"Cavalry pursuit pre-1525" Topic

I'm having trouble formulating cav pursuit rules. In both historical and fantasy rules I've played, there either are no pursuit rules, or victorious cav pursues a turn, does an about face, and crashes into the flanks or rear of the opposing army. Problem is, I've come across very few instances of that actually happening historically, usually it seems once the cavalry arm defeats its opponent, it is busy chasing them down or pillaging.
But modelling that makes for a poor, unpleasurable game. As my friend said tonight, "I'm being punished for winning, because I lose my unit in its pursuit of yours."
Any suggestions, or games you've played that handled this well?

But modelling that makes for a poor, unpleasurable game. As my friend said tonight, "I'm being punished for winning, because I lose my unit in its pursuit of yours."

I don't see why it should be "poor and unpleasurable". Think of it a bit like a piece exchange in chess. I take your knight, but then you take my knight. End result both of us has lost a knight. This is not ncessarily a bad thing, since it means that the threat from the enemy knight has been eliminated.

Historically it is what happened. Live with it.

The problem with cavalry pursuing off the table or into baggage train is that in almost every ruleset I've seen this is of no significance. Heck, most ruleset do not include rules for baggage train at all!
The way I see it, once the fleeing unit is off table, the pursuers would have 50/50 chance of reforming and going back into the fray or going straight for the baggage train, which in turn should severly weaken the other side's morale, or even force panic checks (or what have you) to avoid fleeing the field.
Also – what Margard said. Pursue takes some portion of your forces out of of control, that's why more disciplined armies had better chance of winning :)
At Grunwald (Tannenberg to some) A.D. 1410, a good percentage of Teutonic Knights engaged in pursuing some broken Lithuanian troops. They were effectively out of the battle long enough for it to be one of the factors in the Teuton demise! When they came back it was too late.

We have a rule for cavalry and undisciplined foot (ancients/medievals) that forces them to roll for control after a victorious melee. If they fail, they must pursue immediately straight ahead for a full turn's movement (which may make them crash into someone else), and then they spend a turn automatically out of control and unable to do anything except catch their breath. In most circumstances, this effectively takes them out of the battle. Of course, if they pass the test they are available for immediate use. There have also been one or two occasions in which a pursuing unit does make it back to a part of the field that matters. We find that this takes care of the issue quite neatly.

If the pursuing unit hits the edge of the world, it halts there. In its first available controlled move it may about face, but take no further action. This saves us the hassle of working out units that chase people off the table.

The good thing about these options is that they force a pursuing unit to take time to become useful again…

Bit latter than you were looking for but …
Peter Pig Regiment of Foote gives victory points if your horse are off table at the end of the game ransacking the baggage
And I think they have a modifier for the better disciplined parliamentarian late war horse to return & thus influence the game end
Perhaps you could use something similar?

It covers a period later than what you are looking at but we have a rule in my Warmaster ECW variant that if cavalry beats other cavalry they take a leadership test not to pursue. If they destroy the cavalry they take a leadership test on the leadership of the closest commander including any modifiers or they pursue them off the table, possibly not coming back on.

This is a great question and it reminds my way I got tired of playing Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

Something I like about Dux Britanniarum is that your cavalry can become "blown" – winded and disorganized, effectively putting them on the sidelines. So you need to think about when you throw them in. they're not the energizer bunny to launch charge after charge.

Once a pursuit starts you do lose control of your unit. Too bad, live with it. Only professional, regular units had the kind of command control to arrest a pursuit and turn the unit elsewhere. In rules, make the likelihood of regaining control of irregular units unlikely, and make the loss of control of professional units more unlikely….

The problem with cavalry pursuing off the table or into baggage train is that in almost every ruleset I've seen this is of no significance. Heck, most ruleset do not include rules for baggage train at all!

Well both DBM and FOG have rules for baggage and pursuits.

In FOG a unit must pursue when it wins a combat and routs the enemy unit (except foot who win vs mounted). Also, if the pursuing unit remains in contact with the routers it must continue to pursue unless it passes a test to stop pursuing.
FOG-R takes it further, in that some types of units (Gendarmes & Cavaliers) must pursue if they remain in contact and even if they lose contact must pursue unless they pass a test. This mean that if you win with one of these units they are unlikely to return to fight again.
Also taking the enemy baggage camp is significant (it counts towards the army break point), and I have played many games where taking the camp has made the led to an army breaking and has made the difference between winning and losing the game.

That's why I wrote "most", not all. Even 3rd edition WHFB had rules for baggage trains and pursuits leading to leaving the table ;)
Still, for majority of rulesets I've read this is not the case. Even HC and P&S from Warlord Games – otherwise great rulesets – don't even allow pursuits (units either fight on or are broken and removed altogether).

"Ah, yes, they are British sir, they all do that!" I don't recall where I heard that line (or something similar)in response to a regiment of British cavalry pursuing a broken enemy unit but it sums up the rest of the world's attitude towards British cavalry for most history since 1066.

Which is why intelligent use of reserves of cavalry is so important. You have to accept that you are very likely to loose a chunk of your horse to pursuit and looting and plan accordingly. I suggest a rule that allows pursuing horse a chance to cease pursuit based on their training and experience and leadership. Plus a chance to change target. However, they should be disorganised and tired from the original melee and the pursuit.

Your friend isn't being punished for winning, he has a reward his baggage is still intact and he has trampled an enemy unit under hoof! The victory conditions should reflect that.

That may work for after the Middle Ages, Elenderil, but your opening statement is factually incorrect for the medieval period.

Heavy horse was no more prone to ill-discipline in Middle Age 'Britain' than elsewhere. Indeed, commanders such as Richard I, Edward I and the Black Prince all demonstrated intelligent use of a mounted reserve.

Oman has a lot to answer for! lol