huevans011 | 02 Feb 2013 9:21 p.m. PST |
All the drawings and reenactment group photos I have seen show knee length coat tails for pre 1812 French line infantry. But the new Perry's seem to have coat tails just to the top of the thigh like light infantry. Anyone else think they've goofed badly? link
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George Krashos | 03 Feb 2013 12:46 a.m. PST |
They do look short for line infantry. The lights had slightly shorter tails. |
trailape | 03 Feb 2013 12:59 a.m. PST |
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Artilleryman | 03 Feb 2013 2:33 a.m. PST |
Coat tails did shorten a bit from 1805 onwards so I think theses are great. |
6sided | 03 Feb 2013 3:10 a.m. PST |
If you think that is goofing badly I think you might need some more stress in your life! Jazz Http://6sided.net |
von Winterfeldt | 03 Feb 2013 4:47 a.m. PST |
Despite being a fan of the Perrys they look like being produced on the quick side, while the grenadiers look great – the fusiliers with the hat fall a bit behind the usual high quality turn out of the Perrys. |
huevans011 | 03 Feb 2013 11:40 a.m. PST |
I appreciate you gents' opinions. But for me, this is a major fault. The tails must be at least a foot too short and it affects the whole appearance of the figure. If it was just a matter of 3 or 4 inches, it wouldn't bother me either. But there's a huge difference between knee length and bum length. |
JCBJCB | 03 Feb 2013 12:09 p.m. PST |
No, it doesn't look right. |
Garde de Paris | 03 Feb 2013 12:16 p.m. PST |
Does anyone have the pre-1812 Voltigeurs/Grenadiers skirmishing? I hope I am posting the link to the Perry site to show these. They certainly appear to have coat tails reaching down the back of the leg to where the hight gaiters would end, if they did not have overalls. They look correct for 1810 on, but not for 1807. Great looking figures! The 3eme de ligne sent a battalion of elites into Spain to guard communications between Vitoria and France, and these could look great in the role – 4 or 6 companies. GdeP |
deadhead | 03 Feb 2013 1:36 p.m. PST |
I dunno. If I had a quid for every time I have heard that complaint. It is just a matter of 3-4 inches I know, but they say it does matter. It is very cold in the North East of England mind you. The Perrys simply cannot get it wrong
Occasionally maybe
..but, even then, only with mounted figures, who regress to Hobbits |
Mserafin | 03 Feb 2013 3:14 p.m. PST |
Pity there are no photos of the backs of these guys (hint, hint) so that those of us who don't have any could have a look. |
Perry Miniatures | 03 Feb 2013 4:02 p.m. PST |
I don't normally post here but I thought I'd better allay your concerns. The angle of the photos does make them look short but it's just that they are flying up at the back, which means you can't see a lot from the front. I'll be showing the new French this week on TMP and I'll be sure to show a rear view. Remember the coat tails were shortened from the over- long 1790's fashion (reaching to the back of the knee and longer) which lasted to around 1801. I would post a picture here
.. but I haven't done it before, and I'll probably mess it up! Alan Perry |
huevans011 | 03 Feb 2013 4:06 p.m. PST |
thanks, Alan. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Let me stress that I think they're lovely figures and my concern re the coat length arose when I was admiring them and deciding whether to order a few. |
von Winterfeldt | 04 Feb 2013 2:51 p.m. PST |
an original coat of about 1809 or later, not that short
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huevans011 | 05 Feb 2013 7:11 a.m. PST |
Yes, my point. Even at that late date, they were close to knee-length. And all the art I've seen corroborates this. |
Marc the plastics fan | 05 Feb 2013 1:27 p.m. PST |
Von – nice, but without legs in it, the picture is hard to gauge for length. |
von Winterfeldt | 05 Feb 2013 2:33 p.m. PST |
It is easy look at the length of the arms – then figure out, knee length – quite likely. |
Garde de Paris | 05 Feb 2013 8:28 p.m. PST |
I recall one of the Rousselot plates of the Old Guard grenadiers showing coats in profile at the bottom left. (My stuff ispacked away.) The left-most figure has coat tails that were formed by pinning one point to the other, with the tails rather sloppy in red. The second figure had the tails looking as if they were sewn to the uniform with a neat triangle at the bottom. They were about 2 inches shorter than the left figure. Then they had a third coat with no triangle at the bottom. The turnbacks were sewn to the coat, very neat and tidy, and about 2 inches shorter than the second coat. The full-formed soldiers above these coats seemed to have tails that ended at about the top of the long white gaiters. I also recall that Rousselot did some of these for dragoons, with the same first and second coats, but the third was the Bardin regulation with short tails, and lapels to the waist. GdeP |
von Winterfeldt | 05 Feb 2013 11:30 p.m. PST |
Rousselot gives very good guidelines, but for actual assesment I prefer (in case I can get it) contemporary prints as well as original coats. |
Runicus Fasticus | 06 Feb 2013 12:00 a.m. PST |
Just something to concider,,,,,,,,,,,these are 28mm figures
so any differance in length would be maybe 1 to 2 mm 's
and from 4feet across a table or more ,,someone is going to start screaming foul,,,,,,if they are so stuffed,,,show them the door "and let it hit them on the way out" these are excellant Perry figs and some folks are just picking to pick.If these figures offend you,,,,make something better
.I will stick with the Perry figs. |
von Winterfeldt | 06 Feb 2013 7:29 a.m. PST |
I agree that Perrys figures are great, due to the Perrys I started to collect 28 mm – still one should be able to discuss a matter of detail without qualms. As to the length of the coat tails, look at the contemporary Suhr brother manuscript, knee length or longer in 1807 / 1808. |
Mserafin | 06 Feb 2013 9:56 a.m. PST |
The Brigade Games French seem to have long coat tails (down to the knees, from what I can tell from the pictures). link As they are sculpted by Paul Hicks and cast by Brigade, lack of quality won't be an issue. On the downside*, they only make them with the bicorne, so only useful for the early campaigns. * a really big downside, if you ask me. |
huevans011 | 06 Feb 2013 11:35 a.m. PST |
I agree that Perrys figures are great, due to the Perrys I started to collect 28 mm – still one should be able to discuss a matter of detail without qualms. I think the reason we're posting in this thread is that we all like Perry figures. OTOH, if a major figure type – i.e. French line infantry – is not accurate, then that should be raised and discussed and brought to the manufacturer's attention. If the difference really was just 1 or 2mm, then no one would be bothered about it. But the evidence seems to be that the coat-tails were knee-length and the figures have coats to the top of the thigh, it would appear. That's pretty major. |
Mserafin | 06 Feb 2013 11:53 a.m. PST |
On the other hand, the Perry's cite some reliable sources for these figures (Faber du Faur, the Frieburg Manuscript), so it's not like they just made them up from memory (which can be faulty*). I suspect the problem is the assumption that all French infantry coats were the same. Given the large number that must have been produced over a long time by a lot of different manufacturers, I very much doubt they were all identical. So while "to the knees" may have been the designated standard, that doesn't mean there weren't other variants floating around. People are expecting a degree of standardization that just didn't exist at the time. Mark * – not that FdF and the Winkler were immune from the reconstructive memory problem – did their subjects pose for them, or did they make up their sketches from memory? |
deadhead | 06 Feb 2013 12:22 p.m. PST |
I only got back into collecting 28 mm figs because of the Perrys' work. The twin lads were collecting the LOTR stuff and I thought I have never seen anything like that since Hinchcliffe in the late 70s, only these were much better. I look forward to getting some Calpe figs and, even more, Westfalia mins, but the Perrys take some beating. Come on, let's be honest, these tails are a bit short. GMB flags are brilliant but slightly
.a lot
too big. Perrys' output can range from Col Heymes
sublime..to the Cuirassier officer at rest, with arms folded
the toad, their worst ever casting, we still laugh at him face down in real Waterloo mud mixed with PVA glue
but we must be allowed to criticise. I wonder if either of them really get offended? I have found them incredible at replying to contact e mails. Amazing that Alan P posted here. |
Marc the plastics fan | 06 Feb 2013 1:47 p.m. PST |
Mserifin – not sure that logic holds water – if we start going down the "oh, everything was different in those days so anything goes" then there will be problems. I am with the constructive guys here – it is not being narky, more about trying to establish whether those figures are, in fact, sculpted correctly. |
von Winterfeldt | 06 Feb 2013 2:11 p.m. PST |
I agree that 1813 the coat tails of the French old style tunics were shorter, as Alan observed and this is confirmed by the Freiburger Bilderhandschrift, but in 1805 – 1809 the coat tails were still very long. The Perrys fusiliers with hat – should show a uniform style of about 1805 to 1807. I attach two photos from the Suhr brothers (very fitting for the Perry brothers) showing uniforms of about 1807 / 08, please note the very long coat tails. By the way I would love to see a French soldier with the cooking pot as a miniature figure.
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Mserafin | 06 Feb 2013 2:53 p.m. PST |
Mserifin – not sure that logic holds water – if we start going down the "oh, everything was different in those days so anything goes" then there will be problems. But pretty much everything WAS different in those days – We're talking pre-Industrial Revolution here (at least in France), and a nation that had been at war for about 15 years in 1807. You don't think corners were cut? If Monsieur LeBeau makes the tails on his infantry coats too short (through error, lack of material or trying to cheat the system), do you really think they would have been sent back to him for correction by the army? "Sorry, mon Empereur, but the 87th Ligne cannot accompany you on campaign, since the tails of our coats are too short." Really? Do you think every unit was dressed exactly as stated in regulation? French cuirassier coats are supposed to be blue. But the 13th had brown. They're documented as having done so, because as the only cuirassier unit in Spain, they would have stood out. But minor variations in the masses of line infantry would have just been swallowed up, unless someone (like FdF) made a picture of them (perferably while they were posing, or conveniently passed out drunk). Have you ever looked at pictures of German soldiers in WW2, especially the later part? In most cases there's a lot of variation between the uniforms and equipment of Franz and his friend Johan (e.g., Franz has short boots and gaiters, Johan's wearing Jackboots, one has a camo smock and the other doesn't, or they both do but of different patterns, etc.). And that's with industrial processes that make the uniformity so beloved of gamers much easier to achieve. In a war, you use anything you can get that's even close to what it's supposed to be, because a) you need it NOW, and b) it's probably going to be destroyed next week anyhow. I think one of the reasons the Napoleonic boards have such a poor reputation on TMP is that some of the participants cling to the entirely mistaken belief that there is a "right" answer for every little detail of the uniforms, in a period where it it would have been very difficult to make everything "just so" during peace time, let alone during a war. Uniformity was (and still is) an ideal that was very rarely achieved in practice. The Old Guard on duty in the Tuileries – probably as close to uniform as you can get. The Old Guard after marching a few hundred miles in Russian – not so much. I don't have access to the Perry's sources on these, so I can't say if they show short tails or the regulation long ones, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if they showed coat tails shorter than was regulation. I don't think the Perry's are infallible, they may very well be wrong here, but I think it's well within the realm of posssibility that they aren't. If they have, in fact, given the figures shortened tails, which Mr. Alan Perry seems to deny above. I eagerly await Alan's posting of pictures here on TMP, if he can manage it :). Mark |
Edwulf | 06 Feb 2013 3:58 p.m. PST |
Some of those old drawings have exaggerated details and colours. |
von Winterfeldt | 07 Feb 2013 12:11 a.m. PST |
some yes – some no – the Suhr brothers are very good in showing how soldiers then looked like. I agree to a certain extend to Mserafin, variation was of course possible, but there was a general trend as well, and that was knee length coat tails for example in 1805 to 1809 |
Delbruck | 07 Feb 2013 4:55 p.m. PST |
These figures seem to show coat tails reaching close to the knee, and certainly longer than on the bardin, I do have another question though. Why are the fuslier bicornes worn front to back, and the grenadiers mostly side to side? |
von Winterfeldt | 07 Feb 2013 11:44 p.m. PST |
the hat – it was not a bicorne, could only be worn front to back along with a shouldered musket – the brim was 17 cm wide at the front and sides and 18 cm at the back. |
pas de charge | 08 Feb 2013 12:55 a.m. PST |
The coat tails do look rather short for the period that they are supposed to represent. Existing coats and contemporary representations show them as being considerably longer. |
Marc the plastics fan | 08 Feb 2013 3:12 a.m. PST |
Sorry Mserfifin, I appreciate that it can get a bit that way on the Nap boards. But I just think, as vW is showing, that the early figures/uniforms had a very distinctive look about them. I know the perry's are nice (see my comments on their latest news flash retreat from Moscow), but I just do not think it is right to defend their figures with an unsubstantiated "oh, war, material shortages etc" sort of approach. I have my French troops in several different uniforms, Bardin for the later wars, long coats for my 1805-7 games. And they do look different, and I enjoy that difference. It means my early French are in the looser tailored styles, so "fit" alongside the Prussians in their bicornes etc. So although these look nice perry figures, I remain unconvinced that shorter coat tails are entirely appropriate for them. Sorry, and I appreciate your view is different, which I can appreciate. |
Mserafin | 08 Feb 2013 10:01 a.m. PST |
I know the perry's are nice (see my comments on their latest news flash retreat from Moscow), but I just do not think it is right to defend their figures with an unsubstantiated "oh, war, material shortages etc" sort of approach. I don't thin you got my point, or I made it poorly. According to the Perry's, they are basing these figures off drawings by eye-witnesses. If those guys put short tails on the coats, it's because it's what they saw. What they saw may have been an anomaly, the odd unit that got non-standard coats. My point was that it's possible such anomalies existed in the first place, and were more probably more common than many Nap players would like to think. Having now seen more photos of the figures, I can understand why some are questioning what the Perry's did. On the marching figures, the tails do indeed appear to be shorter than what I would expect. Curiously, the skirmishers seem to have longer tails, more like what the uniform books show, so I'm even more confused than before. |
von Winterfeldt | 08 Feb 2013 1:44 p.m. PST |
@Mserafin Seemingly I did make my point poorly as well, the coat tails the Perrys show are more the 1812 / 1813 style – see Freiburg mauscript as in Napoleons Last Grande Armée – however I provided some earlier coats either as original or contemporary prints, they show a different style. Infantry with hats (Napoleonic) – were about worn till 1807 ergo knee length coat tails. |
Duke of Plaza Toro | 08 Feb 2013 10:14 p.m. PST |
For the Revolutionary Wars the line infantry coat has tails to the back of the knee – the Eureka Miniatures range correctly shows them like this and there is a wealth of evidence to support the interpretation. Although, it should also be remembered (as someone said a while back) that the LIGHT infantry had began to deliberately shorten their coat tails as early as the mid 1790's (aside from their officers whose coat tails were supposed to remained long). This is how things were in 1801 as Alan Perry says, but as far as I'm aware the tails continued to be cut long well into the Imperial period. However, I seem to recall reading somewhere that as the last vestiges of the 1806 white uniform (which still had long tails) were replaced, the final issues of the pre-Bardin coat (c.1809-12) did have shorter tails – driven by a nod to changing military fashion and increased economy to reduce the amount of cloth required for each coat. Unfortunately I regret I can't for the life of me recall where I read it or how reliable the source was! DPT |
von Winterfeldt | 09 Feb 2013 12:46 a.m. PST |
For the final issues of pre Bardin – 1811 – 1812 – I am agreeing. As for light infantry they had the short coat tails already in the French revolution, or I should say some of them had others hadn't but this is an entire different story. There is a mega wealth of evidence for the Napoleonic Wars, compared to the French Revolutionary Wars. Look at Guy Dempsey's Napoleon's Soldiers (uniforms of about 1808) Suhr, Otto, Zimmermann, Hahlo, Lüneburger, Weiland give us good ideas, here how Adam sees the French at Smolensk 1812, shorter coat tails than in 1807 but still not that short
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huevans011 | 09 Feb 2013 6:29 a.m. PST |
Interesting pic, Von W. Some of those soldiers actually wear the cut of habite portrayed in the Perry sculpts. There IS some variation and other soldiers are wearing knee-length coats. |
von Winterfeldt | 09 Feb 2013 6:32 a.m. PST |
remember that is 1812 – still I am suprised at least to see at some still the knee length of 1808 |
huevans011 | 09 Feb 2013 7:26 a.m. PST |
Von W, do you have any other illustrations of the shortening of the habite longue between 1808 and 1812? |
huevans011 | 09 Feb 2013 8:36 a.m. PST |
It's also interesting to see the comparison with legere and their very short coat-tails. |
von Winterfeldt | 10 Feb 2013 12:50 a.m. PST |
Look for prints of Adam about the 1812 campaign – recently a must have book about his work of the Leuchtenberg Zyklus in French was published |
Marc the plastics fan | 10 Feb 2013 6:13 a.m. PST |
Have the Perrys linked to their eye witness sources? I know from a variety of prints I see reproduced in books that are at best near contemporary, often show a later style of uniform – the artist obviously "saw" troops outside his window but then "back dated" them to the time he depicted in his painting etc. |
von Winterfeldt | 10 Feb 2013 7:54 a.m. PST |
Yes the eye witness saw them but painted them in the uniform when he did the actual painting, Lejeune is a very good example showing already in a battle painting of a battle which happened in 1811 the Bardin uniform of 1813. For that reason picture manuscrips are so good there they were usually painted within the time frame. |
essayons7 | 22 Feb 2013 9:57 a.m. PST |
Hell, I'm going to use them alongside my Eureka's anyway!!! |