SECURITY MINISTER CRITTER | 06 Feb 2013 9:45 a.m. PST |
Now they want to trademark "space marine"! link Boorish churls. |
Coelacanth | 06 Feb 2013 10:05 a.m. PST |
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DMoody | 06 Feb 2013 10:05 a.m. PST |
I own games. I have a workshop. I think I need to send them a C&D on both terms. |
Meiczyslaw | 06 Feb 2013 10:07 a.m. PST |
Because it's not obvious from the title of the original post, this was brought up here, in case you want to track both conversations: TMP link This has gone viral, and GW's about to run into the Streisand Effect. |
doc mcb | 06 Feb 2013 10:17 a.m. PST |
Agree about the Streisand Effect. |
20thmaine | 06 Feb 2013 10:34 a.m. PST |
?? Streisand is a Space Marine ??? |
Caesar | 06 Feb 2013 10:42 a.m. PST |
What ever happened to their lawsuit against Chapter House? |
darthfozzywig | 06 Feb 2013 10:50 a.m. PST |
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Miniatureships | 06 Feb 2013 11:18 a.m. PST |
There maybe one point that many are missing. Take the case of Burger King. When they went to protect their name, they found that they could only stop future hamburger joints from using the name. There were ma and pa shops prior to that using the name, and they did not have to change because Burger King now has some legal right to the name. As long as the operation stayed in the family, they could retain the name of Burger King. GW maybe just trying to stop any further use of the name. It also appears, with the number of authors that have been using the name prior to GW, that it would be better for them all to join together in a class action lawsuit rather than take on GW one at a time. |
Meiczyslaw | 06 Feb 2013 11:34 a.m. PST |
Streisand is a Space Marine ??? "The Streisand effect is the phenomenon whereby an attempt to hide or remove a piece of information has the unintended consequence of publicizing the information more widely, usually facilitated by the Internet." From: link |
Parzival | 06 Feb 2013 11:41 a.m. PST |
It also appears, with the number of authors that have been using the name prior to GW, that it would be better for them all to join together in a class action lawsuit rather than take on GW one at a time. Yep. And Authors Guild is the organization to do it. authorsguild.org |
HardRock | 06 Feb 2013 11:52 a.m. PST |
They trademarked that over 15 years ago. As well as Terminator and others. TSR trademarked Nazi back in the 80's. Nothing new from stupid companies. |
Wolfprophet | 06 Feb 2013 12:01 p.m. PST |
What ever happened to their lawsuit against Chapter House? According to the court transcripts, they're losing badly. You know you're sunk when the judge flatly states word for word; "You can't copyright a pile of skulls without more to it." |
John the OFM | 06 Feb 2013 12:03 p.m. PST |
Nothing stupid about it, if your own pockets are deep enough to intimidate the little guy. Bad publicity? From their favorite consumers? Hardly. They would probably lose in court, but you have to be able to afford to fight them to fight it. They have law firms on retainer, and you may as well use them and get your monies' worth. If you lose the suit, you were paying the lawyers anyway. |
Roderick Robertson | 06 Feb 2013 12:24 p.m. PST |
TSR trademarked Nazi back in the 80's. No, Lucasfilms did, for the word in conjunction with an image, which was used in the Indiana Jones RPG. Neither company tried to Trademark the bare word – it was the "in conjuction with the image" that did it. As far as GW – they have deep pockets for them, and a lot of "prior use" against. |
Patrick R | 06 Feb 2013 12:41 p.m. PST |
Sigh, if another company was trying to survive by protecting its trademarks, you'd be alongside them on the barricades. But since it's the Evil Empire everything they do is by definition something evil designed to harm and hurt the little guy, right ? No, GW is a business, they make a nice wad of money selling Space Marine miniatures and related products. Space Marine is their trademark, they don't claim to have invented it, they don't claim sole ownership of the idea, but they will go after those that may profit from the use of the term especially if it overlaps with their business. They don't have to after those people at all, but if they didn't everyone and his cat could start using the term and GW would go out of business. And this would probably give some people a very priapistic case of Schadenfreude and there would be a lot of dancing in the streets, drinking in the saloons and necking in the parlours, but this is standard business practice. If you have an established trademark, the law expects you to actively defend it or the trademark becomes diluted, that's why companies like Adobe don't like people using the term "photoshop" to describe any form of digital alteration of images since it would dilute their trademark of the product. GW has established the Space Marine trademark, it's their money machine and they would like to keep it that way. The legal process depends on whose lawyers will convince the judge they have the better claim and that's how it goes in the real world. |
doc mcb | 06 Feb 2013 1:08 p.m. PST |
So explain how SPOTS THE SPACE MARINE as a book interferes in the slightest with their miniatures money machine? |
Brian Smaller | 06 Feb 2013 1:39 p.m. PST |
I have Fantasy Games Unlimited's "Space Marines" scifi wargame rules for use in their Space Opera setting. That was published in the 70s. |
Patrick R | 06 Feb 2013 1:53 p.m. PST |
Well Doc, the theory is that a customer could be mistaken into buying the book believing it is a GW-made or endorsed product, thus depriving GW of income. Do it enough times and you start to lose money, CF fake Gucci bags or Rolexes. It may be a shoddy product, or something that would cause the customer to decline from purchasing further GW products, thus hurting sales. That's the general idea behind such cases. I'm by no means saying it's a fair game, but that's how legal matters go. Fairness has nothing to do with it. |
Patrick R | 06 Feb 2013 2:34 p.m. PST |
Let me add one more thing. The Space Marine trademark is very weak since it's just common words. It's very likely that GW is very aggressively trying to get people in court in the hope of a ruling in their favour, which makes IP cases like a lot easier for GW since they would have a precedent to use as their big gun. |
ttauri | 06 Feb 2013 3:40 p.m. PST |
Well, they got Twentieth Century Fox and Kenner to cave in 1993. Check the bottom of the toy packaging for Aliens/Predator and the Space marines from that movie. link |
The G Dog | 06 Feb 2013 5:47 p.m. PST |
Anyone remember "Princess Ryan's Space Marines"? |
CPBelt | 06 Feb 2013 6:11 p.m. PST |
So, just call your minis Ultraspace Marines or Megaspace Marines? |
Brian Smaller | 06 Feb 2013 6:23 p.m. PST |
@Cpbelt – this is beyond making miniatures. They are claiming trademark on terms used in fiction for the last seventy years or more.
?? Streisand is a Space Marine ???
What do think was the model for the old beaky nose marines from the 80s and 90s? |
doc mcb | 06 Feb 2013 6:59 p.m. PST |
Right. I don't see how protecting their toys lets them interfere with the title of a work of fiction. |
Dynaman8789 | 06 Feb 2013 7:17 p.m. PST |
> Check the bottom of the toy packaging for Aliens/Predator and the Space marines from that movie. Interesting, in the movie they were called "The Colonial Marine Corps", I always thought it was due to Space Marines sounding so dorky. |
McKinstry | 06 Feb 2013 7:43 p.m. PST |
John Glenn was a Marine and he's actually been to space. Who wants to tell him he's not a Space Marine? |
Mako11 | 06 Feb 2013 8:59 p.m. PST |
Hmmmm, of course this begs the question as to whether they'll try to trademark "Finecrap" too, to keep others from using that as well
.. I remember the FGU usage as well, and even have evidence of it around here somewhere. |
Yourbitterpill | 06 Feb 2013 9:32 p.m. PST |
GW has established the Space Marine trademark, it's their money machine and they would like to keep it that way. It is nowhere near as cut-and-dry as you claim. Their previously "established" IP is VERY domain-specific and is only applicable to tabletop/miniature gaming and NOT to literary works of fiction. As has already been posted, there are several works of literary fiction using the term "Space Marine", notably the 1936 Amazing Stories serial posted above. I don't disagree that GW can attempt to claim "space marine(s)" as their IP in literature due to the nature of copyright law. However, if they do enter into a legal battle over this, they will have a VERY hard time convincing a judge that they are sole rights holders 75+ years after the first usage was published. Additionally, GW's move to have Amazon take the book down was both under-handed and really stupid from a publicity angle. And Amazon aren't coming out of this looking good either, since they were under no legal obligation to honor GW's demands. |
Parzival | 07 Feb 2013 7:12 a.m. PST |
Their previously "established" IP is VERY domain-specific and is only applicable to tabletop/miniature gaming and NOT to literary works of fiction.As has already been posted, there are several works of literary fiction using the term "Space Marine", notably the 1936 Amazing Stories serial posted above. I don't disagree that GW can attempt to claim "space marine(s)" as their IP in literature due to the nature of copyright law. However, if they do enter into a legal battle over this, they will have a VERY hard time convincing a judge that they are sole rights holders 75+ years after the first usage was published. Exactly. As a game involving miniatures, GW has and had standing to make the trademark. But over works of literature, they clearly do not. The term was in common usage in science fiction literature for decades before GW ever picked it up— the current situation would be no different than attempting to trademark the word "robot" or "hyperspace." You might be able to do that for a game, product or service (and such attempts would be iffy), but for a works of literature or film? Nope. I'm not a GW-hater, and have defended their rights to their IP many times here on TMP. But this is outside the bounds of IP. If they were going after a game company or a figure maker, I'd have to acknowledge, "yep, they made the trademark." Even FGU's prior usage is weak, as they did not trademark the term and never contested GW's original application. (Of course, I believe GW was technically supposed to have contacted FGU regarding the trademark submission, if GW was aware that FGU had prior usage of the term for a game product, which I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have, since both companies got started around the same time and advertised in the same publications and to the same market
but that's a different legal issue.) But in any case, that's a trademark for a game, which is a different trademark category than works of fiction. It appears that word of this is getting around the SF writer community (Neil Gaiman has apparently expressed support for the author), and that's not good for GW. I'm not sure how this will play out. I'd lay odds on GW winning out simply because they're the giant in the issue— but then, the author might turn out to be their David. |
sma1941 | 07 Feb 2013 7:32 a.m. PST |
Hey GW – "Space Marine" HA – I just said Space Marine! |
altfritz | 07 Feb 2013 8:42 a.m. PST |
So is there a legal defense fund concerned citizens can donate to? A Kickstarter? |
SECURITY MINISTER CRITTER | 07 Feb 2013 8:51 a.m. PST |
No, GW is a business, they make a nice wad of money selling Space Marine miniatures and related products Then they can trademark Space Marine Miniatures About 25 years ago the lady that started Renaissance fairs tried to copywrite Renaissance. She was pretty much laughed at, and told she could trademark her show's name, but not much else. Wyatt the Odd may remember mor of this than I do. |
SECURITY MINISTER CRITTER | 07 Feb 2013 9:01 a.m. PST |
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Parzival | 07 Feb 2013 11:15 a.m. PST |
This story is going viral, and that is "not good" for Games Workshop. The more this news gets out, the more likely that Hogarth will pick up the funding and support she needs. If she's able to take this thing into a US court, GW's entire trademark could be set aside on the grounds of being too generic. Oops. In attempting to protect its mark too broadly, GW may have done themselves far more harm than good. That's all a big "if," of course. In any case, it's horrible PR. Not that GW has been very good on the PR front in recent years. P.S. If you google the phrase "Hogarth space marine," one thing that pops up is a photo of Hogarth, who has the whole "innocent waif" look going for her. Image-wise, it's as if GW was just photographed kicking a puppy.
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Liberators | 07 Feb 2013 1:34 p.m. PST |
Yep, if "Spots the Space Marine" had been titled "Warhammer 40k the Space Marine", then fine
but it's not. It's "Spots the Space Marine". Someone asked about a legal defense fund. On her blog she wrote: Finally, several of you have asked about the Spots the Space Marine charity. I have always donated a portion of my profits from the sale of the book (in all editions, serial, e-book and print) to The Wounded Warrior Project, a charity recommended to me by the servicemen and servicewomen who also helped me with my many questions while writing. I'm not sure when Spots the Space Marine will be available again, but until I figure it out, I commend this charity to you. There would be no space marines without the real thing. She also has posted an update that's too long to quote. The long and short of it, the Electronic Frontier Foundation is looking at taking up her case and people are contacting Games Workshop directly. I suggest we all do the same. After all, we need to let them know we're their core customers and we aren't confused, in theory, by the words space marine and won't be denying them business based on the fact that her book has nothing even closely resembling a Warhammer character, race, typeface or logo and they're doing FAR more damage to their brand than any self-publishing stay at home artist/mother. mcahogarth.org |
Parzival | 07 Feb 2013 2:03 p.m. PST |
I wonder what GW would do if someone published a book titled John Glenn: Space Marine. That'd pretty much be the end of that trademark claim. :-P to GW. |
Patrick R | 08 Feb 2013 4:47 a.m. PST |
Parzival, GW's trademark only covers board games and computer games. They have a Space Marine trademark for publications (not fiction or novels) through Black Library. If somebody wrote the John Glenn: Space Marine book, GW might still try to send a C&D and the publisher would throw it in the garbage can and it would thrown out of court. But it would have little impact on GW's own trademark, it would be defined through a precedent not to include works of non-fiction, but the games and minis would still be safe. |