"Rules for club members" Topic

Our club has been using "unofficial" rules that basically say you can't be a jerk during games or the others won't play with you.

We don't have any "requirements" for member participation other than RSVP if you're coming so the GM's know how many to plan for. Some members just seem to come to play and never collect figures or run games themselves. This leads to eventual GM burnout by the guys who run the games and then resentments.

So, I'm interested in gathering some suggestions from other clubs on their club rules and the rationalle behind some of their more strict requirements.

Thanks.

I'm smiling TinMan. You know than only 20% of any group does most of the work. The remaining 80% "conspire" to "ride in the wagon" as long and as far as possible.

Don

Yes well… the 80-20 rule is getting pretty old.
It would be nice to move it up a notch or two.

I like to have 6-8 guys in games I run. But it would be nice if some of those guys also ran some games so that I could play without having to do all the prep work.

It also keeps thing more interesting overall if more guys are working on stuff.

Other than no physical confrontations, no stealing from the clubs or membership, respect the venues and don't trash them…Neither of the clubs I attend have lots of rules and nor do they want them.

The more board and role playing oriented club has a calender on their website of games run. GMs post up games on the calenders that they want to run and how many players they can accomodate in them. Players then sign up for whatever game they want to play.

The wargames club I attend doesn't even do that. Players sort out games they want to play on club nights a few days in advance and then they turn up to play them. They don't even use the website to advertise them.

People who run games have their own right to refuse someone joining in if they think they're disruptive (ie, abusive above normal joking around, de-railing games and ruining them for others) but no set rules for gaming.

As for running games: I don't get too hard on those who don't GM. Some don't like the responsibility or lack ideas outside of their own character or army and some are on the introverted side and don't like being the centre of attention, which is what you get when you run games. With wargaming clubs, I think borrowing a force to play in a game where you don't have figures for that period is fine but you should have figures that you can provide for another game in another period that you're willing to lend to a player for a game.

Our only rule is that we only put painted figures on the table. So if you wanna game with us, you either paint up your stuff (we're not picky, just make an effort) or you borrow a painted army.

The reasoning behind this is simple. I maintain our club's blog, and our after-action reports have garnered a lot of fans because our terrain and miniatures are always properly assembled and painted. They're not pro caliber, of course, but the overall effect is something we can be proud of. Hence, the rule about painted minis. :)

I take that as a given.
Nothing goes on the table unpainted.

My questions really revolve around how we can get the "deadbeats" to pony up and run, or at least assist in running, games.

Definition:
Deadbeat in this context, is a guy who's only contribution to the club is to show up and play in games.

You might just try asking the group, "can someone run a game next month?" You might get a positive response you can then build on. I'm skeptical though. I've been gaming for more than 30 years now, and I've always been the primary driver in every group but one or two. It's difficult to find a group of like-minded people you really like, and who are equally as willing to spend a bunch of extra time setting up games. If you've found the first, count yourself lucky. When you get burnt out, move to boardgames or low prep games like Wings of War for awhile til you get your mojo back. Maybe try to get people interested in skirmish historicals- SAGA or Muskets & Tomahawks. 20-30 figs for each player. They could even buy them painted- GAJO.
M

At the Guildford club we don't have any rules at all.

Games are arranged on the yahoo group during the week or at the pub after a meeting. normally someone offers a game and someone else will agree to play.

The whole GM thing for wargames seems to be mostly in the USA – perhaps because of the way conventions are run? In the UK people just turn up and play prearranged games with theirs or others figures.

Mike

Some suggestions to get ppl more involved:

* In large games, make an arrangement that when someone brings a unit of their own to take part in the battle, that unit receives some bonus modifiers during the game. It might provide a low enough threshold for ppl to buy and paint one single unit, and wet their appetites. This might work better in some periods or settings.

* Organize a painting workshop and show to those who don't have figures it's really not that difficult to get a unit finished.

* Provide some figures of your own for others to paint. Face it, you have tons of stuff that will never get painted, so draw in the help of others.

* As a first step, provide an overview of available figures for a given period, together with the main scenery items, and ask someone else to design a game or scenario. In my experience, people want to set up a game, but they feel they can't do it because they don;t know what forces are available.

Anyway, generally speaking, you have to HELP people to make that first step, and reward them for the effort. That's much more constructive than coming up with rules and punishments for those that do not contribute.

But even then, there are always people who, because of their nature, are followers, and feel reluctance to take up a leading role. That's not only the case in wargaming clubs, but also in any other hobby club, volunteer's organization, or even at work. It's just human nature.

"a guy who's only contribution to the club is to show up and play in games."

That is a valuable contribution. You need players. Sure in an ideal world everybody would take turns and put on equally enjoyable games, but that is never going to happen. Some people are lazy, some have less time than other, some lack the confidence and skills to do so. They may have found they have put on games for people that have had flaws and then recieved criticism which has put them off trying again.
In our group (not a club thank god) the host puts on the majority of games. Another member puts on the next most and I'm probably third. I probably used to be second, but shiftwork and personal life complications have reduced my input. Out of the others probably only two put on the occasional game and then a couple just play. I wouldn't have said any of this was laziness though.
If the people who put on the games don't accept this and then stop putting on games the group would just die out. Then rather than umpire the majority and play a minority of games they would end up playing none. It's just a reflection of society and it's make up.
As to how to get others to put on games. Encouragement, coaching, normal life skills. Help them design and set it up. If they put on a game that's rubbish, make the best of it. Try and have fun. Don't make jibes and give loads of criticicm. One piece of constructive criticism is enough.

I agree; *requiring* people to do things isn't likely to work. Encouraging them may, and yes, players are needed and valuable even if they never paint a figure or run a game. Hopefully someday they will. It is their hobby, too, and for some of the reasons BW cited above, they may just not be into certain aspects.

OK, you guys are missing the point.

"The Club" has enough players. More than enough.
"The Club" needs more members to step up and participate at a level that is more than just showing up and letting others do the work.

I disagree that they are contributing by just showing up.
Its NOT their hobby. They're just gamers. They are freeloading off MY hobby.

I also don't feel that the working members need to be babysitters or life-coaches to them. They are supposedly adults. I don't give a rat's patootie about reflecting the make-up of the society at large.

One of our ideas is to require that a member run, or assist in running, at least one game per year. If its a requirement of membership there will be no surprises and the the more regular GM's will get breaks occasionally. And, once a year is a pretty easy requirement to meet.

@Black Hat
We tried running games where each player would bring their own unit(s). Unfortunately, the same people contribute and the same people don't.

So, I'm interested in gathering some suggestions from other clubs on their club rules and the rationalle behind some of their more strict requirements.

You don't seem that interested in what other clubs do if your replies are anything to go by.

People play wargames for their own reasons, if you can't accept that other people have reasons for doing things, why do you expect people to accept what you want?

Well, I've never been a member of a club that has rules for getting people to run games so I can't offer any first hand suggestions.

However, what about buddying up those who haven't run a game before with someone who has? Like I said before, there's no one reason why someone can't or won't run a game but with some encoragement and help from those more experienced they could end up doing so.

What you don't want is to call them out for being deadbeats or ruining your hobby because you might drive them away. You might think "good riddance" but your club might also get a bad reputation for being elitist and unfriendly and that full club you once had might struggle to get members down the line.

It has never been a problem I've noticed at our club.

The only people who I can think of over the years who didn't have any playable armies dropped out after a while – I guess it was because they weren't interested enough.

Everyone else who has come along has at least one army or a couple that they can play with.

We do seem to attract "returners" though – those people who'd kids have grown up a bit and now they are getting back into wargaming, rather than brand new gamers. Though we have had a couple of those who now have quite large collections…

Mike

I disagree that we are 'missing the point'. We just have different points of view. I assumed you were after other peoples opinions beacuse you'd posted asking a question. Encouragement will help. Rules and bullying won't. It will however reduce your membership as they go elsewhere to more accepting clubs. I guess this will get rid of these freeloaders you seem to detest so much, so a good result for you?

@Black Hat
I was asking about what other clubs did.
Your club's "attrition" approach seems to have merit but I'm wondering how long such an approach would really take and whether burn-out would set in for the GM's in the meantime. Going by some of our member's comments I think we're pretty close to that burn-out.

@badwargamer
You did miss the point.
Encouragement and handholding can only be done for so long until it becomes obvious that some people will always want a free ride. We've already been down that route. That's why I'm looking for other ideas from clubs that have adopted rules about such things.

Since you've already said that you're not in a club, your opinion, uninformed as it may be, that we should just accept the status quo, is not helpful and "misses the point".

If someone just wants to game, they can go play at a shop. Or find a friend who's willing to do all the heavy lifting.

If someone joins a club, its entirely appropriate that the club expects them to contribute.

Our club has no rules along those lines. You want to show up and play, no problem. Almost all of us have hosted games at one time or another though. Our group is not very large being under 10 routine players though.

ok. I get it. I know understand the point. We aren't a club as some clubs end up being run by people who like to tell everyone else what to do. With a group of friends we all put in what we are capable and happy to do and have fun, so we choose not to be a club. So I'm not uninformed, like I said I just have a different opinion to you. That is allowed you know…maybe not in your club, I suppose.

Anyway, as you have failed at encouraging them I can make some suggestions that might seem more up your street. These aren't ones that we have used but have been popular in the past with other oppressive groups. If you don't like the carrot then I guess you like the stick.
Blackmail
Kidnap
Torture
Threats of violence
Electric shock therapy
Brainwashing
Extermination of the lesser beings (aka freeloaders)

These may not seem very serious but you don't really seem interested in any opinion that involves treating these people with respect. Encouragement and support are far more effective than bullying. It may not be something you want to do, but as other have suggested there may be others in your club that are good at that and can help support them.
It's a hobby and meant to be fun. If you try to make them do things they aren't comfortable they will just leave, or gang up on you and get rid of you. Anyway good luck with your cleansing of those lazy freeloaders.

Maybe that was a bit sarcastic. Might I suggest that if you have 'burnout' you stop putting on games yourself for a bit, take a back seat and let others come to the fore? Alternatively you coudl start a different club where you can play 'your hobby' your way and where entry is only on the conditon that everyone contributes evenly?
Then you won't have to change the people you don;t think will change. A fresh start and all that!

We at the R.D.G.C. have a few rules…

1) If you roll a "1", you MUST take a shot (of whatever liquid you are drinking…)

2) No cheating or lying (unless you really don't like your opponent or you have money riding on the game).

3) If you say you are going to show up, you BETTER show up.

4) No complaining on what games are being played, Pt.1. After all, some there did a lot of work to set up the game, so if you don't like the game being played, don't show up.

5) No complaining on what games are being played, Pt.2. If you want to play different rules, YOU get the game going.

6) Suggestions of games are always welcome, but don't get bent if nobody wants to run/paint/buy it. See rule #5.

7) If you are in NO shape to drive home, stay, or call a friend/Sig Other/cab.

There are a few others, but that's the main ones.

We got one guy who really is not a gamer at all, but he shows up and rolls dice/moves lead just for the laughs we have at the table. Oh, and for the beers I bring…

The lack of 'anybody else running/buying games' uses to bug me, but for some reason nowadays, it doesn't.

@badwargamer
You're absolutely right. I don't know what I was thinking. Thanks for the sage advice. You're a life saver.

@richardDISNEY
Your rules are very good. I can't argue against any of them.
Does rule #1 require two shots if you roll snake-eyes?

The lack of 'anybody else running/buying games' uses to bug me, but for some reason nowadays, it doesn't.

Believe it or not, it actually bugs me less than a few of the other members. But I volunteered to solicit some ideas and here we are.

@Nick H
I think your buddy system is a good idea.
Its a variation on what some of the others have said about helping them along but a bit better in that it doesn't completely let the non-producers off the hook. And I think its already occurred to some extent in a couple cases.

Maybe combining that with the "GM-or-assist at least once a year" rule might work to foster some more involvement.
No one is calling anyone out at this point so it could work.

To use Ogdenlulimus's example;
"You can ride in the wagon for a little while and we'll show you how to keep it rolling, but eventually you have to get out and help push".

@TheTinDictator

There always is a point where, after all possible encouragement you give people to come up with some games themselves, some club members still don't do it.

Two possibilities:
- They made honest efforts, but maybe they're just lacking the talent, the time or feel insecure vs. a number of guys who every week put up the most magnificent and challenging games. But perhaps these guys are fun to have as club members. Then so what? Just leave it the way it is, and acknowledge that not everyone has the same level of commitment.
- Or, some clubmembers may flat out refuse to contribute. Those are harder to deal with, but probably no rules or agreements will change their behaviour. The only solution in this case is to ask them to leave the club.

BTW, how large is your club and what's the ratio between contributors and 'freeloaders' ?

Reason I'm asking is, if you have roughly the same number of 'contributors' as average number of players needed per game, the problem can solve itself, right? Just form a small subgroup within your club with the contributors only (taking turns to set up games), and let the 'freeloaders' play boardgames or whatever.

But some of these actions depend very heavily on the social dynamics within your club. Are members long-time friends as well? What's the age distribution? Is it an 'open' or 'closed' club etc. That's why it's so difficult to give good solid advice.

The club has roughly 30 members.
About 10 are regular GM's. The rest seem to be hangers-on with little or no interest in collecting, painting, or running games.
Efforts to engage them more have met with negligible results which caused some of the more active members to begin grumbling.

Age distribution is mid 20's through mid 60's.
Yes, the members who are only interested in playing are the younger ones. For the most part.

Forming subgroups was discussed and seems to be an option. But it also could be a forrunner to the destruction of the club because I'm sure resentments will emerge when someone doesn't get to join group A or group B.

We were hoping for a more "friendly" way of telling some members that they should help out more.

You could be right and it will eventually sort itself out. Club members come and go. But, in the meantime we risk losing valuable members to splinter groups because they feel like they are babysitting or being taken for granted by other members.

So, I'm trying to find a mild way of getting others involved (the once a year rule) without bringing the argument to a head and creating a bunch of animosity.

You will only drive people away if start requiring more direct participation from your members. Maybe you feel that you are in a position to comfortably do that with out harming the club but it will only be a short term fix. You say it's the younger members who for the most part just show up which implies that the older members are the "doers" in the club. But it's the younger members who are your club's future not us old farts. There have been some good suggestions such as the buddy system mentioned here but have you asked yourself why some gamers are not supplying their own figures or taking a more active role? Our hobby isn't cheap, especially when you look at some of the massed armies some folks have collected over the years. I can also tell you as someone who has almost no skill as a painter, it's rather intimidating to put your mediocre looking figures out on the table next to somebody's collection of masterfully painted miniatures.

In my opinion, rather then criticizing the players who just show up, be happy that they do (unless they behave like muppets) and find ways to make it easier for them to begin taking more of a role. I like the buddy system idea that someone pointed out with the player assisting a more involved gamer in setting up and running a game. The suggestion for painting tutorials is also very good. If you have some figures sitting in your lead pile that are surplus to requirements bring those along and let them try their hand a painting those to perhaps give them some inspiration. Also, does your club mainly play larger games with several units such as any of the Napoleonic, ECW or ACW battalion level and above games? Why not try some small skirmish games where a player only needs to field a handful of figures to take part such as a Wild West game or gladiators or even an aerial dog fight game such as Check your six? The player could have a fun game with little investment thereby making easier for them to take the plunge. Instead of making rules that exclude, I think you will be far better off in the long run if you find more creative ways to include.

In closing, you should really consider yourself lucky that you have players that want to show up. Too many clubs out there are struggling to attract players as their older membership roll their last dice.