For good money, you will need to be better than good for the figures and terrain. I'd stay away from the booze, though. It would double your insurance rates, treble after the first gamer on gamer fight. Though if you recorded the fight, you might be able to make some money a la 'bum fights'. Just a thought…

No booze, no play!

I seem to recall some guy on here wanted to do the same thing in San Antonio, Texas. Perhaps a year ago. I guess the idea evaporated.

I attended the WHC twice when stationed with the USAF in the UK during the 80's. Peter Gilder was alive then and ran splendid games. I'm sure at the time I considered it a bit expensive, but both times I left elated with the experiences. Both events were Napoleonic games, and it glued me to the hobby. A local B&B provided a group rate lodging, and if I recall, a pub was availabale either close by or in the same facility.

I've no idea if this can be replicated in the US at Gettysburg. I was pondered the idea of doing the same near Williamsburg, Virginia. That was in the 90's. Williamsburg, on the peninsula, is saturated with historical battlefilds ans sited from the AWI and ACW. The US Navy is close by, and offers attractions to the public. The dream stayed a dream as life got in the way and I landed in Texas (good move!!!).

Speaking only for myself, I'd prefer a venue similar to what Gilder offered. What would I pay? I have no idea. Its a haul from Houston to Gettysburg, but I'd be up to it.

Some of the points to dissuade this notion are valid. We're law suit happy in the US, so I would imaging zoning, licences, insurance liabilities, etc could throw some serious wrenches in the dream. I'd like to be wrong.

If you successfully launch the venue and put on some games in eras I like (horse and mustket), I'd give it visit.

Fyi, back in 2002 my wife started a home based business. She left a successful business she owned on Long Island, to try something new here in Texas. She had beaucoup nay-sayers, and I frankly was skeptical as hell. She went from six figures to a check of about $60 USD the first month. And bills up the ying-yang to launch. Good thing I had a jop also to keep the lights on at home. She kept at it………. preservered and pursued a passion. Tripped up a bunch. Made mistakes. She personifies the cliche 'I will certainly fail if I don't try.' Today, a success again.

Wish you luck bro…

Paul/Houston

You should start some new conventions. Thats where the money is if done correctly…

This seems to have gone way off topic….

OP has his mind set on a WHC. This is very different to running a convention or running some kind of bigger club meet.

When running a WHC the centre staff must have total control. You need to own the figures and terrain. You need to know the rules better than all the players – so in house sets are a good idea.

It is unwise to allow drinking at the table. Even soft/hot drinks can spell disaster. Frequent refreshment breaks are best. I never liked playing with/against players who were drinking – let alone drunk. Smoking is also a no-no.

Players have to turn up with willingness to play along with what the hosts organise and just have fun.

Frankly – there are many better ways to make money and a WHC is a 'hobby business' realy. I think it could make money but not heaps of cash. IS anyone making heaps of cash from a wargames business? Doubtful. If they put the same effort/investment into something else they could probably make more.

Assuming the OP knows the risks/rewards and is a grown up I say go for it.

A big issue that you might not have considered. There is already such a place in Gettysburg. link

and their games are free! In fact, they are how I returned to the hobby after my youth. They set up some tables on the sidewalk and had a demo CW naval game.

I think it's a great way to lose money.

You need a unique selling point.
Something the punter cannot get elsewhere and will be HAPPY to forgo his beer and pizza whilst paying a couple hundred dollars a day.
Which is why the tables are so big in the venues over here in the UK.
USP.
Everyone has big tables in the states.
They've been there and done that.
So don't bother.
You need reasonably big, because you want multi player games.
You want 10 players to turn up for a week end, not 2.
That of itself can be a problem because you want multiple groups to play together.
So you want a game where you can do that.
It should have repeat value because your easiest sell is existing customers.
Which is why re-fighting Kursk or waterloo or whatever is bad.

If I had to do it myself.
I would go with ww2 double blind.
Two rooms with an adjoining door.
Table in each with duplicated terrain.
You need another ref though.
Double blind games are great but they're hard work for the ref.
You'd burn out if you did an entire day on your own.
Two on the run just would see you with a headache and making mistakes half way through the second day.
You need to be entertaining and creative as you resolve stuff.
But the regular double blind game at the club were easily the most entertaining games I've ever played.

Anyhow.
My wargames centre wouldn't cater for napoleonics, acw, 7yw and whatnot.
It would, however, be very entertaining and could entertain 16 or 20 people a week end.
Plus I have a head start in the shape of a large ww2 collection and 40 years background.

Not in US so this might not be useful, but how about making the facility available for other people to run games. A club or group (or internet group) might, to pick a random example, want to run Kursk in micro-armour, have the kit and scenic basics, but think it worth booking a nice facility with big table(s). This avoids you having to constantly think up/GM the games.

Also in the UK there are 1 or 2 venues with halls of 6 x 4 tables for small tournament use. Its a slightly different thing, and maybe less appealing, but could keep things ticking if your space allows it.

Dear Ed

Okay Okay, enough of this. Let's start throwing some numbers togther.

I know a bit about this as I have my own side business in real-estate, property rentals, property management , and the like so I can speak somewhat knowledgeably about it. Also put on conventions, events, and organized junkets and trips.

1. PLANT – You don't want to do this out of your home. First off, unless you're Citizen Kane, you don't have a house big enough, and you won't HAVE a home (your wife and family will leave if you try and do it). You can't do it out of a hotel because then you're just running a convention, and you want to make it a sequestered war game experience. So you're going to have to buy a piece of property, which means a seven bedroom (at least) home with three baths, to make it in the B&B manner. You can't do this in a city because it's going to be too expensive, and you'll need parking for 12 to 20 cars (depending on where people are coming from) and you want it reasonably out of town for the peace, quiet etc. You'll want some grounds so people can lounge there, have outdoor parties there, some barbeques and just sitting and relaxing, and even perhaps on a balmy day, have a game outside on a table under a fly tent on the lawn, so you're talking somewhere about an hour out of town. Places like this aren't hard to find and you can probably get a 7 bedroom place (sleeps 12 guests and you, because you'll have to be there to watch what goes on and run things and serve the customers and manage the staff, so that's one bedroom for you. You can usually get these (depending on the area) for about $500,000. USD

You can probably furnish these in good B&B style for about $10,000. USD The second hand furniture market is completely depressed now. People can't sell their old furniture and are giving it away. You can get bargain basement prices for good stuff, and you can get all the china, dishware, and stuff you need cheaper still. You can buy a whole cut-glass collection which would have cost you $12,000 USD twenty years ago for $500 USD now. People don't know what they are looking at. (What else can you expect from a generation that orders its food from a clown face and has it thrown at them through a hole in a cinder block wall.). So that's $10,000. USD

You're going to need about $30,000 USD for an SUV or a panel truck that can have seats in it to pick up and drop off people form airports, schlep stuff around, haul equipment etc. So that's $30,000. USD

On top of that about $10,000 USD for other equipment, grounds equipment etc. So we are talking a total of $550,000 USD investment in Plant.

2. OPERATING EXPENSES Upkeep, maintenance, grounds, repairs, improvements etc. A seven bedroom three bath house will take about $2,000 USD a year to heat (you won't be operating in the really cold months, few people take vacations then, and you should be able to get by with that. Maybe $3,000. USD Electricity will be cheap about $100 USD a month (you will only use it during event times). Phone, grounds trimming etc, another $1,000 USD a year, and figures about 2 % of the cost of the plant for repairs and replacement (broken crockery, fixed faucets, SUV repairs etc, improvements to the house, that's about $10,000 USD, that's about $14,200. USD We'll assume you have the money to pay for the Plant and don't have to finance it, so you aren't burdening your cost with mortgage interest and repayment.

Then you have to have staff. You can't do the housekeeping yourself, you have too much to do entertaining and hosting your guest, doing the planning and managing things. You need a staff. This means you're going to need one, maybe two cleaning persons or a service to come in and do the daily housekeeping for the slobs you're going to have over, so let's assume you only need them for the time they are there, say two weeks out of a month (the other two weeks you're going to be resetting the place for the next crowd to come in. So that's say 20 hours a week, times two weeks, times $10.00 USD an hour so that's $400 USD a person for two weeks so $800 USD for housekeeping.

Then there's meals. You CERTAINLY don't want to get bogged down in the cooking, nor doing the bus-boy work and dirty dishes so you have to have a part-time cook, and two part-time helpers for him both to serve, clean up, do the helping and maybe serve drinks. So Let's just take another $400 USD a person for the helpers, and a cook will probably cost you three times that if he's a good one. Remember he has to plan good meals and take care of people who may have special dietary restrictions for religious, health, or personal reasons. So that's say $600 USD a week for two weeks, plus the $400 USD each for two servers/dishwashers so that's $2,000 USD for the cook staff and a total of about $2,800 USD for the whole staff for a two week stint.

THAT's just for the staff.

You can use a catering service, but that gets you into basically a very fancy mess-hall where you have a limited menu, (they really only want to serve you what their food distributor sells them) and special orders will be a problem. Besides having a cook in the hat and all that makes you seem classier. As for the cost of the meals themselves you can do pretty well with about $8.00 USD a person per meal, so a two week stint if you can fill the facility with 12 people means $96 USD a day times 14 days is $1,344.00 USD for the two weeks to feed the guests. Beer, wine and Munchies is going to cost about DOUBLE that, and you're going to have to have a lot of it as gamers will tend to hog down like pigs when the eats and booze are free, so that's about $4,032 USD for the food and bar bill for 12 guys for two weeks.

Probably you will have them for a maximum of one week each, and for the moment assume that you can fill the facility each day, and have two "crowds" come in on successive weeks.

4.INSURANCE- You're going to HAVE to have this because you have to be protected against some fat oaf getting drunk and showing you how he can shinny up a drainpipe. Thankfully this sort of thing is not really THAT expensive and you can probably get away with about $5,000 USD a year and even that I think is on the high side.

5. YOU~ It makes no sense if you get nothing out of this and so you will have to cost your own time. What YOU have to do is be on site ALL the time the guest are there (for management, emergency, and social purposes, and you will probably have to be there even when the facility is empty so that means it's a full time job. Even if you give yourself the rather meager salary of $50 USD an hour (which is dirt-cheap consultants pay) that's $50 USD x 40 hours = $2,000 USD per week or $104,000 USD per year. Believe me, even with your staff you'll earn it because remember you have to LIVE there and you can't go home and while you have guests you will be "On" 24 hours a day. So don't stint yourself.

So OK, ballpark we have for DAY TO DAY expenses.

Remember on staff, food etc., you're only paying for two one week sessions each month for six months.

Heat, light, repairs, improvements, $14,200 USD PER YEAR
Staff $2,800 USD X 6= $16,800 USD PER YEAR
Your Salary $104,000 USD
Food and bar $4,032 USD x 6= $24,192 USD per year
Insurance $5,000 USD per year.

Total $164,192. USD

Now… you want to make a profit on each step of the way as a carrying charge and a contribution towards the defraying of overhead, so let's assume you put a 40% markup on everything except your salary, which is a direct compensation. So that's 60,192/40%= $240,676 USD so $240,976 USD + $60,192 USD is $84,868 USD

WAIT we're not finished yet! We have to take into consideration your return on investment, that is the $550,000 USD you spent on plant. It's not unreasonable to expect a 5% return on investment. That is, that each year you will have a profit which will return to you 5% (hopefully greater) of the cost of the plant. Actually you want something that is greater than the depreciation but this may price you out of the market, so let's leave it at 5%. That means 5% of $550,000 USD is $27,500 USD which means you take that and put it on top of the $84,868 USD is $112,368. USD Now add back in your compensation of $104,000 USD and you have $216,368 USD Total, which is the amount of money that WILL go out of the operation to keep it going and that you WANT to get out of the operation (as far as your salary and the return on investment.

So, let's assume you set up your operating schedule for two weeks each month in the months of April to October (the winter months and holiday months are out and the best time you have to sell your package is in the warmer months when most people have their vacations. So that means that you will have two one week sessions each month for 6 months for 12 people Assume you can fill the facility for each day of the month, which is the BEST you can get, which is 2 weeks times six months times 12 =144 revenue creating slots which means if you take the $216,368 USD and divide it by 144 means $1,502 USD a person for the one week slot. Round it up with taxes and other stuff and let's call it $1,600 USD for a week at your war gaming Nirvana.

Now I've obviously skimmed over this, and I could point out that you will have to factor in less than full occupancy, emergence etc., so less say you can fill the place to only 80% so that's $1,600 USD/80% so that means the charge would be $2,000. USD

So. Will gamers pay $2,000 USD for a week of gaming?

I think they might PROVIDED you emphasize the following.

1. You are in a quiet peaceful sequestered place, pretty, out of the way, but still close to transportation.
2. The immersive experience of being in a sort of "war game retreat" with games for the whole week, or the ability to prowl a really good war game and historical library.
3. Watch war films and historical videos to ones hearts content in relaxation.
4. Outdoor events at the retreat, and lots of discussion.
5. You don't have to do anything, its all done for you, like a cruise-line without the cruise ship where the toilets back up and the staff rips you off, and it's concentrated on gaming.
6. The ability to go with buddies, or take pot luck and meet new people, and everything is focused on games.
7. You don't have to cook and the bar is always open. The fact that there's nowhere to go means that if people get riproarously drunk, all they can do is fall down and can't drive off the premises will help with insurance.
8. Forget the venders or a retail area. People aren't there to buy and if they want you can have a computer hook up to any of the vendors with web-sites where they can order things, and have them delivered to your hotel and perhaps have them arrive for the end of the week.
9. Forget the tours of historical sights. You can do that any time. People are not going to pay $2,000 USD to go and look at Gettysburg. They're paying for the war games.
10. The prices are not out of line and far less I think than many overseas tours, cruise lines and certainly not out of like of many vacation package deals.

The only problem is that war gamers are incredibly cheap- and grubby. There will be some who would do it. Even I would, if the experience was top drawer enough. It probably would. At $2,000 USD the cheapies and grubbies won't ever come.

So yeah- Ed, it might work.

Your Customer base.

The big thing though is going to be this. At $1,750 USD for a week a person might come ONCE a year. He won't do it more than twice, so that means you will have to get 144 people who are willing to pay the $2,000 USD for the weekend wargame experience. Again, given the spread out nature of America, I don't know how many will do that with an air-fare slapped on top! You would have to rely on having a cadre of repeat business of 144 to 200 people within say a driving time radius of four hours or a radius of 250 miles.

Might work…

I think the markup and the paying for the plant are out of line if your already considering a $104,000 USD salary, at least in central PA. I mean 104,000 is almost 2.5 times the medium US household income. And most people pay their rent/mortgage out of that. Plus you will get depreciation on the house (expect personal spaces).

Otto is assuming that Ed buys the facility (in which case, don't forget property taxes!)

But a more likely scenario would be to rent something. Find some perfect spot that is some cross between a B&B and a retreat, find out when their down-season is, and then contract with them to rent that space during that season, for a few consecutive weekends per year.

That way you can subcontract their staff, take a ride on their insurance, etc. And you can have plenty of time between those seasons, to plan and organize, say, a half dozen big annual events, and then promote them.

If it starts to really take off, then you can think about expanding and running a longer schedule of events.

PS – no matter what it costs, gamers will bitch about it.

If it's free, I guarantee that they'll complain about that, too.

Dear Tom O'Mally

The Plant is not way out of line because of the type of place you want. You want the best because otherwise you won'd get people willing to pay $2,000 USD a week for a dump. So you're talking high-end property, and somewhat luxurious as well. Remember impression and appearance is everything.

Second, who cares what the salary for the people in central PA is. It's the service Ed will provide is what you are paying for. His management salary therefore has to come out of the product he provides. The simple fact is that your time is a commodity you sell at a rate. If you can make more doing something else, you do that. Ed, I know, is worth a LOT more than $104,000 USD for other things he can do, and an hour is an hour is an hour. If he can make more selling his time at place A than place B, he should go to place A. Therefore his salary is not dependent on what the cow-poop kickers and wait-staff in central PA get, it's comensurate with the product he provides. You want someone to provide a care-free, worry free, luxurious wargame weekend, that's what you're going to pay for, for Ed to be your tour director, you're guide. He's going to be the Ricardo Montalban of this little Fantasy Island.

White suits cost a lot. Dwarves cost even more.

Klumpenproletariat is right, I didn't factor in taxes, but that's probably not going to be much more than $15,000 USD a year. Thats pretty high even for New Jersey where I live That can be fit in with the generous numbers I gave. Second, as far as markup- markup is markup. A 40% markup is average in business in America for most industries. Food comes in at only about a 5% and usually lower, sometimes as 1% (remember that the next time you're grousing at the checkout line in the Store about the cost of a uart of milk and a steak. Jewelry is 400 to 800 % markup. Sometimes higher. Our own company here in electronics is 40% and cosmetics is about 60%. They vary all up and down the scale depending on the industry, and hotels (which is sort of the closest industry) he would be to, is about 60% to 80%. I know of several B&B's that are in the 80% range. So if anything I UNDERESTIMATED the markup.

As for depreciation that's not a very strong producer of income nor does it give you much on your taxes. You get zip for rental receipts. The real savings come when you own and can deduct the ENTIRE amount from your balance sheet. If you OWN it's a business and its all fair game. If you RENT you just can deduct the rental expense, but rest assured that the rentor is piling on all HIS mark-up into your rent, so you're paying it anyway and not getting any benefit from it. Besides, if you rent you have no control over the facility and can't do, decorate, redecorate and operate it as you want. You have to live within the conditions of the lease which is at the behest of the landlord, and he can put you out of business at the drop of a hat. Further, he will always be like the silent partner (the one with his hand perpetually in the till) and if you have a good year, he will want a good year too.

The other thing is that you can on off seasons change the mphasis of the B&B or in the downtimes of the war game Nirvanha cater to other tourists, other groups.

You already get a break on the insurance by it being part time. You don't ever want to get into paying health insurance etc. not in the age of Osama bin Obama. Remember, anything you sub-contract out you have little control of and you're going to pay the subcontractors mark-up anyway, and oh yeah-- HIS management salary as well.

Klumpenproletariat is of course correct, gamers will bitch about it and even if he is right, they'd bitch about that too.

The main problem is that Ed would be catering to the elite of the elite of gaming- people with disposable income capable of shelling out from $1,500 USD to #2000 for a week. Considering the air of the Dystlestink (as I believe you've called it) and the number of people who will sleep in their cars in a K-mart parking lot rather than pay for a hotel room, those who will go for the price are few and far between.

There's also a control issue.

If ed is the owner-proprieter he has control over who gets allowed back. People will be a bit more careful if they know they will be held directly responsible for any damage or mess they make, including if they will be allowed back. When you rent, people think that whatever depredations they do are the landlords care and since they won't be held directly liable, they get a bit, shall I say rambunctious and careless. That's why he has to be there to watch what's going on. That's the reason he gets the salary.

If he's not, the landlord will simply charge him back (with more markup) and you get into an endless "he said, you said" bame where you're in the middle arguing between what the landlord says your guest did and what ghe guest says he didn't do. Usually you won't have that problem with someone who'se going to pay $2,000 USD for a week. but you never know.

This may be a little bit off topic, but have you considered opening up a strip club?…..

I think the numbers just show why b&b is a bad way to go.
Something way cheaper with a bar and motel nearby would mean a way lower investment.

Find some perfect spot that is some cross between a B&B and a retreat, find out when their down-season is, and then contract with them to rent that space during that season, for a few consecutive weekends per year.

The Catholic Church may have some properties that they're selling, like an old monastery, retreat house, or the like. Even a church with a rectory:

link

EdDowgiallo:
My suggestion would be to concentrate on providing everything but the figures for war-games. Large and many tables, superior terrain, earthworks and fortifications for a wide variety of periods of times, buildings appropriate to various periods and locations, etc. would supplement gamer's resources. For those gamers who have no figures, I would suggest a limited investment in figures of likely opponents such as Egyptians and Hittites, Romans and Gauls, Medieval French and English, 7YW Austrians and just about anyone else, French Napoleonic and Russian Napoleonic, WWII Germans and Soviet Russians, maybe some modern Micro Armour. Do not over invest in figures, ask gamers to bring their own to use and show-off!
The bar or pub would indeed be nice. A book store or book niche geared towards wargamers' interests and possibly a store for selling figures to those who no longer wish to remain have-nots would be an idea. Maybe a lounge or public area where lectures and discussions about military history and gaming could be held. That same lounge might feature a wide-screen T.V. and movies/ documentaries of a martial nature for those not gaming to watch. Perhaps a cluster of computers or a mobile cart of lap-tops for the children of gamers where the digital progeny can while away their time (for a nominal fee) while Daddy fights the Prussians to a halt. Something for the wives and daughters might be nice but I have no idea what that might be. Wait a minute – Horse riding!
Come to think of it you might widen your market to include model train enthusiasts. Much of the terrain and accessories could do double duty and IIRC the Lancaster area has lots of model train enthusiasts. This could bring more money into your pocket and give you more capital to work with down the road.
Just some random thoughts.
Rod Robertson.

OSchmidt… I did a lot of that math back in the early 90s for the Williamsburg area. Part of the reason I walked away. Gave me a real headache researching the mumbers. Gilder's place had ambiance. The B&B nearby, with bar, I'm sure cut out a lot of the angst for him. No way I'd make a live-in retreat of the venture.

I like Condottiere's idea of looking at Church properties. Hadn't thought of that one.

I have to disagree with Otto's analysis. Running the wargaming center is what I intend to do from the time I retire until I croak. Personal satisfaction is an intangible part of the 'income' from the operation. As long as my other investments provide adequate income, the center does not need to turn much of a profit.

Whether or not it is worth my time to pursue this if it does not produce a 6 figure income is a personal/philosophical decision.

We are currently pricing a gaming area that would hold up to three 6' x 96' tables. We will not be competing against basements and hobby stores with a facility of that size.

We will certainly host game days, as well as allow clubs to rent the facility and run their own games using our terrain.

I'm still not seeing requests for specific battles to put into the first year's schedule.

Ed

It is human nature that you will get heaps of 'advice' but few answers to your questions.

I'd say you need to think up interesting games – avoid the old chestnuts and beware of games that have very limited options for the players.

Normandy provides some intersting games and is difficult for players to do at home. Anything with difficult terrain is an idea. Snowy terrain? Desert? Mountains? Anything with lots of buildings like Cassino or Stalingrad.

Arnhem is always popular but I think it has very little game play unless you take liberties with the OBs/timeline etc.

I know next to nothng about ACW and just don't get the appeal which is clearly there for many. I always liked the idea of Napoleonics but could never get a good game out of it. Spectacular though.

Rules are the 'software' of the experience and matter more than you might think if you want repeat business.

If you can get the games to really work with a random mix of strangers then you will have squared the circle so to speak.

I would be tempted to write my own rules and keep them largely closed to the players who just make decisions and have it adjudicated by the GMs. Players like to roll their own dice though.

BTW – don't specifically cater for the non-gaming family and friends of the customers. Many want to escape from that side of their lives for a few days.

But you could coordinate with local attractions.

On the whole I think the wives and girl-friends/children would be better off getting a 'pass' to take their own trip without their manchild husband/boyfriend/dad.

In a best case scenario they could go stay with her parents for the week with strict instructions to say dad was on a training course/business trip!

Maybe you should have those phonebooths with background noise from an airport/train station so they can call up and explain how the flight is delayed. But I suppose that won't work anymore with the internet…

Jokes aside I think very few will want to bring their families or many families will want to come. Just research a few things for them to do if they absolutely insist.

If you own the "plant" you take depreciation over 27.5 years. If you rent you take the rent. Van would be written off over 3 years. Some things like tables you write off in the year bought. At least that's how I remember it from working as a auditor for the US IRS.

Dear Ed

John has a good idea on the church properties. We have up by my an old abbey that has been vacant for years. The only problem with this is that it's enormous! Far more than you would need. Again, like finding a hotel for a convention it's a Goldllocks thing.

But then there's the recondition and rehabilitation.

As for your avocation to do this, that's a good and wonderful thing, and I know you're a nice guy, but trust me on this. It's going to get real old real quick because if you expect people to pay for it, you're at their beck and call and that means- you work for them. You may think it will be nice not to take a salary out of it, but unless, as Klumpenproletariat says, you enjoy people bitching at you for trivial things, you're going to want to get something out of it. Besides, as I've found out, the more you do for gamers the more they want the greater their sense of entitlement.

I used to organize the whole convention effort for my group of friends, which included organizing the room rentals, making sure we had the right rooms so we could play games in the room on our off time and at night, the ice-chest, refreshments, food, transport everything. It eventually became too much as everytome someone had an idea of "how great it would be if we could do or had XXXXX" they all looked down at the end of the table to me. Finally I got tired and stopped doing it. About two years later they finally stopped calling me asking me if I had made the arrangements, (it took them to finally realize I wasn't going to do it any more, after telling them ten times. One guy asked another friend why I stopped doing it. He said "Well Otto got tired of all the work and putting on his games with no help and no thanks." The answer from the guy was a look of astonishment and he said with a completely straight face "Oh, I thought he liked knocking himself out like that!"

If you intend to buy a property, be absolutely certain that you can get favorable zoning treatment from the local authorities before investing one single dime in the project.

What types of armies and figures do you already own? We would need to know that before making requests for specific battles. I think it is clear that doing Gettysburg is at the top of most of our lists.

Hey Ed.

Seriously, the double blind games are the best I ever played.
And you would be offering a type of game a tiny minority of players can find.

All you need in terms of property is 2 rooms and two tables.
We usually use 4x4.
6 by 8 would be very big for this sort of game.

You can get like 10 or 12 players per game.
If you charge 100 dollars a player per day then that's 2 grand a week end.
OK when you start up you will be getting maybe 4 customers.
That's still 800 smackers though.

All you need is a small sort of a village hall or big scout hut kind of venue.
2 rooms, a toilet and kitchen.
Rent the thing.
There's a fair chance your business is going to make a loss.
Plan to allow for that.

Double blind is great for you.
You get a game you can pack people in on a fairly small table.
It's a unique experience which is hard for people to do themselves.
Customers will be gagging to play it again = repeat business.
You can easily change up the scenarios without a load new figures and terrain.
ww2 is THE most popular period.

Only problem is it's hard work, you need to duplicate everything and you need to be creative.
Since you will be keeping costs down then if you pack people in you should have enough money to pay someone to run games.

Forget the bar, B&B, library and sailing boat.
Just do the game.
Do a deal with a local sandwich shop or whatever and optionally order in lunch.
You're not making it, not your responsibility.
Want pizza?
"Yes we sometimes go for pizza in the evening."
Want beer?
"Yes there's a great bar down the road. Sorry, we're not licensed and we'd prefer you to only drink in the kitchen or at the card table provided."

Forget HUGE.
White elephants are huge.
Clubs already have huge spaces.
They won't rent yours.

Forget refighting specific battles.
Some smart alec will always moan about this or that is all wrong. The next time you run it then that counts out your previous customers.

Also.
Plan some emergency games.
Some games will be all over half way through the second day and you need a filler.
Everyone round one table for a changed up 3 or 4 hour game.

In summary.

Minimise up front cost.
Minimise risk.
Maximise players per referee.
Together that maximises your profits.
Grandiose plans = grandiose financial risk.

Plan on only you running this thing.
Find something which is UNIQUE.
Remember unless you have something really fab, nobody will pay you a bean.
Also remember.
You're going to make your hobby into work.

Dear Pbishop

I known. The numbers though, CAN work. The problem is not going to be the facility, organization or management. The problem is the customers. It always comes down to the uncertainty of the clientele. Can you get a sufficiently large pool of clients to support it. It's all cash-flow really. For cash flow you need customers and that's the really weak point of the idea.

I know if Ed were to offer the whole resort for $2,000 USD for a week, where I'd go and have to not bring anything but an overnight bag, have good games, good food, relaxed atmosphere, good accomodations, friendly gamers, calm atmosphere, library, places to dicuss and have a good time, I'd do it. But I don't know how many others there would be.
.

Don't forget to add in the cost of terrain and figures, copies of rules etc. YOU WILL need to furnish figures for both sides and they need to be immaculate and spectacular.

No one should have to haul in stuff, you need to furnish everything. In that way you can assure the quality and look of the game. The terrain needs to be awesome and you will probably have to factor in making custom terrain or having someone make it.

Playtest, Playtest, Playtest. Playtest weeks before the first game. Forget double blind, that's for board wargames and campaigns. You want to have everything laid out for all to see and be amazed at. Don't hide anything.

I hate to say this because I have the occasional beer (while gaming at my house in my large climate control garage with audio system playing period music and kitchen nearby) you don't want to serve alcohol. You would need a liqueur license and additional insurance.

I would consider catering. We rent our facilities at work all the time and there are some great catering services with a nice variety of offerings.

No battlefield tours for gamers because you don't have time. People want to game, a lot! Four hours sleep if that. I want to be totally exhausted and happy when I leave. I want my moneys worth.

You might make arrangements with a tour service to provide post game tours (they pay the service) for those who want to stay a few extra days. Leave the family at home.

If I am paying that much for gaming I don't want someone's 12 year old kid handling the cavalry brigade because he/she is so cute and we need to give him/her something to do. No way! Serious but friendly gamers only.

Having the game at an historical battlefield may sound great but it is a huge distraction from the game. Move it to the center of the country so people on the west coast and southwest don't have to fly across the country. If I go to Gettysburg and I am all over the battlefield not gaming. Unless I have time for a post game tour.

Der Alte Fritz,

The types of armies and figs that I already have are not a consideration. The scale is set at 28mm for land and 1/1200 for ACW or earlier naval and 1/2400 for RJW and later naval. This year I will be expanding the collection as necessary to accommodate the 2015 schedule.

Battle of Gettysburg is on the schedule.

What else should I add? Someone suggested Napoleonic French and Russians. That would suggest the Battles of Bordino and Berezina to me, or would the Napoleonic British and Prussians be more popular for a refight of the Battle of Waterloo? Would it be easier to put up some surveys?

Thank you,
Ed

"What else should I add? "

I suspect most people don't care too much about the specific battle. A good game is a good game. The rules to be used are a lot more important. You might be doing my absolute favorite battle, but if it's a rules set I don't like, then I won't be interested. (And vice-versa; if it's a rule set I enjoy, then I don't care what the battle is.)

And of course, most rules aren't really geared for huge demo games, so even a good rules set can break down, if it's stretched beyond its intended scope. Finding the right rules will be key. And then… what happens if the players don't know the rules? Will there be tutorials? Will participants be sent copies in advance?

I think everybody's had the experience of going to a convention to participate in some monster game that looked really impressive… only to find that it was a miserable experience, either because of bad rules, or bad refereeing, or both.

That matters a lot to people, especially if they're going to devote a lot of time and money to travel and stay for the game.

Briefing Rooms.

As part of your USP, and to help build up the teamwork, ensure you have a dedicated Briefing/Break out room for each team of players. Or just one, timetabled for each team, with quickly swappable tokens; flags, crests, tropies, lances, etc…You'd quickly build up a repetoire of memorablia for Union/Reb, French/British etc…And having one's name isncribed on a trophy, or team photo, might subconsciouly encourage repeat custom…Think this sort of thing, but take the table out – thats much much bigger, and in the main hall, and substitute banks of leather armchairs and maybe a lectern:

If part of your USP is the priviledge of playing a really big game within a semi-formal command structure against another bunch of players, perhaps with 'retained' team captains who know the rules inside and out and who you know will resolve any rules disputes with you, the Umpire, quickly and quietly, allocate each team its own space, even if its just a Disposal staff tent. Maybe invite reeactors to act as sentries etc..

Some kind of leather seated banked briefing room in the Carrier Air Group style would be even better…And you could start the weekend with a audio visual run thru of the rules and plan, then split out for each team captain to present his plan, etc.

This is wargaming at its best, in the Grand Manner, and virtually impossible to achieve in the normal hurly burly of club gaming, but ideally suited to your 'retreat'.

Hell, if your located next to Gettysburg National Military Park I might just fly across the Pacific one time….

And do confine Alchol to the evening's formal Mess Dinner (well, pre dinner cocktails too of course and afterwards a withdrawal back to the briefing room – war stories are so much better told with a glass of whiskey in a leather armchair by a roaring fire.) And the Sunday game is just not the same without a hangover….

"You're going to make your hobby into work."

BINGO!

I've lost count of how many people have come to me with some retirement idea of opening a bookstore, a hobby shop, a whatever…. And everytime, its the same answer: if you're not ready to make it a full up business, DON'T BOTHER. And I know; ran my own business and bought and paid for the knowledge the hard way (and now, I get PAID for that knowledge; at least some good has come out of it).

Frankly, I don't see anything that resembles a viable business plan in this pie-in-the-sky scheme that would even hit break even (much better off investing in CDs with their horrid return). Different gaming culture, different dynamics, even different geography. But hey, its your money…..

Look- If you have enough money to make this a labour of love that is an affordable loss every year, do it. I would.
This isn't a buisiness venture, it's a club- if you can attract, or are part of a group who can establish a trust to insure its functioning for a few years, hit them up and pony up yourself. If you are not relatively independent, and have no private investors, prepare to lose more than you can afford to. Sorry about that or glad about that- depends on your 'circumstances'. R

Ya, and Sparker is right- you need a hall in the manner of a great house to really do it justice.

Back to 'what games to run' and I think flexibility is key.

Some people are dying ot play 'Waterloo' or 'Gettysburg' or some other refight but many who have done it already know it makes for a rather dull game. Taking an historical OB and running a hypothetical battle is often better.

I enjoy refighting historical engagements as a tool to investigate the situation and test my rules but I don't think they make good multiplayer competitive games.

You will need 1 umpire/GM per 3 players plus 1 master GM (you). In time you may have dedicated customers who you could co-opt to fulfill this role.

I'm assuming your rules will be written just for your games. If not you will encounter arguments between people with different interpretations of the rules. Hence the multiple umpires to do most of the number crunching while the players focus on tactics/strategy. I know some like the ultra competitive style of game but that is surely for tournaments.

You also need the rules to be 'advanced' and not the oversimplified 'Warhammer' style. So if new players are to turn up and play you will need umpires to adjudicate combat results etc.

If it's a week long holiday you should start with a small game lasting only half a day for players to get the feel of your rules.

It's nice to keep rules out of the players clutches but over time your regulars will learn them so having umpires on hand to keep the newer players up with the flow and not messing it all up is I think necessary. Chances are you'll open with groups of 3-4 players anyway so you can likely manage that yourself.

I used to dream of running a wargames centre when I was a good deal younger but have never had the private means necessary. You will not – I'm sure you know – make money and will indeed lose money. But it's your money to lose and I say why not? It could be great fun for the right kind of person.

Another key fctor is being able to bar the objectionable players who spoil it for everyone else. Wargaming seems to attract the asocial/antisocial types who may have Auspergers or just be holes. You don't want these types coming back year after year…

I don't like the idea of having to rely on employees, volunteers or whoever.
This is one of my problems with huge games.

Aside from the huge venue, huge amounts of terrain and huge amounts of figures. These are also problems.

OK, Games.

Perhaps looking at one game a month, 12 throughout the year.

1:1200 naval with big battles will look great. Limited terrain should mean that you can easily vary battles. I would start with Nelson-era: Trafalgar, Aboukir Bay, Copenhagen, Glorious 1st June.

If I was playing WW2, as a Brit I would want to play WW2 Desert. I suggest Normandy is a must, and Kursk etc. on the Eastern front.

ACW: Plan to do all the big battles. Gettysburg to start.

Napoleonic: Get the tables and do Leipzig as a single battle.

Ancients: Pick a hero – Alexander, Hannibal, Caesar – and plan to do all their battles on an epic scale.

Two things would interest me in paying to stay at a center like the one proposed. First is the "ultimate battle experience" for a period I'm interested in already -- Waterloo, a whole D-Day beach, and so on. Second is trying out games and rules I'm not familiar with but might find interesting -- Full Thrust, 5150, CY6 and so on.

Player coordintion is an issue. A weekend doing a D-Day beach for 5 guys who made reservations and deposits six months earlier is one thing. But what about guys who want to show show up, stay and play some games they decide on when they get there? Conventions have both of these opportunities and I'd like the idea of a center that could accommodate that as well -- within reason, of course. You can't have every ruleset and miniatures and terrain for every conceivable conflict, but I'd recommend being able to accomodate guys who wake up Saturday morning and decide over breakfast to do a planetary assault rather than Busaco. And then decide over dinner to do Pickett's charge rather than Busaco the following day.

A good-natured personality and some gaming savvy by the proprietor (or other staff "ringers") would be essential too -- he or she ought to be someone who could take a hand in the game and be familiar with a lot of rulesets. A repertoire and stock could be added to over time -- of course you might need to advise customers that changes in plan mean changes in setup time (if you've set up for Busaco, the Battle of Britain might start an hour or so later than might otherwise have been the case due to the change in plan). Ringers are also helpful in case two of five guys cancel at the last minute -- the three can have a great experience and fill the other two with chagrin afterwards.

This would be really impractical, I'd think, unless you asked customers if they wanted a dedicated game week/end (Plan A) or a free-form game week/end (Plan B) and scheduled them accordingly. Some games, I'd bet, like a huge Kursk in 15mm, would be so elaborate and time consuming to set up that changing them to another huge game like Borodino would take the better part of a day, so the difference between Plan A and Plan B would be justified when explained to customers. (Since the customer is always right, you could offer an outrageous alternative setup fee if they insisted on switching from Kursk to Borodino -- just so long as the customer is choosing, complaints tend to disappear).

I'd also offer random battles from a repertoir of difficult or challenging tactical situations. One of my personally-depressing game experiences is spending a lot fo time setting up and taking down a huge famous battle, spending a day fighting the battle, and then having everyone (else) being pleased that it worked out just like it did in real life. Gag. I read an article in a gaming magazine about using some battles (like Antietam) as templates for Napoleonic, or Ancient, conflicts. I'd have that option as well – customers could choose general categories (meeting engagement, withdrawal under fire, siege, etc.) and the era you'd supply the setup and forces.

For more of what I'm getting at, I'd look at Safari companies' websites. They deal with the same issues -- elaborate 'game' conditions (licenses, travel, fees, equipment, quarry, weather) and customers who can be temperamental or who at least have spent what they think is a lot of money to use the service and expect a great time.

As to specific games, I'd collect calendars and schedules for the major conventions in the past few years and see what battles show up most frequently (and which ones don't) and which ones are featured as the "massive spectacles" in post-con reports.

Not really sure what kind of hospitality will work. People who want four Michelin Stars aren't going to gaming venues, and people who are going to gaming venues aren't looking for Michelin Stars. I think trying to do both is like selling air-conditioner/chainsaw combinations after a certain point. Sure, good food and a comfortable, clean, friendly, and spacious environment are a must. I'd focus on that and add the extras afterwards.

I'd think the option for an on-site American-style breakfast and a midday meal -- ordered before the stay begins from pre-selected menu (like a room-service menu) would be fine, as would a staff member willing to drive to pickup food. Endless non-alcoholic beverages (soda, iced and hot tea, coffee, water) would be good. The proprietor would be happy to arrange reservations and travel to offsite restaurants for dinner. I'm not personally excited about open bars and liquor during play, but as noted that's an expensive option for zoning, insurance, licensing reasons and you might want to put that on a list of something to do later.

Something just occurred to me.

What if everybody signs up for the ultimate weekend-long game, but then something goes wrong and one side utterly clobbers the other side within about 4 hours. Game over.

Then what?

Is there a Plan B?

Booze

Booze always works as a Plan B

Awesome idea Ed.

Table: 8x4 is fine for me.

As for battles:

Sekigahara,
Kawanakajima,
Gettysburg (day 1),
Tannenburg 1410,
Gravelotte St. Privat,
Grozny 1996,
Barnet 1471
Towton 1460,
Hastings,
Bosworth 1483,
Dunbar 1650,
Arnhem,
Lobovsitz.

Uesugi Kenshin,

The Battle of Sekigahara sounds interesting. The forces were close (81,000 – 88,000). Where would I be able to dig up what proportions of the forces were Samurai vs Ashigaru and Infantry vs Mounted? Where would I find the house colors of the opposing forces? Contact me directly on this:

EdDowgiallo@gmail.com

I also plan on eventually doing the first Battle of Tannenburg.

Klumpenproletariat,

In addition to the main games, filler games would be available on the game menu. It is highly unlikely using any rule set that I am familiar with to resolve something like Waterloo in 4 hours.

Ed