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"Defiance Games thinking of doing a Kickstarter..." Topic


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Paragonicnova Inactive Member28 Jan 2013 12:55 p.m. PST

From some facebook posting it seems that Defiance is looking into doing a kickstarter

Good idea or no? Would you support it?

Would this possibly be another form of them taking your money and waiting 3-6 months after the projected date of delivery to give you your product? Heck if more organized people like McVey and Steve Jackson have problems with KS, who knows what DG might run into

Could this potentially turn this company's misfortune around?

wminsing Inactive Member28 Jan 2013 1:00 p.m. PST

I don't like to hate on companies, but based on the history of Defiance Games this Kickstarter would be a definite no-go for me. A Kickstarter should be used to help put together a project that's feasible but a little more than the company can handle at the moment. It should not be used as as an attempt to pull the company's rear end out of the fire.

-Will

Avicenna79928 Jan 2013 1:05 p.m. PST

I'm still waiting for my marine pre-order "Gunny" mini which was to be shipped later.

Dynaman878928 Jan 2013 1:06 p.m. PST

I don't go with kickstarters as a matter of principle, I don't want to risk my principle on them…

shelldrake28 Jan 2013 1:08 p.m. PST

Avicenna – I will swap you the 'Gunny' figure I have that I didn't want for the missing bug bodies that they didn't send to me.

The only kickstarter I want from Defiance Games is a kick up the arse so that they send me the missing parts so I can make my bugs.

morrigan Inactive Member28 Jan 2013 1:10 p.m. PST

This sounds like a troll, and it's working………

Paragonicnova Inactive Member28 Jan 2013 1:19 p.m. PST

This sounds like a troll, and it's working………

Talking about me? Well I may have had some odd posts in the past but this is straight from the belly of the beast

link

McWong7328 Jan 2013 1:36 p.m. PST

Kickstarter gives Defiance a whole new range of "who to blame" options for when the whole thing falls in a heap. Shame KS isn't Chinese, then they have the reason for failure built in.

28mm Fanatik28 Jan 2013 1:58 p.m. PST

Kickstarters are not for me regardless of the company starting them. I'm a gamer, not an investor. And kickstarters are simply promises without any guarantee that the product will ever see the light of day.

It's moot anyway as far as I'm concerned. Even if the miniatures are released, I may not buy them, much less products that will only be released if the company meets its minimum fundraising goal.

Wolfprophet Inactive Member28 Jan 2013 2:02 p.m. PST

When they asked about it right on their Facebook page I've never seen so much hate spewed in a matter of seconds…. I refrained from it as much as I wanted to put in my two cents of pure rage at their incompetence.

Little Big Wars Inactive Member28 Jan 2013 2:23 p.m. PST

I think they've already proved themselves a poor investment opportunity… no thanks…

Raptoruk369 Supporting Member of TMP28 Jan 2013 2:29 p.m. PST

After being let down by Defiance and then they tried to cover there tracks by renaming a long forum thread complaining about them to another but positive title
I dont trust them and would strongly advise anyone who reads this thread not to take the chance.

pogoame28 Jan 2013 2:35 p.m. PST

<quote>
I don't like to hate on companies, but based on the history of Defiance Games this Kickstarter would be a definite no-go for me. A Kickstarter should be used to help put together a project that's feasible but a little more than the company can handle at the moment. It should not be used as as an attempt to pull the company's rear end out of the fire.

-Will
</quote>

as a former Kickstarter supporter (only it was called pre-order and the company was Wargames Factory by the same people that now run Defiance games) i can only say the following :

STAY AWAY FROM THESE PEOPLE, THEY GRAB YOUR MONEY AND SEND NOTHING IN RETURN

Alex

Chef Lackey Rich Fezian Inactive Member28 Jan 2013 2:48 p.m. PST

I can't see myself backing this one myself, but I'm pretty restrained about plunging on Kickstarters. Only gone for three so far, and of those only one has actually delivered to date, with one of the others not due till summer and the other three months past the scheduled release with no sign of shipping in sight.

Personal logo SBminisguy Supporting Member of TMP28 Jan 2013 2:54 p.m. PST

I guess my experience is atypical?? I got my USMC starter box on time, absent Gunny. I bugged them through a few emails, they were apologetic, and then I got my Gunny plus some of the Panzergrenadiers and some worms as an apology.

richarDISNEY Inactive Member28 Jan 2013 3:16 p.m. PST

Same here SBminisguy.
Never had an issue. Granted, I only bought two boxes of the marines..
beer

Unrepentant Werewolf 2 Inactive Member28 Jan 2013 4:11 p.m. PST

I bugged them about gunny, heard nothing. Took the risk and pre-ordered the germans. Still nothing on either, despite promises that they have been sent again as they couldn't find any record of my order. IT WILL BE A COLD DAY IN HELL BEFORE THEY GET ANYTHING FROM ME AGAIN!

Cadian 7th Inactive Member28 Jan 2013 5:31 p.m. PST

Marines, bugs, and germans all arrived without any issues, they even sent some marines to me while I was deployed. Individual results may vary.

nudspinespittle Supporting Member of TMP28 Jan 2013 5:57 p.m. PST

I never got my Gunny either.

ming31 Inactive Member28 Jan 2013 6:23 p.m. PST

Last news stoey on the Website was dated nov 19 …not promising .

sstinnett Inactive Member28 Jan 2013 6:24 p.m. PST

I would not support a kickstarter with this company. I did get my 5 boxes of Marines but it took several months through a third party store. I had to ask for my Gunny figure but got just one for my efforts. I have still not seen my order of 5 boxes of German Grenadiers and most likely never will. If I ever buy product from this company again it will be when I see it in my local store. The concept was good but the exicution failed and failed again!

Lion in the Stars28 Jan 2013 6:42 p.m. PST

I can't see myself backing this one myself, but I'm pretty restrained about plunging on Kickstarters. Only gone for three so far, and of those only one has actually delivered to date, with one of the others not due till summer and the other three months past the scheduled release with no sign of shipping in sight.

As a side note, it seems like the really big kickstarters are the victims of their own success. AFAIK, the only 'big' kickstarter that has shipped close to on time has been Sedition Wars. Lord only knows when OGRE and Relic Knights will ship.

But I would absolutely NOT spend money on any project associated with Defiance Games until the product is in my FLGS.

JLA10528 Jan 2013 8:46 p.m. PST

Never got my Gunny, either. I DID get my bugs, at least.

John Leahy28 Jan 2013 9:25 p.m. PST

Reaper shipped on schedule or before. That was on I would have liked to have been in on.

Thanks,

John

Lampyridae Inactive Member28 Jan 2013 10:29 p.m. PST

I thought Defiance Games was having its normal share of teething problems, but this issue of missing Gunnies, missing *orders* just does not inspire confidence. I would definitely not support a KS with them, let alone pre-order.

BigNickR Inactive Member29 Jan 2013 4:21 a.m. PST

like I said early in that thread on facebook… Right now they have a reputation for not being to deliver on promises.

They need to fill ALL outstanding orders and make a public statement that they have done so before kickstarting, or expect some SERIOUS negative backlash for KS'ing…

Because of their reputation, I'm not buying anything that i can't hold in my hands, whether from a retail shelf or a vendor at a con… but it SHOULD be noted that I -AM- willing to buy the product… It just needs to BE a product at the time, not some pictures and a promise that its "on the way"

Whitwort Stormbringer Inactive Member29 Jan 2013 4:38 a.m. PST

I'm pretty much on the same page as their facebook commentators – before attempting a kickstarter they need to a) fulfill all of their back-orders (or refund any that they can't fill for whatever reason), and b) show that they can get a product out on time without fuss.

Also what's the deal with Hudson's Bugs? I thought I had read something about them being too labor-intensive and difficult to cast to be considered profitable, so they were being redesigned. If that's the case, shouldn't they pull them from the store? Relaunching the bugs, and getting it right, would probably go a long ways in generating the good will that they would need to pull off a kickstarter campaign.

At the end of the day, their minis are a pretty low priority on my potential "to buy" list, though, so I don't really have much of a vested interest in what they do.

Dentatus Fezian29 Jan 2013 5:09 a.m. PST

Bwaaaa- haaaa! Hahahahahaha! *cough – cough* *sniff* (wipes tears from eyes)

You have to laugh. It's such an obvious attempt to squeeze yet more funds to stave off the hard consequences of poor business decisions and questionable character.

GhostofRebecaBlack29 Jan 2013 6:02 a.m. PST

Deliver all the remaining preorders first and try to improve your reputation. That's my advice. Got my marines pretty fast but the PZGs… still no sign and no reply to my mail.

Sad to say it, but unless they take care of the customers who are waiting I belive this is just a way to get "free cash".

Princeps Inactive Member29 Jan 2013 6:08 a.m. PST

Sounds perfect for their business model from their perspective, less so for the punters.

CmdrKiley Inactive Member29 Jan 2013 8:31 a.m. PST

Somebody got a Gunny?

shelldrake, please post pics!!!!

Caesar Inactive Member29 Jan 2013 8:48 a.m. PST

There are some people who never learn and will throw their money away at a scheme like this.

A means to get money that has no obligation to fulfill their end of the bargain? I'm surprised Tony hasn't tried this route, already.

GhostofRebecaBlack29 Jan 2013 1:20 p.m. PST

Ohhh… Gary told me my order will ship tomorrow. I wonder what the PZGs will look like. Anyhow I still wouldn't risk my money on a KS.

shelldrake29 Jan 2013 2:32 p.m. PST

Yes, I have a gunny, and I didn't even pre-order anything to get it:

picture

I also received 2 samples of the Germans.

Will swap both for 30 x Hudson Bug bodies so I can make my bugs.

Timothy V Inactive Member29 Jan 2013 4:30 p.m. PST

I've put in on 1 Kick Starter & it has been good for me, but overall I do not like Kick Starters as the people putting in assume all the risk. If Kick Starters were like any other contract I would be more willing to invest in them. I don't mind some delays in receipt of product but if the Kick starter doesn't make its goal I should be reimbursed my investment. As I live on a tight budget like most people this is not unreasonable to me. I much prefer just purchasing what I need even if it runs a little more expensive. I do regret not going in on a couple of Kick starters for miniatures I will end up Buying anyway. Overall I don't have the money to risk.

Zephyr129 Jan 2013 7:59 p.m. PST

I'm KS'd out, so won't be getting in on this one. I also made my own Gunny conversion from the set of Marines. Matched it pretty close (except for the binocs) and gave him a DI hat instead. Much more intimidating…. ;-)

Unrepentant Werewolf at work Inactive Member30 Jan 2013 2:55 a.m. PST

Gary told me it finally shipped on the 18th, still waiting for it to show…

ordinarybass30 Jan 2013 11:05 a.m. PST

I'm with those who say DS needs to get their current house in order before doing a KS.

I'm still holding out hope for the Hardsuits, but I have exactly no interest in participating in a pre-order or Kickstarter. It's not worth the bother to save a few bucks if there's no real guarantee when you'll get your stuff. Further, based on the bugs and certain aspects of the Germans, there seems to be no guarantee of quality either.

With companies like this I'll delay any buying decision until it's been produced, distributed, independently reviewed and available in my FLGS or 20% off at warstore.

Lion in the Stars30 Jan 2013 12:00 p.m. PST

I don't mind some delays in receipt of product but if the Kick starter doesn't make its goal I should be reimbursed my investment.
Have you missed a detail here? Kickstarter doesn't charge your card unless the minimum is reached.

I've been on a couple KS that have failed horribly, and gotten the email that said, 'since ______ has failed to reach it's funding goal, your card was not charged.'

It's a different story when the project reaches it's funding goal. Established companies usually have a good estimate of how much the project will really cost (and how much time it will take to finish), so those tend to be delivered fairly close to the posted dates. It's the wildly successful projects that have problems. Too much stuff to fit into the original box, so they have to make a whole new game box. The new box is so big that it needs air-holes so that you can actually open it, etc.

CMoN has been really good about keeping people informed. Hero Games has been really good. Heck, even Evil Stevie has been good about keeping people informed about progress.

But Defiance Games is not good about keeping people informed of events. They seem to pull ETAs out of their backsides, instead of giving real estimates that include allowances for trouble.

Bluntly, I would say that Defiance Games never sent someone to a Supply Chain Management class. Ever. It's a bad sign when a college student knows more about time estimation than a practicing businessman.

Insomniac30 Jan 2013 12:22 p.m. PST

If this is gen and Defiance starts a kickstarter, I hope everyone sees it for what it is (another Tony farce) and avoids it like the plague.

I hate to see people taken for mugs and get fed up hearing about stuff not delivered, shoddy products and missed deadlines.

Timothy V Inactive Member30 Jan 2013 7:25 p.m. PST

Thanks Lion in the Stars I didn't Know that About Kick Starters. As I said I've Only been involved with 1 Kick Starter & it has been a good experience, but I don't know much about Kick Starters in General. I really do appreciate you letting me know. Thanks Again

Cergorach Inactive Member31 Jan 2013 1:24 p.m. PST

Defiance Games has problems.

First their handling of WGF while they were still in charge, not the best performance. Second the whole mess with Chinese takeover, they might or might not have been bend over, but the whole circus after that didn't inspire confidence. Third, their current lack of meeting their obligations as Defiance Games, by releasing absurdly late, not once, but time and again. Not to mention poor quality (control) on the resin/plastics.

Honestly, Defiance was interesting when they were doing the whole plastic sprue thing with their first release, I had high hopes for them. But I would never have preordered with them due their prior history, I would wait for those releases to become available in the EU (UK probably).

I love or hate KS projects, I went for the Reaper Bones and the Dreamforge KS for ~$450 each, and went with Shadowrun Returns, Planetary Annihilation, and Project Eternity for the minimum that would get me a digital copy of the game.

The funny thing is that the Dreamforge KS is using the same company that does the WGF plastics in China. And although it's rather late (a couple of months), we've had regular updates on the state of design and production. I trusted in the guy that has been running Dreamforge for the last eight years or so and I can forgive the delays, the designs are awesome. The Reaper Bones Kickstarter is still on schedule.

Although I didn't participate in the Ogre KS (because they went with cardboard minis instead of proper plastics), I can kind of understand why there are so many delays. The guy wanted to jump on a trampoline to see how high he could get and was launched at the moon.

I would have loved to support more KS, but due to lack of fund I couldn't/can't. If only this level of KS projects were around a few years ago, a lot of money would have gone to KS projects instead of GW…

Honestly, even if Defiance Games ever did get it's act together I doubt they would have many backers, Tony's reputation is shot and requires far more effort then a few months of timely deliveries of product that should have happened in the first place.

shelldrake31 Jan 2013 1:28 p.m. PST

Defiance have been in touch with me and told me the missing bug parts have been posted off today.

I will keep every one updated on if/when they arrive.

Splod89 Inactive Member31 Jan 2013 6:17 p.m. PST

Note that the sub-beast Mierce, the bastard offspring of Maelstrom has managed to make a pretty penny despite the company's thieving origins.

Lion in the Stars31 Jan 2013 7:45 p.m. PST

Defiance have been in touch with me and told me the missing bug parts have been posted off today.

I will keep every one updated on if/when they arrive.


I would have a very simple response to that: "Tracking numbers or it didn't happen."

I'm ok with project delays, stuff happens. Tell me that a typhoon flooded out the factory and it's going to take a month or so to clean everything up, and keep me posted when things change, we're good. But tell me that stuff has been shipped with no tracking numbers when we're using FedEx, I call shenanigans.

And Defiance Games has had shenanigans called on their information-handling practices a long, long time ago.

Cergorach Inactive Member01 Feb 2013 4:05 a.m. PST


Note that the sub-beast Mierce, the bastard offspring of Maelstrom has managed to make a pretty penny despite the company's thieving origins.

Simply put, a lot of folks don't know about Maelstrom games and their shenanigans with Mierce. I also think that if that connection wasn't there, this KS would have done a lot better then it's doing now…

alien BLOODY HELL surfer Inactive Member01 Feb 2013 5:41 a.m. PST

no one in their right mind would give any money upfront to anything Tony has a hand in, he's already proved he cannot run a company properly – twice now. (and that's being polite)

martbing Inactive Member12 Mar 2013 7:09 p.m. PST

any one would like to sell me a bug or marine or gunny or space krat --- i will cast more for my self
martbing2005@yahoo.com

Personal logo Fergal Sponsoring Member of TMP12 Mar 2013 7:38 p.m. PST

Wow…

The Real Chris Inactive Member15 Mar 2013 9:04 a.m. PST

Yes, no matter what they promise on the KS page I wouldn't be convinced. Mantic has done kickstarter pretty well, but they seem to be using it as a pre-order system for stuff they have already done.

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