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"Argentina Rattles the Ol' Sabre Again..." Topic


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Action Log

03 Jan 2013 7:57 a.m. PST
by The Editor

  • Changed title from "Argentinna Rattles the Ol' Sabre Again..." to "Argentina Rattles the Ol' Sabre Again..."

1,651 hits since 3 Jan 2013
©1994-2014 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

R Mark Davies03 Jan 2013 5:43 a.m. PST

Christina Ferdinand von Kirchner is at it again, rattling Peron's old fascist sabre and making demands over the Falklands that she has absolutey no historical, moral or legal right to make. Her mother presumably never told it that it was wrong to lie or steal:

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20897675

Meanwhile, inhabitants of Planet Earth can read about what REALLY happened in 1833 here:

falklandshistory.org

Personal logo Klebert L Hall Supporting Member of TMP03 Jan 2013 6:00 a.m. PST

You sure do get awful worked up about this crap, man.

On the bright side, about all Argentina's military has is an "old sabre", so the Falklands are pretty safe…
-Kle.

Personal logo Dom Skelton Sponsoring Member of TMP03 Jan 2013 6:17 a.m. PST

It's odd, but historically Argentina's government's tended to rattle that particular sabre when they need to take their people's minds off of the fact that they're completely Bleeped texting up domestic affairs and / or busily destroying their own economy. Still, I can't imagine that's what's happening this time….

Chocolate Fezian03 Jan 2013 6:23 a.m. PST

It was Galtieri not Peron, Peron didn't want them.
Apparently.

Personal logo elsyrsyn Supporting Member of TMP03 Jan 2013 6:42 a.m. PST

Peron was too busy with Madonna.

Doug

R Mark Davies03 Jan 2013 6:49 a.m. PST

Kle, I imagine that it has something to do with my neighbour losing her son on an RN Frigate the last time Argentina started spouting this crap. No, Argentina doesn't have the military capability do achieve very much, but since when did that stop lunatic regimes from starting stupid wars and causing lives to be lost?

Peron hoped to get them when Britain lost WW2, so from 1941 onwards started a national 'education' programme of false history and propaganda which continues to this day. As Dom says, the Argentine regime predictably drags this out as a distrction every time they're having serious domestic problems most notably in 1982.

Personal logo McKinstry Supporting Member of TMP Fezian03 Jan 2013 6:52 a.m. PST

With Chavez circling the drain, Kirchner may be trying to grab the anti-colonialism bull feces prize before Morales can step up.

R Mark Davies03 Jan 2013 7:21 a.m. PST

McKinstry,

Quite. Her mother also clearly didn't tell her the meaning of 'irony'…

How can one rail against colonialism while simultaneously demanding that they should be allowed to colonise and subjugate someone else's territory and its indigenous population?

Chocolate Fezian03 Jan 2013 8:36 a.m. PST

Mark you crack me up.
Argentina's current claim dates back to 1964 Peron wasn't even in office, and in '82 when they invaded he'd been dead for 8 years.
In 1941 he was still in the army and didn't get into the government until 1943. He didn't become President until 1946.
Relations between Argentina and Britain were generally good when Peron was in power.
And he isn't regarded as fascist either.

David Manley03 Jan 2013 9:05 a.m. PST

"It's odd, but historically Argentina's government's tended to rattle that particular sabre when they need to take their people's minds off of the fact that they're completely ing up domestic affairs and / or busily destroying their own economy."

Not odd at all. I thought it was SOP for governments everywhere. When things are bad at home, get everyone shouting at the funny guy next door.

Personal logo Brigadier General Supporting Member of TMP03 Jan 2013 9:18 a.m. PST

I don't know, I think that the Argentine might put up a better fight this time. However it appears they are so deep in debt they probably couldn't afford a 3 day deployment.

R Mark Davies03 Jan 2013 9:39 a.m. PST

Chocloate,

Sorry, yes, half-arsed recollection of who was Argentine president during WW2. The fact remains that the wholesale manufacture of the 'Malvinas Myth' by the Argentine government commenced in 1941, was pushed into the national education system in 1943 and was enthusiastically pushed by Peron and his successors post-war, leading to the shameful presentation and acceptance of a pack of lies as 'history' at the UN in 1964/65, the war of 1982 and 1,000 deaths. Argentine schoolchildren continue to be fed a daily diet of 'Malvinas son Argentinas' lies and propaganda in the education system, leading directly to this festering sore.

Yes, I know that Peron was dead by 1982, but not a fascist? :o)

Frothers Did It And Ran Away03 Jan 2013 9:45 a.m. PST

Argentina is a member of the UN Security Council now (along with that other major world power Rwanda) – must make for some awkward moments over tiffin.

David Manley03 Jan 2013 9:49 a.m. PST

I've experienced the UNSC myself – no more awkward than it normally is :)

panzerCDR03 Jan 2013 10:15 a.m. PST

Well, Rwanda has been more effective at power projection than Argentina has. Of course it is easier to go cross border than across the South Atlantic. . .

Edwulf03 Jan 2013 12:31 p.m. PST

Their army is weaker than before.
Our garrison is stronger there now.
They cant take it illegally through invasion and legally they have no leg to stand on.

Shes just trying to deflect the Argentine equivelent of Sun and Daily Mail readers from how Bleeped texted up Argentina is now.

GarrisonMiniatures Supporting Member of TMP03 Jan 2013 12:58 p.m. PST

If these are even partially accurate, I don't see Argentina being able to mount an invasion by themselves:

link

link

link

link

R Mark Davies03 Jan 2013 1:30 p.m. PST

No, I don't for a second imagine that they could mount an invasion – or at least not one that would survive for very long. However, the harassment of commercial shipping going to and from Falklands waters has been steadily racked up over the past few years and with this sort of rhetoric, one wonders where it is going – particularly with increased commercial shipping operating out of the Falklands, the forthcoming Falklands deepwater port and imminent deep-sea oil production.

The usual one or two RN guard-ships can't be everywhere at once. Having exhausted all diplomatic avenues, a desperate Argentine government, having boxed itself into a corner through this sort of populist rhetoric, may decide to take more direct means to economically attack the Falklands.

darthfozzywig Supporting Member of TMP03 Jan 2013 2:19 p.m. PST

I've experienced the UNSC myself no more awkward than it normally is :)

UNSC is a lot cooler with GZG's 15mm minis.

Nick H Inactive Member04 Jan 2013 2:44 a.m. PST

The other worrying aspect is Argentina getting Uruguay and other South American countries to ban ships flying a Falklands Island pennant. It's not the military aspect they're going for, it's political and economic harrassment presumably with the vague notion that Britain would get fed up and give the islands away rather than face the hassle.

What Argentina constantly ignores is the right of the islanders to choose their own allegiance and nationality. One the one hand, it's because they know they would lose any referrendum on nationality if one were held but on the other there's a cultural difference between Britain and Argentina: The latter talks about the land, the former talks about the inhabitants.

A very good book which goes into the culture of Argentinian nationalism is Hugh Bircheno's study of the Falklands War "Razor's Edge".

John D Salt04 Jan 2013 4:12 a.m. PST

Nick H wrote:


A very good book which goes into the culture of Argentinian nationalism is Hugh Bircheno's study of the Falklands War "Razor's Edge".

Excellent book. No matter how many other books you're read on the Falklands War, Bicheno is still very well worth reading. As well as a penetrating analysis of the politics, he does a superb job on how the micro-terrain affected the infantry battles -- most unusual to see an author capable of tackling both levels so well.

All the best,

John.

Mako1105 Jan 2013 12:38 a.m. PST

Nothing a single, well placed, sub-launched cruise missile can't solve…..

Bangorstu12 Jan 2013 3:58 p.m. PST

P&O have announced that they will stop visiting Argentina given their policy of denying entry or impounding ships that have visited the Falklands.

So this sabre rattling has brilliantly cost a broke Argentina a lot of tourist cash….

tuscaloosa13 Jan 2013 8:14 a.m. PST

"What Argentina constantly ignores is the right of the islanders to choose their own allegiance and nationality."

You will forgive my skepticism at this statement, since it comes at the heels of four centuries of British colonial adventures throughout the world, during which some two/fifths of the world's population found themselves "British", after their British overlords ignored their right to choose their own allegiance and nationality.

Classic case of do what I say, not what I did.

Gary Kennedy13 Jan 2013 9:27 a.m. PST

Well that sounds nice and simple, but we are talking about real people here, people who have lived in the Islands from a few years to a few generations, people for who this is their home.

I'll be sceptical that they should be chosen as the means to punish the long gone British Empire for what are deemed its wrongs over centuries, for the most of which the Falkland Islands was a largely quiet part of said Empire (apart from a rather noisy period during the Great War).

The Falklanders will vote in March whether they wish to remain under UK jurisdiction. If they vote majority yes, then they will have been asked and responded accordingly. If they vote no then the situation would change markedly. The current, and extremely vocal protests from the Argentine Govt do not, to the best of my knowledge, acknowledge any rights of the inhabitants of the Islands to decide how they are governed. They want the land, and do not appear to have made any attempt to persuade the Islanders that they would have a real and equitable future as part of Argentina. If they have, then my apologies as I've missed it.

This will remain an emotional issue for a fair few of us in the UK, 255 dead servicemen ensures that. There is though no realistic question of that situation repeating giving current capabilities. There is probably a greater chance of the issue being forced through legal channels, though again there doesn't seem much enthusiasm for that at the moment.

I would not like to have to nip down to the Falklands and tell everyone to get packed, you're moving because your heritage and political preference to remain under UK sovereignty are now just too awkward for the 21st century.

For myself I think it would be rather sad to watch news reports of the Islanders packing up their belongings and coming 'home' to the UK, which a fair few of them have never seen, while boatloads of excited Argentinians set sail for a new life in the Malvinas, which they've never seen either, because 'you're in the wrong place'.

Hopefully it will remain nothing more than a topic of discussion while the real people involved can get on with life without worrying whether they have to up sticks and move 8000 miles, or get used to life under a new govt, legal system and language.

Gary

R Mark Davies13 Jan 2013 12:34 p.m. PST

Tuscaloosa,

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Bangorstu13 Jan 2013 3:31 p.m. PST

Tuscaloosa – well we did do that. But then so did the Americans, French, Dutch, Germans….

Just bout everyone. But that was then and this is now.

ThomasHobbes13 Jan 2013 3:38 p.m. PST

Argentina has no sabre to rattle:

AF:
Only 15 Mirage III's still in service (Israeli Nesher/Fingers retired in 2012). The Mirages are apparently scheduled to be retired in 2013. These are mainly the same jets that were used in 1982. They are to be replaced by a locally designed jet trainer, the AT-63 Pampa which is equivalent to the Macchis used by the Italian Air Force (and in past New Zealand).

AF also has some 36 upgraded A-4 Skyhawks but these are no match for a Eurofighter and have no BVR capability

Navy has about 7-11 Super Etendards in service – again these are only being upgraded now and are quite old.

The C-130 fleet is smaller and in poorer state than in 1982. The B707 tankers have been retired too.


The Navy is in quite a poor state too – subs are largely non-operational (only 19 days underwater in 2012) and most of the surface fleet is in a poor state too with many ships not operational or breaking down during deployments. All date from the 1980s and have not been upgraded.

You will forgive my skepticism at this statement, since it comes at the heels of four centuries of British colonial adventures throughout the world, during which some two/fifths of the world's population found themselves "British", after their British overlords ignored their right to choose their own allegiance and nationality.

Classic case of do what I say, not what I did.


tuscaloosa, some facts for you:

1. Falkland Islands did not have an indigenous population prior to arrival of settlers (though I think it has penguins). It was an empty bunch of rocks.

2. Britain colonised the islands before Argentina was even a country.

3. Early history of Falklands is about claim and counter claim from the various colonial powers at the time (Spain, England, France).

4. Only the British established any sort of permanent settlement (Argies used it as a prison once from memory).

tuscaloosa13 Jan 2013 4:44 p.m. PST

I dispute none of your facts, Mr. Hobbes.

They are completely irrelevant to the irony of Brits claiming local identity as the basis for souvereignty after three centuries of rapacious colonialism throughout the rest of the globe, however.

ThomasHobbes13 Jan 2013 5:03 p.m. PST

British colonialism in other parts of the world in the past is completely irrelevant to the Falklands.

The Falkland Islanders have for nearly the whole human history of the Falkland Islands been of British descent.

And by the way Argentina itself is the product of Spanish colonialism and European migration.

The greater irony is that of ex-colonial Argentina attempting to colonise the Falklands through allegations of British colonialism.

Fuebalashi Dakasonomichi Inactive Member13 Jan 2013 11:03 p.m. PST

Let's not even mention the imperialist annexation of the Kingdom of Hawai'i by the USA…

basileus66 Supporting Member of TMP13 Jan 2013 11:38 p.m. PST

All these debates about 'rights' are pretty pointless. The only thing that actually matters is that Argentina has not the power to enforce her possession of the islands, while UK does.

Bangorstu14 Jan 2013 12:28 a.m. PST

Tuscaloosa – I'm goin to guess the majority of Falklad Islanders have been on that bunch of rocks longer thn your fmaily has been in america.

Shall we take your passport off you and deport you?

Bangorstu14 Jan 2013 12:30 a.m. PST

I'll further note that given no indigenous population etc the British claim to the Falklands is greater than the US one to New Mexico….

Gennorm14 Jan 2013 3:57 a.m. PST

A further point for Tuscaloosa – empires existed for most of human history and the British Empire was formed at a time when such an institution was not necessarily deemed wrong. The world has moved on from that situation and empires are no longer accepted. To say that Britain cannot now assert the right to self-determination is like saying that the USA cannot condemn slavery, racial segregation, the lack of votes for women or religious persecution.

Chouan14 Jan 2013 5:07 a.m. PST

""What Argentina constantly ignores is the right of the islanders to choose their own allegiance and nationality."

You will forgive my skepticism at this statement, since it comes at the heels of four centuries of British colonial adventures throughout the world, during which some two/fifths of the world's population found themselves "British", after their British overlords ignored their right to choose their own allegiance and nationality.

Classic case of do what I say, not what I did."

Tuscaloosa, given that the US has a bigger overseas colonial empire than Britain does, your comments sound more than a little hypocritical. How much choice did the people of Puerto Rico
get in who their colonial overlord was to be?

Personal logo Dom Skelton Sponsoring Member of TMP14 Jan 2013 5:54 a.m. PST

I assume Tuscaloosa is aiming to return the USA to the native Americans and Bleeped text off back where he came from…?

Ascent14 Jan 2013 7:13 a.m. PST

As the Falkland islands have been a British territory for longer then Texas has been American will the Americans be retuning it to Mexico if the British give up the Falklands?

Bangorstu16 Jan 2013 2:27 p.m. PST

Incidentally, assuming it used to be part of Granada, I think we've now owned Gibraltar for longer than the Spanish did…

R Mark Davies23 Jan 2013 12:24 p.m. PST

I think someone was rattling the sabre a bit too hard on board the ARA Santissima Trinidad…

picture

Needless to say, Argentine Defence Minister Puricelli claims it was more likely to have been sabotage than poor maintenance…

PHGamer25 Jan 2013 8:52 a.m. PST

Unfortunately, the Argentines are taking this very seriously. Much more than the islands are worth.

My nephew is going to finish his studies in Argentina, and already he is full of the Malvinas propaganda. I was in Argentina 6 months before the Falklands War. And the propaganda now has the same feel as then. I had a reeducation session with him at Christmas.

I don't think the Argentines have any military capability to have another go at it, with their warships sinking at the pier, and their training ship being confiscated by the banks. But I told him, you're going to live there, you'll have to accept their version of events, but always keep airfare on you, and always know where the embassy is for when the economic situation goes pants.

P Q Pariu 2 Inactive Member25 Jan 2013 1:45 p.m. PST

It wasn't sabotage it was 'la mano de dios' ;-)

Curiously enough Santissima Trinidad was sabotaged and almost sunk by Montonero guerillas back in the seventies in an operation copied from British commando exploits during the Second World War, right down to limpet mines and folboats. One of the participants was later 'recruited' by the Argentine security forces and used in an aborted attempt to attack a British warship in Gibraltar in 1982.

Fact is sometimes stranger than fiction.

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