"Future Wargaming Center" Topic

I am in the early stages of starting a wargaming center in the United States along the lines of the Wargames Holiday Center in England. The center will be located in the vicinity of Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. I hope that many of you will participate a bit in the market research.

There are currently 4 wargaming centers that I am aware of in Europe. One of the features of all of these is a huge game table. The Wargames Holiday Center, for instance, is 15' x 28'. That seems a long way to reach, but it is actually a 3' x 28' table and 2 6' x 28' tables.

How large does a wargaming table have to be for you to be willing to pay to play a game on it? What battles would you like to play on such a table?

Thank you for participating,
Ed

A 6x12 (feet) has always been big enough for me,
since with the advent of 6mm and so forth you can
run really big battles on it.

Of course, I've enjoyed games on a 4x4 (feet) table
also.

Crosspost-tastic!

How large does a wargaming table have to be for you to be willing to pay to play a game on it?

Any size, what matters to me is that if I am paying, it needs to look a lot better than my own, regardless of size.
It could be 3 miles square but if it looks crappy I won't pay to play on it, heck, you couldn't even pay me if it looks bad.
Make me jealous of your quality.

Michael.

Piling on to AB, it's not about the size. It's about the setting and the amenities. I'm sure you're thinking of these things and are just focusing your question here on this one particular aspect.

So, to answer that question, it would need to be big enough to accomodate huge games that players commonly cannot host at home or at their LGS.

I'm thinking that your "value proposition" needs to be some combination of:

- A great physical space (including table size) for big, multi-day battles 3v3 to 5v5 players. It's got to be special enough for people to pay to travel and stay a weekend.

- As AB said, you need to offer table layouts and terrain that make for memorable games. Again, what most gamers cannot do for themselves at home. Can you offer me something that looks like this: link
or better still, THIS: link

- Setting, decor and amenities – Good physical space, natural light if possible, inspiring artwork on the walls. Comfortable chairs to sit in during or after the games, fireplace for telling of tall tales in the evening, space for small side games in the evening or parallel to the big stuff. Can you pre-stock a big fridge with adult beverages of my group's choice. I'd be disappointed if I had to drink Rolling Rock. In contrast, Yuengling on tap or some good Belgian or IPA would be nice.

- Location – Near Gettysburg, hmm. I'm in CA and I'd be interested if…nice place to sit outside during breaks. Places to take walks in between rolling dice and drinking. Someplace that has a B&B "getaway" feel to it. Good restaurants nearby. The places I've seen in Europe on line are in historic buildings. It's got to be cool or interesting enough to pay money to rent a group hangout for a weekend.

Look forward to hearing more on your endeavor.

I have a 6x15 ft table with a 3 ft modular table that can go on either end. I've used that 3 ft table probably 2 or 3 times in the last 29 years. If your having a wargame center my advice is having a table as long as possible since you want to attract folks by having big games. You can always shorten the table by not adding terrain and defining the edge.
I agree with Angel Bar regarding having beautiful terrain and figures. Without that what are you offering….

Depends upon the size of your room.

High quality terrain is a given.

What about specific battles? We will have 28mm miniatures for land and 1/1200 or 1/2400 for sea battles. Would you like to take a weekend to fight:

Trafalgar
Jutland
Fontenoy
Waterloo
Gettysburg

What would you like to see in the schedule for the first season?

Ed

I'd suggest a B&B type facility with the taste of an old world "club" (like the Reform Club).

With that beautiful but playable terrain and figures. Focus on a period (ACW?) and then branch into more as busines goes.

I think the secret is to have a well stocked and licensed bar within a few feet of the wargaming table, everything else follows from there.

Ed,

I would second Saber6's suggestion of "old world" "club" feeling.

To your question and S6's suggestion, why not target a handful of historic battles for which you could conceivably build top notch terrain and start there.

Certainly, refighting Gettysburg (or Antietam) right there near G-burg should be on the list. After that, I'd think you'd want to research (maybe through tournament organizers) what games and scales have the most enthusiasts in the US – especially on the East Coast/Mid Atlantic.

You're also going to have to commit to a scale – at least initially. Got to find the sweet spot. My off the cuff guess would be

Waterloo, Borodino or Austerlitz. (Duh)

Gettysburg or Antietam

Kursk (15mm)

Blenheim

Hastings

Teutoburgerwald Refight (Arminius vs Varus)

Mabye pick 3 for starters – Gettysburg, Waterloo and Kursk – and do them better than anyone could do for themselves.

Dilettante Gamer,

Are you saying that you would personally pay to play in Gettysburg, Waterloo, or Kursk?

Ed

I would pay to play Gettysburg/Antietem and Waterloo in 28mm. I wouldn't pay to play WW2, but I'm sure that I'm in the minority on that one as my perception is that WW2 is the most popular wargaming period today.

My guess is that the most popular periods would be
WW2
Napoleonics
Waterloo

in that order (sad to say, probably not as much interest in the SYW and AWI in the 18th century). Although I see that you list Fontenoy in the 18th century so that would catch my interest.

With big tables, you can run big historical games over several days. Build some high quality terrain pieces for the historical battles and they will come. Since you are near Gettysburg, you HAVE to offer that battle. Most Napoleonic fans want to game a large Waterloo battle at least once in their lives (I do).

I attended the original WHC in Scarborough when Mike Ingham was running the show. For week long events, he staged two large Napoleonic battles and one smaller skirmish beer and pretzels type of game for a change of pace. It worked very well.

Maybe you can run two large games and then have one day for a battlefield tour of Gettysburg.

All of the above. We all go for smaller scale figs (cost), so I would go for 25mm plus fig's, as we cannot do this ourselfs on a large size. I once saw a whole battle of "Waterloo" in 25mm, I will not forget it. One big thought! One must be able to get to the middle of the table.
Good luck & be safe,
Rory

I game in 54mm and can funcion well on a number of 5' or 6' wide tables.

At a center like this can a person bring their own games and pieces? If so, does that affect the cost? I'm new to this entire concept of a war game center.

- Location – Near Gettysburg, hmm. I'm in CA and I'd be interested if…nice place to sit outside during breaks. Places to take walks in between rolling dice and drinking. Someplace that has a B&B "getaway" feel to it. Good restaurants nearby. The places I've seen in Europe on line are in historic buildings. It's got to be cool or interesting enough to pay money to rent a group hangout for a weekend.

Speaking as another (Northern) CA gamer, seconded!

As for what sort of games? My own tastes are pretty eclectic from non-Warhamster sci-fi and fantasy to SCW, CCW, WW1, WW2, ancients, Pre-Columbian MesoAmerican warfare (I kid you not!), to even ACW if someone can provide me with a painted army of "Damned Yankees" to push around…

Regardless of subject, on such a large table one could stage all sorts of visually spectacular encounters, from epic sci-fi space fleet actions to mass tank battles. I would only add that IMHO forces provided should include some colorful subjects, such as 16th century samurai, Early War (WW2) French vs. Germans (Gembloux Gap battles, anyone?), 100 Years War, Achaemenid Persians vs. Macedonians, etc. for maximum visual impact.

Also, linking ACW games to the battlefield tours is IMHO an excellent suggestion; it may very well be the key to drawing a broader audience to your door…

Hope this helps!

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

Ed,
I would recommend contacting the guys who have run Jodie cons in the past. They have had very good luck putting together some great wargame weekends with very good attendance something along those lines. I am sure they would have some ideas that might be of use. As for size I would think at least able to handle a 6 foot by 12 foot game at least. And lodging could be contracted through local establishments at a group rate. Well worth considering without having to start from ground zero with a Bed and Breakfast type establishment.

VR
James Mattes

Ed,

Yes, I could easily imagine me and my gaming buddies travelling to G-Burg PA to play something cool for an extended weekend free from other responsibilities (wives, kids and chores) drink without worrying about driving home and not have to pick up models at the end of the day. We used to travel to WFB tournaments across the country but we're all out of that now.

I would love a well organized battle of Kursk/Prokhorovka using FoW. Biggest tank battle of all time? No brainer.

Waterloo with good models of La Haye Saint, Hougemont, and Plancenot I would also pay for.

I've never played ACW on the tabletop but my preference would be in 15mm given the scale of the battlefield and the range of the weapons involved. While I prefer 28mm miniatures, I want to deploy regiments in brigade.

As Alte Fritz added, an outing to the Gettysburg battlefield could be a huge "value add".

So, I would pay for those three. I think a huge opportunity is to provide organization and umpire services if needed. Do you envision providing the models or just the space and the tables?

The more I think on it, the more I see you have a real challenge with scale. My sense is there's a lot of Napoleonics in 15mm, but the current trend – judging from all the plastic kits – is towards 28mm.

6'7" x 12', try it, you'll like it.

Since I just bought land right outside of Gettyburg for my retirement in 2-3 years, this would be fantastic.

I agree with those who say the whole ambiance thing would be the key. Are you thinking large(ish) square footage near town or something right in town, I would think the base square footage available would dictate table, storage and amenity availability which in turn will be a huge part of cost.

I think that the table size is a great thing to consider, but as everyone pointed out, make sure that there are a LARGE number of things that a community group can't create.
Game size, table size, terrain quality, multiple tactical challenges are all definable features.

I can rent out a library room and push together a number of tables and converge the groups figures, but it doesnt ever feel well produced. Make sure you do that! The production value is certainly what sells. Monstrously large table size can be its own difficult thing.

Additionally and what might be the true holy grail, is to run different and simultaneous games. I love the occasional distraction at conventions of hearing and seeing a game that I wish I might have played. Free advertising! Concurrent Kursk and Leipzig games would bring in a huge crowd and give you lots of people to talk to. Or smaller battles, but run 2 or 3 simultaneously so that people could visit the other reality! Imagine seeing Shiloh fought with either the same or different rules and at the same time. You wouldnt be turning away people then!
Good luck,
Jeff

Good lighting, I have been to so many conventions that have really poor lighting. Replace the bulbs when they go out and don't try to scrimp by only using every other lamp.

Good solid tables in a variety of sizes. Clean restrooms and plenty of beverages. Good HAVC system. Someone needs to empty out the trash every once in a while. Plenty of good quailty chairs.

Although Gettysburg sounds like a perfect place. It really isn't unless you live near there. It needs to be centrally located. Kansas, Missouri or somewhere in the Midwest. Sometimes people in the Northeast forget their fellow hobbyist in the rest of the country.

I was going to do the same thing in 1994, open a wargame holiday center in Lexington, Kentucky. However, I met my wife before the project got too far down the road, had some zoning issues on the building location (hint, the locals don't like these things in residential areas) and also found a well paying full time job. All converged to steer me away from the idea. I have no regrets about not doing it, as I was able to do similar events on a one off basis.

Over the ensuing years though, I have run a lot of big one day game events where I would rent out a hall at some hotel, provide food and drink and stage huge games on two or three 6ft by 20ft tables, running parallel. You can put thousands of troops on such tables and still have considerable open flanks for maneuvering. Once you have done this, nothing else quite compares. The only downside is that this can really be exhausting work, even if all your terrain and figures are permanently located on site.

As I said in my earlier post, you have a good location – a destination for people to go to, one that they would likely want to visit regardless of whether or not there is wargaming involved.

You might want to get in touch with Jon Sutherland and pick his brains on topics related to how one gets started and how big a task it is to get the terrain boards and terrain pieces built, etc etc etc.

If you put it near Gettysburg, then forget it. If I go to Gettysburg. It may very well be the only time I go there so I am not going to spend it gaming. Yes Gettysburg is a destination trip not a wargaming trip.

Forgive my ignorance, but I'm trying to understand how it would work. You'd send out announcements that on X-day you're hosting a game of the battle of Blarfingham, using The Glory of Glory rules, and whoever wants to come, pays an admission fee and drives there? Is that the idea?

And I guess every game there would need to be big enough to handle a potentially unlimited number of gamers (the more the better, for obvious business reasons), and yet small enough to handle only a few gamers (in case not many people were interested)?

The facility would presumably be used by other people for other things, too, right? Because I can't imagine how something like that would ever be able to pay the rent.

I believe location is everything. I would not drive somewhere to end up nowhere. There has to be nice hotels or bed and breakfast's and restaurants that serve edible food. It also has to be a nice place to visit. An historic town would be nice.

Next, I agree the facility has to be "matey" with some nice drinks and facilities.

Lastly the terrain has to be large and spectacular. Something I can not do myself at home. It would have to be aimed at 28 mm wargaming.

John

Remember that you are planning a "holiday" centre, not a convention.

About 2002 the Cashtown Inn was up for sale. The price was right but I did not pull the trigger. Too bad it would have been perfect for an HMGS-East substation.

VR
James Mattes

Hmmmmm…..

Sounds like a nice concept. BUT… Have you looked into the 'business' side of this and all that entails?

What you have here is a business operation with all the necessary regulations and responsibilities. For example, someone mentioned providing 'adult beverages' (ie, booze and beer). Now you'll need a commercial liqueor license. Providing food? That gets you into being a food vendor (and all those regulations).

Where are you going to run this enterprise? If you think you can convert that building in the back of your lot, guess again; if the zoning doesn't allow commercial in your area, you're going to have to move it elsewhere.

And what if some clusmsy oaf trips and breaks a leg while at your game? Better have some form of liability insurance. And about that liablity insurance: If that same clumsy oaf drives off drunk after imbiding (and you provided the booze) and gets into an accident, then a whole different (and much more painful) set of troubles will come visiting….

Not saying it isn't a good idea (although, frankly, I can't see a viable business plan in any of it, but then, I'm a bit flinty eyed on these things), but you'd better be ready to run this as a full up business entity and not some extension of your personal gaming.

28' is fine, if you need it. Certain battles may lend themselves to breaking into parts or different table arrangements – u shaped etc. I would use fold up 2.5' tables (well made and even) that you could put your custom terrain boards on. For naval, probably a little easier to figure out.

I'm guessing a few days would run a few thousand. I couldn't justify that expense without taking my wife and having equal time with her or other things to do – hence the holiday center in Crete would be the only thing that would possibly work. Are there enough gamers willing to drop serious coin when all one seems to hear is carping about how much conventions (and things at conventions) cost? Why one would want to stay at anything other than a urine smelling, non-air-conditioned, mold infested, dank motel because it's about the gaming and doing it on the cheap, and not the amenities? Does your market research show that would make this a great experience and worthwhile for you- hosting people at your facility? Or is this to be like a dedicated 'hall' where you host large games and the lodging etc is up to others? If the latter, then what would make this different than a convention? If the former, Savannah Ga, Florida, Bahamas, Virgin Islands, North Carolina might be a 'cooler' alternative. And as above, quite the(realistic)and nightmare scenario.

you'd better be ready to run this as a full up business entity and not some extension of your personal gaming.

Actually, wouldn't that be the way to get around all the legal and fiduciary problems? To say that it's not a for-profit business at all, but simply a non-profit gathering of friends? Make it much more impromptu, and even move the location around. Then whoever owns the space you rent, has to deal with all of the above.

And then theres the rules you use. I once played in a very large game with a very long table with thousands of very colorful Napoleonic 28mm troops. Had a very bad experience because the rules were so complicated and I sat there most of the game doing nothing but waiting my turn.
Good rules are a must for something like this also.

Ed.
Might I suggest you provide what your fellow American's would play as they will be the bread and butter of your gamers I'd guess. I certainly think that you'd need to cover off on your basics for American wargaming which I'd hazzard to say were Revolutionary War (or Independence) and American Civil War. The war of 1812 might be popular also.

If I were a tourist and diverted myself to come to an American Wargames Centre, I'd like to see Little Big Horn, perhaps the Mexican War and the French and Indian Wars. If you are going to cover WWII might I suggest a deliberate concentration on your real war of national emergency – that against Japan?

If it's models at any time, naval is always interesting as is air combat.

Also, whilst the size of the table is important, a balanced force with room to move and the scenario is maybe even more important that numbers of figures.

That's it from me.

It sounds like a delicious but totally unrealistic idea for a wargame nirvana.

Have you considered how much all this would cost to prepare the site, buy and paint the thousands of figures? Building the scenery for the tables would take a lot of time and money, as would the tables themselves. It seems to me that the market is just not there, even in prosperous times.

What kind of return could you expect on your huge investment of time and money? Do you have enough capital to tide you over for the years before you start making money? I think you need to do a lot of research and planning. You ought to visit the existing war-game "centers." Is that elaborate one in Crete a working proposition, or the one in Kent? What were/are their problems? Where do they advertise? Do their owners consider their businesses successful?

Remember, you will have to share a tiny market with them (and the conventions). Do you know that there was a similar attempt to run a wargame holiday center in Gettysburg? I don't think it is still around.

I wish you a world of luck, and I would patronize your effort if it gets off the ground.

Why just one game at a time? Could you not have multiple games a different tables?

Someone mentioned non-profit. I work for a non-profit now and for most of my career, getting a non-profit status is not as easy as you think. I am not sure if this would qualify as a non-profit. You will have to deal with the laws in your state and the IRS. There are various kinds of non-profit status.

I would not even consider serving liquor. Nice idea but the liability involved is a huge issue. Now if you own the property and you are not charging any fees then that maybe akin to gaming at your house.

So I am a little unclear about this. Are you planning a business? Do you include hotel and meals? Are you wealthy and doing this for free, for the good of the hobby? I guess I am not familiar with these wargame centers, some explanation is in order for the uninitiated.

Conventions attract people for many reasons other than playing in game X. Many people come for shopping, for the flea market, for tournaments, etc.

That combination of opportunities is what makes the convention worth the time and expense of the trip. Without that, I doubt most people would be willing to drive more than a couple of hours, or devote the requisite time and money, particularly if they don't happen to be interested in whatever game(s) are on offer that weekend.

There are probably just not enough historical wargamers within a 2-hour radius of any spot except maybe New York City, to fill an event like this more than once or twice a year. Including fantasy and RPG would mean there would be enough people, but those people probably already have a favorite nearby locale in which to play.

In spite of the fact that there is a convention somewhere in the UK almost every weekend, there are 3 or 4 wargaming centers operating there. Some cater to the monster game crowd, others put on smaller games for small groups. At least in the UK, there does not appear to be a zero sum game between conventions and wargaming centers.

The Wargame Holiday Center has been a full time operation for 30+ years. They've been running 24 events per year for most of that time. They run full weeks every other week in the summer and weekends or extended weekends in non-summer months.

The operation in Crete only operates in the summer time. They run full week events most weeks in the summer.

The folks who attend typically spend 150 pounds in the UK for a weekend event or 150 euros for a weekend event in Europe. This does not include lodging, breakfast, or dinner. The Crete operation charges for lunch. Most other operations do not.

I will worry about the business plan. I'm looking for feedback on what people would like to see in such an operation in the United States.

Ed

In the fantasy area, we would not run RPG events for individual groups. That simply would not work with a wargaming center business model. Conceivably we could host RPG tournaments.

If there is enough demand, we would create the necessary terrain and run something like the Battle of Helms Deep or the Siege of Minas Tirith.

Ed

If you have the figures and terrain there doesn't seem to be much additional investment.
This could be a nice part time venture to make some extra bucks. To make a living at it… well…good luck!

Having thought about this idea several time I have my opinions like everyone else. While optimistic it could work there are pitfalls and many of them have already been pointed out. First there's logistics…Gettysburg is nice but how easy is it to get there unless you drive…our friends from CA would fly…people from the south might fly or take the train. You'll need some kind of arrangement with a hotel or inn of sufficient quality and good access to put up your guests.

Much would be determined by your schedule…for a long weekend, would you have everyone come in on Thursday evening and game on Friday and Saturday, leaving Sunday for return travel. Are you also thinking about a full week package? That would give you more flexibility but the expense would be that much more. Another option to a set battle would be to run a mini campaign that would guarentee three or four battles over the course of three days…that might be alot more work but it might be more interesting for the participants.

Most of the popular period have been mentioned…I'd add AWI to the list of WWII, Napoleonics and ACW.

Good luck.

WW2 is going to be the most popular. FOW are the most popular set though there are other options. Your rules have to be simple enough for players to pick up and play within a few minutes.

Some people would hate the Wargames Holiday experience – lack of choice/control over what/who you play. But for the more sociable types who can muck in and go with the flow it is great fun.

There are many gamers with real jobs and real lives who cannot play any other way too.

The fact there are several centres running and one has been running for decades means it can work.

I think you need people to run/design/manage the games who have the right skills and quialities. There are many pitfalls and potential problems to be overcome on a daily basis.

I wish the OP good luck. Being near a famous battle site can help with something to do on the way to/from. You also need something for wives and children to do too (some will not be left behind!).

The Creten place seems ideal as it's quite cheap and there is a beach/swimming pool and they keep evenings free. I could imaging a family holiday there being a reasonable compromise.

Another aspect you may wish to consider as mentioned above is to arrange something for the WAGs. Some guys would find it difficult to go on holiday without their other halfs.

If you can cater for these types then you will most likely be able to keep fully booked,if your wargaming side of things is done right.

Good luck on your venture .

If just generic "gaming" then location is important only in regards to access. But you are in Gettysburg and if you dont intend to leverage the location why bother.

Thursday, players arrive late afternoon and early evening. Arrange a nice get together/dinner at a good local establishment. Let players mingle and get to know each other.

Friday. After a nice breakfast hit some portion of the battlefield. Just as an example head over and do Little Round Top. You should be conversent enough to give a good lecture and if not hire someone. After a light lunch back to the center to game the same portion of the battle the players just saw. They get to walk the ground and then play the game. Dinner a bit on the late side, leave the players to enjoy some drinks and comraderie while you go back and set the table for the next day.

Saturday a repeat of Friday though with another aspect of the battle.

Sunday see your charges off.

I am sorry but if someone is selling location as part of the package I want to experience it. Running say a Kursk battle in Gettysburg is a bit of paradox to me.

I think a Gettysburg weekend is a must have option and Marc33…. sets out an excellent programme. This assumes that being 'near' Gettysburg actually means near enough to get to from in under an hour. If it takes 2+ hours to drive there then it's going to be tiresome.

But you want repeat custom so only have one option/theme is not really enoough.

WW2, ACW and parhaps branch out from there…

I'm not sure this would be as attractive in the us as the uk….just speaking in terms of real estate, I know of several players in town capable of running very large games on large table already……so I wonder if they would be willing to travel to do the same?

Dear Ed

Sigh!

You know you and I have talked about this before at length and I have tried to dissuede you from it. This is just not a viable business opportunity in the United States.

But, every generation has to find out for itself that the stove is hot, so go ahead. I'll be there to help you pick up the pieces when it all falls apart.

Listen to Klumpenproletariat and Dan beattie if you won't listen to me. However if you have somehow become filthy rich and simply want to throw money away, lay on MacDuff.

This is NOT England Ed! The wargames and the wargamers are not the same, nor is the wargame culture.

Hi Otto,

I'm committed to giving this a go. First season will start in summer 2015. We'll publish the 2015 schedule this summer to give people more than adequate time to plan. Right now, I'm trying to gather input for the first schedule.

You'll start to see me running convention games again this summer, to give people a taste of what's coming.

Ed

"This is NOT England Ed! The wargames and the wargamers are not the same, nor is the wargame culture."

Like most Americans who visit the UK for the first time, I was struck by how close-together everything is, and how small (by American standards) the average middle-class home is. I understood immediately why British gamers love their club games and small competition sets that only require a 4'-wide table, and so on, not to mention how so many game shows could proliferate.

There are probably about the same number of gamers in the UK, as in the USA, but that's in an area less than one-tenth the size, out of a population one-fifth the size.

It might be useful to survey some of the British gamers who frequent these holiday centres, in order to find out what they're willing to pay just to get there and stay there, and how long/far they're willing to travel, to do so.

Just to get you in the mood
americancivilwar.be/home_en.html

and a picture from last year

Excellent choice WillieB.

Klumpenproletariat,

I actually have spoken to some of the wargaming center owners in Europe. They were very helpful.

So, World War II, ACW, and Napoleonics. Anyone up for the 100th anniversary of WWI?

It will be the 200th anniversary of Waterloo, so that will be on the schedule. What other specific battles from the Napoleonic era?

ACW. We will definitely do the Battle of Gettysburg. I've heard a couple mentions of Antietam. What other specific battles would people like to see on the schedule?

World War II. Might not be able to do that in one week. ;-) It will be the 75th anniversary of France 1940. We don't have to stick to anniversaries though. Kursk has been mentioned. The eastern front is always popular, even though American troops were not involved. Should I put Kursk on the schedule? Stalingrad? Moscow? The Soviet summer offensive of 1942? The Winter War? Overlord? Monte Casino? Market Garden? Tarawa? Guadalcanal? There seems no shortage of choices.

Ed

Is there any plans to have a retail area as well? The hobby shop could be open even if the big events were not being run and people could rent space to run their own events.

I know adult beverages were mentioned multiple times, but laws in PA regarding license fees might make that impossible. Maybe a BYOB policy or something.

Good luck. I am next door and would like to stop by and see your progress.