"Black Powder For Quebec 1759" Topic

Has anybody used the Black Powder rules for a refight of Quebec?

Warlord Games has a scenario on their web page:

link

Has anyone tried the above scenario. Reading it I was surprise of the low ratings the Marines received. I would of thought they were superior to the Regulars.

Maybe I'm bias.

The are NOT "Marines"! Or, "Marines as we know them. They were NOT naval infantry.
They were "Compagnie Franche de la Marine". (Very) Loosely translated, that means "Frei Korps under the management of the Department of Overseas Affairs." They are average to fair troops trained to operate in the wilderness. By no means what I would rate them "elite".
Nor would I rate Rangers elite, either. They are specialized troops, nothing more.

Quebec was a stand up European style battle, in which Rangers or "marines" had no business, except for being available. They probably had no clue how to fight in line.

Oh. Heh heh.
I just saw your member name.
Sorry, Dude, but as I said above, they were NOT "elite" troops.

French colony regulars were good light infantry. Putting them in close-order line is kind of a waste.

They certainly are not elite troops in the stat line shown in the scenario. With a stamina of 2 they kind of suck.

That's unfair, while years of campaigning in Canada's forests may have affected thier ability to fight in close order somewhat, they were effective light infantry.

I would not consider them elite either but as everybody's comments above good at fighting in the forest.

I guess what I mean is I would of thought they had more interest in maintaining New France then the Regular French Infantry. Maybe not the same skill in line on a plain but better determination.

Happy New Years

It is possible that they are given such a low stamina so that the scenario works out for that particular battle than as a comment on their overall fighting ability.

At the battle of the palins of Abraham they were used as "line" troops in Colonial battalions so thier ability to skirmish was not utilised so perhaps the scenerio reflects this? I would imagine that many of the members of these colonial battalions were drafted Quebec militia (effective forest fighters in the own right), as were many in the French regular battalions.

Towards the end of the battle, the Quebec Militia (with a few Marines?) cut up Fraser's Highlanders on flank. Believe it was a forest area where the Canadians were at their best.

Hello All and Happy New Year,
Could not help but respond to this article on La Marine. First let's put to rest the proper name of this fighting unit. What is in a name? Well the French Marines can be referred to by several names: Les Compagnies Franches de la Marine, Troupes de la Marine, Canadian Regulars, companies of La Marine Regiment,colony troops,colonial troops,Compagnies Detachees de la Marine, Compagnies Francaises, or just plain marines. These troops were established in 1622 by Richelieu for The Ministry of the Marine. They took a very active part in 1680 in fighting the Iroquois. So referring to them as marines is not incorrect. You say tomato, I say…, you get the picture. Converting the historical role of these boys to a set of rules and to the gaming table has always been a challenge to say the least. First French Marines should be divided into two groups. The first group is the garrison/gendarmes type troops. These are troops that would be at forts, supplying security, and guard duty. These type of marines would most likely have a better grasp of the French military drill system. I myself would rate these fellows as top notch provincial type or low grade regulars. These are not Frei-Corps type troops(sorry John if I am not grasping exactly what you are trying say). Frei-Corps most of the time would totally disband after a certain period. The French Marines did not(maybe reduced in numbers,but not disbanded). So their training and drill would be maintained.
The second group would be the frontier/outpost marines. These are the boys that are in close contact with the natives and militia. They have not only learned to live with these people,but have married into their cultures. The most important thing they have learned from these people, is the art of war. For woodland warfare I would rate them slightly better then rangers and light infantry in movement, and weapon skills. Also their stamina in the woods should rate very good. A word of caution, they do not stack up well in open battles such as La Belle Famille and etc… . John is right about the elite ratings, they are not that type of unit.That is just my two cents. If you really want to learn more about the French Marines. Heritage Books has a nice selection. Here are some must read titles:
La Marine-Gallup and Shaffer
Leading by Example, Vol.1,2,3- Bob Bearror
French and Indian War Battlesites: A Controversy- Bob Bearror
The French Invasion of Western Pennsylvania-Donald Kent
Memoir of a French and Indian War Soldier("Jolicoeur" Charles Bonin)- Andrew Gallup
Hope this has provided some help and insight to the French Marines.
take care,
Keith

Hello Keith

Thanks for your input.

I myself am a English Speaking Canadian but have always had a interest in New France.

I consider troupes de la Marine in Canada during the period as New France's regulars, expert in the Native style of fighting. While troupes de terra as France's Regular Regiments in North America.

I see your point about different types of troupes de Marine. Big difference between being in garrison in Louisbourg and war on the run next to Lake Champlain.

I guess you can also say there was a difference for these troops in using the forest as cover to ambush New England militia and then standing on a plain in front of regular British Infantry.

cheers

Greetings to you in New France(Canada). I live in the Western Pennsylvania area around Fort Ligonier. I have had the pleasure of talking with a lot of French Marine re-enactors/living history people. One( Bruce Egli) was a speaker in the documentary "When the Forest Ran Red". So some of the info I share is from some very reliable sources. The marines in this area would have been not unlike the ones in the wilderness of New York. They may have even been a little more rough around the edges. One other point I forgot to bring to light was that they rarely fought together as a battalion. Most of the time they were broke up into companies and assigned as such. If you look at what the French forces(regulars,marines,militia, and natives) accomplished in the FIW, it is really remarkable. The French Marines may not have been an elite fighting force in conventional warfare, but in the forest the marines,natives,and militia were second to none, and should reflect this in rules. Badly outnumbered,forced to fight conventional 18th century battles, and a corrupt government is what led to their defeat.
take care,
Keith

Last year, Jean Charles Soulié has contributed a set of articles to "Kronoskaf – Project SYW" on the Compagnies Franches de la Marine. The "root" article is at the following address:

link

As Loyalhanna stated they were usually operating in companies and were rarely grouped in battalions. They were probably very good in petite guerre but would be far from elite in an European style open battle.

Note the soldiers of this corps still came from France. However, by the time of the SYW most of their officers were from Canada.

Hope it helps,

Richard

Great Link