"Russian Plumes" Topic
18 Posts
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Tomg333 | 23 Dec 2012 3:20 p.m. PST |
It's time to start painting 1812 Russian infantry and I need some help. For regular infantry units, did the flag bearers and drummers have plumes? Same question for jaegers. |
Ilodic | 23 Dec 2012 4:22 p.m. PST |
If you trust the accuracy of AB miniatures, a look at the drummer about half way down the page. link I responded to a similar question sometime ago on TMP incorrectly, and I was informed line standard bearers did NOT have plumes. Jagers did not carry colours.
ilodic. |
Hugh Johns | 23 Dec 2012 4:28 p.m. PST |
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Shark Six Three Zero | 23 Dec 2012 4:43 p.m. PST |
I have Perry and Warlard Russians. They do not have plumes. The Grenadier Regiments had them but not line infantry. |
MiltKoger | 23 Dec 2012 5:20 p.m. PST |
The flagbearers were NCOs. NCOs had black plumes with a quartered white/orange tip with a black line going from the back to the front. |
Flashman at the charge | 23 Dec 2012 5:22 p.m. PST |
I find that Russian uniforms are much like the nation was. A mystery wrapped in an enigma?
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1815Guy | 23 Dec 2012 6:26 p.m. PST |
Just stick shako covers on them
.. :) |
Tomg333 | 23 Dec 2012 7:51 p.m. PST |
Thanks for the responses. Looks like flag bearers yes and drummers no. |
Hugh Johns | 23 Dec 2012 7:52 p.m. PST |
Pardon me, that's maybe, maybe, huh?, maybe. |
Condotta | 23 Dec 2012 9:06 p.m. PST |
link This resource says line did not have plumes. Strelki had plumes for a short period, then they were removed. link This resource says musketeers regiments had no plumes except for their grenadiers. Good luck. |
plutarch 64 | 24 Dec 2012 12:46 a.m. PST |
I did mine following the Haythornthwaite Ospreys, which were probably referencing Viskovatov (amongst others) anyway. It took me several readings to get my head around it, and I would still not put my house on it, but I went with the following: Plumes for all figures in grenadier and guard battalions, with red plumes for the drummers. For the line infantry and jagers, plumes only for the grenadier and carabinier platoons of the elite companies attached to these battalions. However, as noted already by several above, no plumes for the line musketeer standard bearers nor for their drummers. No standard bearers for the jager battalions, and also no plumes for the line jager musicians. |
Seroga | 24 Dec 2012 1:07 a.m. PST |
Condotta's second link is correct : In Army Grenadier regiments, all combattant ranks had plumes. In Army Infantry (formerly called Musketeer) and Jäger regiments, only the Grenadier platoon in each battalion would have plumes. For flag beraers
. Banner Groups in Grenadier regiments (1 per battalion) all had plumes. Banner Groups in Infantry regiments (1 per battalion) were composed of 6 under-officers (see below under Jäger for these) and and 12 men : 1 rank of 3 men drawn from each of the 4 companies of the battalion, the Banner Ranks. In 1st and 3r battalions, one of these Banner Ranks would be from the Grenadier company, and so 1 or 2 of the men in this rank would be from the Grenadier platoon and thus have plumes. Although the Jäger and Combined Grenadier battalions had no flags, they did form Banner Groups, although the Jäger Banner Group was smaller than normal (6 instead of 18 total men, lacking the Banner Ranks). I believe this was to put some reliable men directly behind the battalion commander, keep the spacing the same as other battalions, etc. For the Combined Grenadier battalions, half the Banner Group would have plumes, as these units were composed of the Stelkovny and Grenadier platoons of 3 regiment's 2nd battalions. However, it is not so simple with Jäger. The 6 members of their Banner Group would be 2 banner-ensigns or ensigns (1 likely from the Grenadier platoon) and 4 junior under-officers (maybe including 1 from the Grenadier platoon, but most likely not). This was the same composition for all Banner Groups. The drummers of a battalion formed in battery, not with their platoons. Again, no question for Grenadier regiments. Combined Grenadier battalions, which did not have a battalion drummer, would have 6 of 9 drummers with plumes. Otherwise there was a regimental (1st battalion) or battalion drummer (2nd and 3rd battalions). These were in the Grenadier platoon for the 1st and 3rd battalions and clearly had plumes, but the battalion drummer actually formed with the (detached) "center" companies of the 2nd battalion. I do not know if would wear a plume or not. I think he had one, but I don't think he would wear it. Next are the company drummers for the 1st and 3rd battalions. Of these there were 3 per company, total 12 per battalion. of these, 2 were enrolled in the Grenadier platoon and clearly had plumes. There were also 2 fifers in that same platoon (only) and they had plumes. With the three center companies of the 2nd second battalion, there would be 9 drummers (noen with plumes) and no fifers. The regimental musicians were enrolled in the 1st battalion's Grenadier platoon, and hence had plumes. Although in action, their duty was casualty evacuation and ammunition re-supply, and they likely did not wear their decorative uniform coats and shakos. A odd case might be in the Jäger. It is unclear if these regiments adopted the standard "recreational" band of the other units when the regiments were standardized. Previously the Jäger had enjoyed waldhornists, and did use them for signaling. Lastly, if you think every regiment and battalion got this all perfectly correct in the middle of a war, I think you are being a tad optimistic. |
Widowson | 24 Dec 2012 3:24 p.m. PST |
Seroga, That's very detailed info. I know who to come to when I have Russian questions. But your info did raise a question with me. Why would any members of a combined grenadier regiment NOT have plumes? Didn't all grenadiers wear plumes? |
14Bore | 24 Dec 2012 4:57 p.m. PST |
My next in a month or so order among other units are combined grenadiers, guess I have to sort this out by then, was going for thin plumes. |
Seroga | 24 Dec 2012 5:08 p.m. PST |
Ah, Widowson, you are really getting good at these Russians! So, I will try to give a good answer. First, one may note that Combined Grenadier battalions were formed from the 2nd Grenadier companies (the grenadier companies of each regiment's 2nd Replacement battalion) in an Infantry division. As there were six regiments in a division, there would be six 2nd Grenadier companies, which would be formed into two Combined Grenadier battalions (identified by number : 1st , 2nd), each of 3 companies – or better, each of 6 platoons. The phrase "combined grenadier regiment" is a little odd. It can be seen occasionally in correspondence pertinent to the 1st Separate Corps to refer to the two Combined Grenadier battalions of a single division. But more generally, two to six such battalions would be termed a Combined Grenadier brigade. There was also a 2nd Combined Grenadier division of 10 such battalions in the 8th Corps, drawn form 5 Infantry divisions. For completeness, one may note that Combined Grenadier battalions were not formed in the Guard, nor with the divisions on campaign against the Turks (8th, 10th, 13th, 16th and 22nd Infantry divisions) or with the garrison divisions in the Kavkaz and Siberia (28th and 29th Infantry [/Garrison] divisions). The troops in Finland (6th, 19th, 20th and 21st Infantry divisions) and the Saint-Petersburg garrison (25th Infantry[/Marine] division) are often said, in error, to not have formed Combined Grenadier battalions. Indeed these were formed, but there were some special situations and assignments for the component 2nd grenadier companies. Well, you may have already guessed the answer to the question about plumes (if you are still reading along, that is). But I will go over it to confirm. for the 1st and 2nd Grenadier divisions, all twelve regiments were Grenadier regiments. So, their 2nd Grenadier companies all had plumes for each man. And so the Combined Grenadier battalions of these divisions did have all men with plumes. For the 3rd and higher-numbered Infantry divisions that formed Combined Grenadier battalions, the 2nd Grenadier companies would have plumes only for their Grenadier platoon, and not for their Strelkov (Marksmen) platoon, so that their Combined Grenadier battalions would be 1/2 equipped with plumes. Specifically, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd platoons of the Combined Grenadier battalion would have plumes and the 4th, 5th and 6th platoons would not. So, when deployed by the right or ployed on the right in a column formed on the center (an "attack column"), the right-hand half-battalion would be grenadiers and have plumes, and the left-hand half-battalion would be strelki and not have plumes. I can explain exactly how this arrangment happened, if anyone wants the details. Widowson, do you know the Cyrillic alphabet? Learn these and you will be surprised how much Russian you could read rather easily. The Russian alphabet А а Б б В в Г г Д д Е е Ё ё Ж ж З з И и Й йК к Л л М м Н н О о П п Р р С с Т т У у Ф ф Х х Ц ц Ч ч Ш ш Щ щ Ъ ъ Ы ы Ь ь Э э Ю ю Я я Before the bolshevik revolution, there were extra letters in use: -- Іі (replaced by Ии) -- Ѣѣ (replaced by Ее) were commonly used in the Napoleonic era.
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Ilodic | 24 Dec 2012 7:01 p.m. PST |
Hi Seroga. I am interested in the details of your last post. I did not realize ANY grenadiers did NOT wear plumes. It would seem a bit confusing to organize ad hoc on the battlefield. I suppose the ones which did not were acting as skirmishing jagers, if you will, in a grenadier battalion. You can email me at ilodic@yahoo.com ilodic. |
Seroga | 24 Dec 2012 11:39 p.m. PST |
From Viskovatov, and not including discussion of plumes on officers' chapeaux
. 30 April 1802 – All Army infantry regiments are ordered to consist of 3 four-company battalions: -- the Life Grenadier regiment of three Grenadier battalions (12 Grenadier companies) -- other Grenadier regiments of one Grenadier (4 Grenadier companies) and two Fusilier battalions (8 Fusilier companies) -- Musketeer regiments of one Grenadier (4 Grenadier companies) and two Musketeer battalions (8 Musketeer companies) -- Jäger regiments of three Jäger battalions (12 Jäger companies) 16 September 1802 – Combatant lower ranks of Jäger regiments are given round hats without plumes. 13 February 1805 – In all Grenadier regiments, the former grenadier and fusilier mitres of combatant lower ranks are replaced by shakos with thick horsehair plumes 19 1/4 inches high and about 8 inches wide. For privates this plume is completely black. For noncommissioned officers the plumes have a white top with an orange stripe in its middle. For company drummers and for fifers the plumes are red. For battalion and regimental drummers and for musicians the plumes are red with the tops as for noncommissioned officers. Shakos for Musketeer battalions in Musketeer regiments are of the same pattern as prescribed at this time for Grenadier regiments, but have no plume, while shakos for the Grenadier battalions in Musketeer regiments do have plumes. 23 December 1805 – Field and company-grade officers serving in the Caucasus are allowed headgear similar to the headgear of their men while on campaign or performing military duties. 19 December 1807 – Combatant lower ranks of Jäger regiments were issued shakos in place of their round hats, still without plumes. 6 December 1809 – Company-grade officers in Grenadier regiments and in Grenadier battalions in Musketeer regimnets are ordered to wear a shako instead of the chapeau when in formation, with the same black hair plumes as privates. Company-grade officers of Jäger regiments are to have shakos without plumes. 12 October 1810 – Regiments of Army infantry were to make the following changes in their organization: -- the Life Grenadier regiment of three Grenadier battalions, each of four Grenadier companies -- other Grenadier regiments of three Fusilier battalions, each of one Grenadier and three Fusilier companies -- Musketeer regiments of three Musketeer battalions, each of one Grenadier and three Musketeer companies -- Jäger regiments of three Jäger battalions, each of one Grenadier and three Jäger companies -- In each Fusilier, Musketeer, and Jäger battalion, the Grenadier company was to be made up of 1st Grenadier platoon and a 2nd Strelkov (Marksmen) platoon. This organization was extended to the 1st, 5th and 9th Grenadier companies of the Life Grenadier regiment on 31 October 1810. 4 February 1811 – In Grenadier regiments, Grenadiers, Strelki (Marksmen) and Fusiliers, i.e. all combatant ranks including officers, have the shakos' former thick plumes replaced with new ones 16 1/2 inches high, 5 3/4 inches wide at the top, and 1 3/4 inches wide at the bottom. Plumes are also accorded to Grenadiers and Strelki (Marksmen) platoons, i.e. the two platoons of the Grenadier companies, in Musketeer and Jäger regiments. 22 February 1811 – The former Musketeer regiments are re-named Infantry regiments. In Infantry and Jäger regiments, it is ordered that onlly the Grenadier platoons (one in each battalion) are to have plumes. 3 April 1814 – With the renaming for distinction of the 1st, 3rd, 8th, 14th, 26th and 29th Jäger regiments as Grenadier Jäger regimnets, there was no change in their plumes. Additional changes effecting plumes were in 1816 and later. Marine and Guard regiments, in general, were as per Army Grenadier regiments but with some differences. |
Seroga | 24 Dec 2012 11:59 p.m. PST |
"acting as skirmishing jagers" In a general sense, the Russian (whole) Jäger battalions were tasked with most of the skirmishing and/or combat in open order (such as in woods or towns). In the event that more such troops were needed, the next candidates were typically Grenadier battalions. If an infantry unit wanted to cover itself with a skirmish screen, there were generally two methods. The first method, used most from 1805 to 1807, was too pull skirmishers from the third rank of a formed (heavy) infantry unit. This was consistent with the typical tactic of deploying formed heavy infantry for fire combat. For 1812-1814, there was increasing emphasis on the use of formed heavy infantry for shock combat, delivered ployed in column, often in a formation essentially identical to a French colonne d'attaque. Consistent with this tactic, there was developed the practice of sending out men from the flank files. One or two files from each or both flanks of each platoon could be thus sent out to act as "zastrelki" to cover the formed infantry unit. This would provide between 24 and 96 men per battalion, depending on the forntage to be covered and/or the commander's preference for one or two chains of skirmishers. This method was used along side of the method of detaching skirmishers from third ranks, and became standardized and codified in doctrinal material very shortly after the Napoleonic era. |
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