billthecat | 09 Jan 2013 12:39 p.m. PST |
The recent post on 'Tunnels and Trolls' on the 'Fantasy RPG' board got me thinking about dice mechanics in RPGs
D6s in particular. I am aware of the WEG 'D6' system, as well as T&T, and classic Traveller, but are there any/other systems that rely soley on classic six-sided dice
can D6s really provide the range to create a system with variety and depth? T&T was awful, IMHO, and WEG lacks a certain level of detail, especially in the magic and combat departments, Traveller is nice, but the limited bell curve of 2d6 tends to simplify things. Could D6s be used for a game with the mechanical depth and variety of say the ICE systems or old TSR D&D? I used to have a copy of the LOTR RPG, but got rid of it some time ago: How did the 'CODA' system work? I like the idea of a D6 based game system, but can it work and how? Thanks for any input. |
Meiczyslaw | 09 Jan 2013 12:49 p.m. PST |
GURPS and FUDGE. (Though FUDGE is technically a D3 system, with special dice.) GURPS works off of 3D6, which still produces a bell curve, but the peak is two numbers wide (10 and 11) instead of one (7) in a 2D6 system. This gives you a 50-50 chance with a target number of 10, and you can still hide the freaky events at the far ends of the bell. GURPS' weakness, for me, is in different parts of the mechanics -- the math behind the 3D6 system works just fine. It's also worth mentioning that the splat books for GURPS are among the best. Even though I don't play the game, I still have a number of the setting books for other games. |
Meiczyslaw | 09 Jan 2013 12:53 p.m. PST |
As for FUDGE
the basic idea is that your six-sided dice have three evenly-divided results: positive, negative, and neutral. You roll 4dF ("F" standing for FUDGE die) and produce bell curve results from -4 to +4. FUDGE is actually a very generic system on its own, and GMs (and companies) add specificity on top of it. For example, the Dresden Files game uses version 3 of FUDGE, which is called FATE. |
Who asked this joker | 09 Jan 2013 1:05 p.m. PST |
The Fantasy Trip Advanced Melee and Wizard Shadow Run (at least some early versions) Super System could easily be an RPG and is all D6s I think the Ganesha Games RPG (Tales of
) is all D6s as well. |
captainquirk | 09 Jan 2013 1:06 p.m. PST |
Albion is a fairly sophisticated development of the D6 mechanics |
Meiczyslaw | 09 Jan 2013 1:09 p.m. PST |
The Fantasy Trip Advanced Melee and Wizard That's GURPS, versions 0.1, 0.2, and 0.3, written by Steve Jackson when he was still part of Metagaming. |
Angel Barracks | 09 Jan 2013 1:10 p.m. PST |
Depends what you think elegant is. Everway used no dice at all so for my money was very elegant indeed. However many roleplayers are more roll-players than people interested in the actual acting out of the role, so it never did that well. I think Dreampark used d6 quite well though..? |
Who asked this joker | 09 Jan 2013 1:18 p.m. PST |
That's GURPS, versions 0.1, 0.2, and 0.3, written by Steve Jackson when he was still part of Metagaming. Kind of. They are better games than GURPS. Completely subjective of course! |
Eclectic Wave | 09 Jan 2013 1:21 p.m. PST |
What nobody has mentioned the HERO system yet? |
Meiczyslaw | 09 Jan 2013 1:23 p.m. PST |
Kind of. They are better games than GURPS. They weren't much different from GURPS v.1 -- but they are different from the current version of GURPS which is what? four? five? |
Extra Crispy | 09 Jan 2013 1:24 p.m. PST |
There is no reason a D6 can't work with as much detail as you want. Use 2 or 3 or for everything. Heck, make a game in base 6 where red 1 + white 4 = 14 and red three + white 1 – 31 and so on. I never understand this fixation with die type. What really matters is the distribution curve. Are the chances to hit in 1% increments or 10% increments? What dice you use are immaterial. But people assume D6=crude D100=too complex. Weird. |
Tom Reed | 09 Jan 2013 1:26 p.m. PST |
I'll mention the Hero System. Been playing it for years and it seems to work ok for everything from superheroes to SciFi. |
billthecat | 09 Jan 2013 1:37 p.m. PST |
Is the HERO system a d6 based system? I thought it was d10 based? I'll check out 'Albion' and GURPS
No info on the 'CODA' system? Thanks all, just playing with ideas. |
elsyrsyn | 09 Jan 2013 1:43 p.m. PST |
Depends what you think elegant is.Everway used no dice at all so for my money was very elegant indeed. I tend to agree with this approach. The best campaign I ever ran was based loosely on the Palladium RPG, but by the time it peaked I'd basically replaced the mechanisms in the rules with my own d% system – I assigned a probability to an event (hitting a target, making that leap to the chandelier, convincing the barmaid to give you credit, or whatever) and rolled d% against that. Most of the time, the roll itself was pretty invisible, since I would just hit the random # button on my scientific calculator. This way, the mechanics of the game did not get in the way of the narrative (and it's that emphasis on the narrative that separates an RPG from a wargame, in my book). Doug |
Dynaman8789 | 09 Jan 2013 2:22 p.m. PST |
For GURPS the best place to start is with GURPS lite, since it is free. sjgames.com/gurps/lite Although I love The Fantasy Trip and played it to death back in the day, the system can only be used for the TFT background where the latest GURPS version can be used for just about anything – although it still creaks along a bit when used for super hero gaming IMHO. |
Meiczyslaw | 09 Jan 2013 2:25 p.m. PST |
I never understand this fixation with die type. What really matters is the distribution curve. I should scrounge up one of my old posts on the concept of statistical runs, anticipating them, and muting them. Basically, a "run" is a sequence of repeated results. In a simple 50-50 success test, the larger die types will produce longer "runs" than the smaller ones. It's kind of a freaky concept, because each isolated 50-50 die roll has the same chance of a particular result. If you record them all, though, you'll see the runs after the fact. I used to remember the math behind it, but it's one of the ways that you can determine whether a sequence of numbers is actually random -- ones generated by people or algorithms tend to have too-short runs. Anyway, one of the things that you want to avoid in game design is too few tests in a game versus your method of getting the result (i.e., type and number of dice rolled) -- you want the good and bad results to occur about evenly for all players, and you don't want a too-long "run" to put a player into a position they can't dig themselves out of. Which is a long way of saying, "use the smallest die types you can get away with," and "D20s " |
CorpCommander | 09 Jan 2013 2:50 p.m. PST |
Hero not only uses the D6, it is non-linear and extremely mechanically consistent all the way through. As for detail it can be as gritty as you want. Its my favorite system but its hard as hell to get new people into it. |
Griefbringer | 09 Jan 2013 3:07 p.m. PST |
Heck, make a game in base 6 where red 1 + white 4 = 14 and red three + white 1 – 31 and so on. This is actually used in a number of games, where it is often called D66 (a bit misleading, since there are only 36 possible results). It works pretty fine used with tables and without modifiers. And by adding one more die it can be extended to D666 (216 possible results). However, once you start throwing in modifiers to the rolls (or target scores) it can get a bit tricky, if the players are only used to base-10 system. Considering the trouble of teaching people to do math in base-6 system, it is probably more elegant to use D10 and D100 instead. Also, if you want to use base-6 system, then the usual D6 should probably be modified by replacing number 6 with 0 (since in base-6 arithmetics one does not actually use number 6, that value being instead represented by the base-6 number 10). |
sillypoint | 09 Jan 2013 3:21 p.m. PST |
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Mako11 | 09 Jan 2013 3:31 p.m. PST |
Still looking for the best dicing system, and I generally like D20s and D100s (2 x D10s read as a percentage) best. I've been considering 2D10s lately though, which are not read as percentage dice, but are added up together, like D6s, in order to get a range from 2 – 20. Looks very promising from what I've read. Of course, you could also use 2D12s as well. Both give a lot more options that just the 2D6. |
Who asked this joker | 09 Jan 2013 3:31 p.m. PST |
They weren't much different from GURPS v.1 -- but they are different from the current version of GURPS which is what? four? five? Nope. Not much different at all. We played GURPS (or maybe 2) for a long time through College and a few years after. Fun game if not a bit "gameable". very fun when you were playing with players who were not power gamers. I mostly prefer TFT/Melee/Wizards because it was a bit more approachable. Everything was just simpler and yet it provided the same gaming experience. SJ wrote GURPS mostly because Metagaming would not give him the rights to TFT. BTW, another link to this wonderful game can be found at darkcitygames.com/. lots of stuff to be had here both free and for a low cost. John |
Cherno | 09 Jan 2013 4:12 p.m. PST |
I think it depends on the type of game being played. A one-shot scenario without any character development / equipment progression (or maybe just a little) is fine for D6s, but as soon as any kind of granularity is required you either have to resort to 2D6 for 11 results with a bell curve (still not enough granularity IMHO) or a goal system approach with a bucket full of dice as in Shadowrun. Advanced Heroquest uses 1 D12 and I think it hits a sweet spot but it's still not enough for longer campaigns or rapid progression. 1 D20 is pretty good I'd say :) |
Griefbringer | 09 Jan 2013 4:37 p.m. PST |
Still looking for the best dicing system, and I generally like D20s and D100s (2 x D10s read as a percentage) best. I tend to have certain fondness for those, also. That said, many of the games using D100 tend not to fully exploit the level of granularity that is allowed; most of the modifiers tend to be in multiples of +/-5. This of course makes for pretty simple calculations, but you could achieve the same level of granularity by using D20 and modifiers in multiples of +/-1. Of course if you are playing a campaign skirmish or role-playing game with character development, then the D100 system can be useful as it allows for the possibility of very gradual character development: gaining one or two to a particular ability after each game might not be a big issue, but eventually those bonuses will accumulate. But for gaming individual wargames, use of D20 already provides quite a decent level of granularity (unless you want to design a game where the chances of success for some actions are likely to be quite low). |
Dynaman8789 | 09 Jan 2013 5:12 p.m. PST |
TFT and GURPS are quite different. Even the first version of GURPS. Main differences being. 1 – In TFT you had a skill or you did not. You could have as many skills as you have IQ points. (simple, easy, works well for many things). In GURPS you can have any number of skills regardless of IQ, your ability in any skill depends on your skill level and the base attribute (DX for agility based skills, IQ for mental based skills). 2 – GURPS does not have Uncle Teeth. (Best monster name ever) |
Who asked this joker | 09 Jan 2013 5:59 p.m. PST |
TFT and GURPS are quite different If you were given a character and told to sit down and play a round of each game, you would find the experience to be very similar. GURPS is far and away more granular under the hood than TFT. GURPS does not have Uncle Teeth.
or the Great Omnipotent Enok. |
Tuudawgs | 09 Jan 2013 6:04 p.m. PST |
I recently ran across "Spellcraft and Swordplay" link It is an attempt to do D&D using the original Chainmail rules with some updates like a simplified ability test. I have played several session and am enjoying it a lot. And, it only uses d6. |
(Phil Dutre) | 10 Jan 2013 12:56 a.m. PST |
Once you know something about probability and distribution curves, the actual dice mechanics are fairly irrelevant, except when to judge them on user-friendliness and elegance. As for using only D6, for me the most elegant mechanics are: - either use a single rol of D6, 2D6, 3D6 and add modifiers (to beat a target number). xD6 with x > 3 is too slow to quickly add up the numbers. D6 gives a linear distribution, 2D6 triangular, 3D6 still piecewise linear but starts to look like a Gaussian distribution. - or throw multiple D6, each trying to beat a target number, and count the number of successes. This results in Poisson distributions. Modifiers could be either on the number of dice thrown, or the target number, but an elegant system should use only one type of modifier, not both. |
Dynaman8789 | 10 Jan 2013 5:15 a.m. PST |
> If you were given a character and told to sit down and play a round of each game, you would find the experience to be very similar. Not really, first thing you notice is that in GURPS you can dodge and block, can't do that in TFT. If that character sheet has disadvantages and advantages filled in (which in GURPS it should, and in TFT there are none) it would also feel quite different. Needless to say, actually filling out those character sheets is very different. |
elsyrsyn | 10 Jan 2013 7:08 a.m. PST |
- or throw multiple D6, each trying to beat a target number, and count the number of successes. This results in Poisson distributions. Modifiers could be either on the number of dice thrown, or the target number, but an elegant system should use only one type of modifier, not both. I wonder if this sort of system (possibly with the same for saves) is becoming more popular in RPGs, perhaps as a result of the Warhammer and Warmaster influence. Also, while I really don't care about dice mechanisms for RPGs as much as I do for miniatures gaming, I am sort of a fan of opposed die roll systems in general. There are lots of interesting ways to fiddle with the interactions, and they generally keep both sides of the conflict active. Doug |
Who asked this joker | 10 Jan 2013 7:29 a.m. PST |
Not really, first thing you notice is that in GURPS you can dodge and block, can't do that in TFT. You are very detail focused. In both you can make a limited move and attack. Or you can step and shoot. Or you can step and cast a spell. You can also run at full and all out attack. Or enter HTH combat. In both you roll to get lower than your dex plus modifiers. Like I said, it is the same game play experience. How you get there can be a little different: Weapons do damage in TFT and you have a minimum strength to wield. Weapons add to damage in GURPS and your strength does the actual damage. Spells are picked like skills in both systems. In TFT there are not an insane amount of prerequisites to get a fireball. In gurps, it was something like 9 spells for prerequisites. Mostly, like I said, it is a granularity thing. But even spells are cast in the same manner. You roll your intelligence or less plus mods in both games. You lose strength in both games. Hit points are strength in TFT. In GURPS you have the 4th stat of Health. So a caster is weaker in TFT since he actually drains his strength for mana. This can leave him, shall we say, very vulnerable if he casts a lot of spells! |
Who asked this joker | 10 Jan 2013 7:31 a.m. PST |
- or throw multiple D6, each trying to beat a target number, and count the number of successes. This results in Poisson distributions. Modifiers could be either on the number of dice thrown, or the target number, but an elegant system should use only one type of modifier, not both. This is one of my favorite game mechanics for any sort of gaming. I prefer to modify number of dice thrown. It works well because there are no guaranteed successes. You can always miss with all of your dice. |
Meiczyslaw | 10 Jan 2013 7:38 a.m. PST |
I wonder if this sort of system (possibly with the same for saves) is becoming more popular in RPGs, perhaps as a result of the Warhammer and Warmaster influence. It's basically the system that White Wolf has always used except with d10s. If you're coming over from Vampire/Mage/etc., it's very familiar. Now that I think about it, the Heavy Gear RPG used a system like that, where you rolled multiple d6s, and every 6 after the first added one to the overall result. (So two sixes would be a seven, three would be eight, etc.) |
elsyrsyn | 10 Jan 2013 8:45 a.m. PST |
This is one of my favorite game mechanics for any sort of gaming. I prefer to modify number of dice thrown. It works well because there are no guaranteed successes. You can always miss with all of your dice. Although, if the result is judged a success if any one of the N dice are successes, the system becomes asymptotic very quickly as N rises. Doug |
Dynaman8789 | 10 Jan 2013 11:43 a.m. PST |
> You are very detail focused. I certainly can't argue with that! I choose the 2 examples I did though, due to their making the game play much differently. Parry and Dodge makes defense a much larger part of the game, and plays heck with the odds distribution from the original TFT. The advantages and disadvantages or neat stuff for an RPG, but I should have left them out since they did not directly involve the die rolling / probability system in the game. |
Who asked this joker | 10 Jan 2013 2:07 p.m. PST |
Parry and Dodge makes defense a much larger part of the game, and plays heck with the odds distribution from the original TFT. That is certain. After a while we got tired of the back and forth of the ultra high defense armored combat where you had to first feint, then hit and then hope the other guy failed his defense roll. We started using alternate methods to try and minimize the long back and forth combats. Eventually, we just stopped. In retrospect, it would be easy enough to make hits less lethal but quicker by removing the defense roll and have a defense penalty instead. 1 hit causes a hit and then you have to break through the opponents armor as normal
very much similar to TFT
but not exactly. I think this is a sweet spot for RPG combat in general. That is probably why DnD is still alive and kickin'. |
Ganesha Games | 13 Jan 2013 11:57 a.m. PST |
I confirm that Tales of Blades and Heroes by Ganesha uses only d6. It is an opposed roll for combat (d6 + weapon skill vs d6 + weapon skill) with four separate damage tables based on how much you beat the opponent by. Table rolls are 2d6 + modifiers for weapon, strength , armor worn by target etc. Skill rolls count number of successes scored against a basic Quality target number rolling 1 to 3 dice (average character has a 4 so scores one success per die half of the time; easy stuff requires one success, medium difficulty stuff requires 2, and difficult stuff requires 3). |
Kealios | 09 Sep 2013 10:58 p.m. PST |
Its not necromancy if the thread is still on the first page, right? :) HERO was my first RPG over 20 years ago, and continues to be one of my favorites. I havent played other d6 games, but my RPG repertoire is well over 30 systems by now. Regardless, check this document out. It will help ease the fear of this amazing toolbox game: link Oh, and this last campaign I am in, I introduced one of my friends to Hero. After only two sessions, he exclaimed in the middle of one game, "Man, I love this system!". It kind of confirmed what I've known all along – spend a bit of time with it and it grows on you as it accomplishes what you're looking for
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Andy ONeill | 10 Sep 2013 1:13 p.m. PST |
Another system is feng shui. Target score is required for a success at something. Character has a skill score. Roll a +d6 and add, a -d6 and subtract. If you roll a 6, roll again. Even if you're really good at something you can fail, or vice versa. We decided we didn't like the effect of jumping back in gurps. +3 for nothing was too good in hth. |