"Black Powder For Smaller Games" Topic

Another Black Powder question;

From what I have seen and read Black Powder has lots of miniatures, big club games on larger tables.

How does it handle a smaller game / table or solo.

For example will it good a good game for some thing like the battle of Taviers at Ramillies: Four Dutch Blue Guard Battalions with field guns assaulting Taviers defended by two battalions of the Swiss in French pay.

cheers

From what I have seen and read Black Powder has lots of miniatures, big club games on larger tables.

Correct

For small games try 15mm or 6mm minis

Chocolate, you read his post the wrong way!

If you are going to use it for that you will need to modify some of the rules. It would work for that if you make each battalion its own "brigade" or even broke the battalions up into companies where feasible.

If you did that then it would work. So if you have 4 stand battalions you could treat each battalion as a brigade.

This would work better where you have forces that had companies that would fight independently, like light companies in Napoleonic warfare but could still be with WSS.

It would a quick game but you could do it.

Hello Chocolate,

Thinking 28mm

Hello Pictors Studio,

Trying to decide if Black Powder is for me. One set of rules (ie the tool box) whether it is Taviers (1704), Garcia Hernandez (1812) or McPherson's Ridge (1863).

Ref your post above are you saying that battalions in Black Powder don't move/engage by themselves but as brigades?

Is it correct to give the order out loud "First two battalions to advance on Taviers with the bayonet, Second two battalions to stay in reserve". Still moving/fight as a brigade with battalions?

Thanks

CP, no I didn't.
It's a big game set of rules, for people with big armies, big tables and not much time to play. There's little detail or period flavour, it plays like Warhammer.

"For example will it good a good game (?)for something like the battle of Taviers at Ramillies: Four Dutch Blue Guard Battalions with field guns assaulting Taviers defended by two battalions of the Swiss in French pay."

A game of that size would take about 15 minutes including refreshments and comfort breaks. If you want to play a game with 6 battalions, get a set of rules that handles 6 battalion games.

Pictors plan won't work either, his idea is to turn a 32ish figure battalion into separate companies means that you would need nine companies at a minimum of 12 figures per company (tiny units) so a battalion would become 108 figures, times 4 is 432 figures. So basically he's saying, play a large 28mm army as 4 battalions with 36 very brittle companies.

I don't think Pictors is saying that at all. I think the point is you don't have to use the exact number of figures listed in the rules as the standard sized unit. You could just as easily use much smaller units as the standard size. It only matters if the units would be acting independent of each other.

Actually, Chocolate, BP plays nothing like Warhammer. It plays like Warmaster! Two totally different games, the latter being far superior in every way. The difference is that BP drops WM's stands in favor of WH's individually based figures because that is how the Perry's get down in 28mm. However, at it's heart BP plays like a stand based game that never removes figures. In fact, BP can easily be played using stands.

Units:
A standard infanty unit in BP is 24-30 figures. A large unit is 36-40. Small is 12-16. Tiny is 5-6. But everything in BP is relative.

Page 10: "Players who wish to have unit sizes that differ from the above are welcome to do so. This will make no difference so long as both sides adopt the same convention. The proportions given can easily be used to scale the units up or down as required."

This means that in 28mm, I could make a standard 12, small 6, tiny 3, and large 18. All I need to make sure is that the formations work out. Since ACW only uses line and march column, which can handle any figure count per unit without problem, the only "problem child" formation is in Napoleonics--attack column.

Page 15: "An attack column is a regular formation of infantry between three and six ranks deep with at least as many files as it has ranks (ie, the column must be at least as many men wide as it is deep.)" Of course, gentlemanly gamers can easily agree that a formation is attack column even when the formation does not meet this exact criteria and might look like another formation, such as march column. In BP, as in any 28mm horse-and-musket game, march column really won't be used much anyway, so it shouldn't be much of an issue IMO.

Commanders:
Black Powder, like its predecessor the Warmaster series of games, is all about command and control. It's all about leadership moving units about the battlefield. In BP, each player will have an army general at the top of the C&C chain.

An ideal game of BP would then have the general overseeing three brigades. Each brigade would be commanded by a brigade general (or whatever you want to call him depending on the level of game being played). Brigade commander is a generic BP term. Each brigade commander would then ideally have between three to five units under his immediate control. It is the brigade commander who makes the command rolls to see if his units move or fail to move. So in an ideal standard BP game you would have 1 General, 3 Brigade Commanders, and 9 units of infantry. Artillery and cavalry are tacked on or made independant as the period/game demands.

Now, what Pictors was saying is that for a very small battle as you mention you can do it this way: you would still have an army general in charge of everything. Again, army general is a generic term in BP. Instead of making the four Dutch units into a single briade with a single brigade commander--which would make the game very shallow, un-fun, and too quick--all you need to do is make each unit its own "brigade" so to speak in game terms.

So what you would have is a "general" for the entire Dutch force. Then you would have four battalion commanders. Each commander would order a single battalion about the battlefield. Or you could have two commanders, each commanding two battalions. It all is very flexible. I've never played on that small a scale, but it would pose some very interesting situations that I'm sure those commanders would have faced in real life.

The Battles Mentioned:
I'm really just a casual SYW and Napoleonic player, so I can't speak as an expert on those battles you mention. IMO the period flavor in BP comes from the special rules one gives to the units. The game is not as crunchy as something like Age of Reason or Napoleon's Battles, which I own and have played. No where near as crunchy as Johnny Reb III, which I also own. However, I have a life and do this as a hobby, not to impress my enemies and amaze my friends with arcane rules knowledge. So BP fits my personality perfectly, being more an abstract thinker big picture guy than someone worrying about the electical outlet in the wall while the house burns down around him. Nicht war?

As for McPherson's Ridge, my personal obcession in ACW miniature gaming having gone so far as to walk the battlefield, Black Powder will handle it no problem. Been there and done that several times in 15mm. In fact, it does a great job representing the leadership problems of the battle.

I scrapped my own ACW Warmaster variant for Black Powder long ago. I play only with each unit being a regiment.

So the choice is yours, my friend. I think I've given quite a bit of info. I now must retire to the living quarters to partake in some television viewing.

CPBelt has it right.

CPBelt has covered BP well. But it works best for a larger number of units organised as brigades. You could manage this by splittinng each battalion into sub units (and I don't know if this is appropriate for the action mentioned) but otherwise Taviers would indeed be a very quick game.

One advantage BP might have at that scale is that the musketry ranges would be more realistic. House rules might ensure that companies of a given battalion retain particular formations when operating together. So it might work, but would certainly require a certain amount of input on your part.

One plus is the command rules which will work well in solo play in so far as you specify what you want to do, and the dice tell you how far that can actually be achieved.

So basically both you and Pictors are saying lay out 30 quid for a set of rules then rewrite them?
So how do you handle shouting out your orders? Something like this? YouTube link
Buy a set that works for the number of figures you want to use or write your own, or buy Black Powder and rewrite it, it's your time and money.
I now must retire to the living quarters to refight Waterloo with 4 figures per side using my rewritten version of Blood Bowl.

"Chocolate"

I use BP for lots of periods. For Darkest Africa for example. A unit is a unit, so a company is a "brigade" with the units platoons. No mods needed, everything plays exactly the same way and it gives a good game.

It also does NOT play like warhammer. It is a derivitive of WARMASTER, a totally different set of rules.

You could and we do play small battles. Simply break down the battalions into companies if it's very small, or for half a dozen units a side, simply ignore the brigade breakpoint rules and use moves or victory conditions instead.

Actually, we always ignore the brigade BP rules as the supporting unit tests seem to cause enough routs on their own. We finish games in two hours with a dozen units a side without them.

If you have a small table, half the distances or only allow a max of 2 moves for a successful order. Hardly a difficult or unusual mod for gamers in any rules.

So no re-writing, can be used for all levels of game, no mods needed and not like warhammer.

Other than that, you are spot on and your attitude is a credit to you.

Jaz
6sided.net

Some good ideas for small BP games here:
link

Chocobuddy, why not suggest a set of rules you think would work better rather than the personal attacks against BP?

"attacks against BP"
I'm not attacking BP, I play it, I've played just about every set of rules Rick Priestly has written since 1977, anyone remember Reaper?

But let's look at what the OP is asking
He wants to play solo and use about 150, 28mm figures in total on a small (4 x 4?) table.
He asks if a rule set designed for 2 or more players using about 1500, 28mm figures in total on a large 6 x 12 or bigger table, where the emphasis is on having a few mates round, a few beers and good craque, is suitable.
He also answers his own question with this statement
"From what I have seen and read Black Powder has lots of miniatures, big club games on larger tables."
Then asks for opinions with
"How does it handle a smaller game / table or solo."
My first answer telling him that the way to do BP in a small game is use smaller figures with move and shooting rates suitably reduced is still the best (only) answer on this thread and that answer comes from experience, it wasn't made up on the spot, although I will admit I can appear a bit flippant in text occasionally
As to rules recommendation, I can't because
I don't, nor would I even consider playing a miniatures game solo,
I/we use a lot more than 150 figures in a game
If I'm not playing competitively, then IMO the craque is the most important part of the gaming experience, however if you play solo I can't see how you would get any of the craque.
Everyone else is telling him to modify the rules, reading between the lines, all the mods appear to be collaborative efforts and there again how do you collaborate when you play solo.
Anyway I'm finished here now, if the OP wants to buy BP good for him, I'm sure Rick will appreciate it. If the OP wants to play BP with any degree of satisfaction he needs to join a club, then I'm sure he'll appreciate it.

Last word (honest) BP's mechanics are a Warmaster derivative, but the feel and the ethos are pure Warhammer, and anyway Warmaster is only Warhammer for "grown-ups"
and there's no need to shout 6sided

Cheers

He wants to play solo and use about 150, 28mm figures in total on a small (4 x 4?) table.

I am planning to do almost exactly that for the War of 1812. BP is a VERY flexible game engine and works fine for smaller games.

He asks if a rule set designed for 2 or more players using about 1500, 28mm figures in total on a large 6 x 12 or bigger table, where the emphasis is on having a few mates round, a few beers and good craque, is suitable.

Many people have demonstrated that although that was what RP designed BP for, it's successful application is far wider. The key factor is that a unit can have ANY number of figures as long as you can distinguish, standard, large, small and tiny. I know a lot of people with space constraints quite happily play BP with 12 figure standard units. It should be perfectly possible to play BP with as few as FOUR figures in a standard unit!

"From what I have seen and read Black Powder has lots of miniatures, big club games on larger tables."

Not necessarily. See above and a lot of the posts on this thread.

"How does it handle a smaller game / table or solo."

Many answers already given above.

BP's mechanics are a Warmaster derivative, but the feel and the ethos are pure Warhammer,

I really have to disagree with that. Warhammer is decidedly "old school" in that combat is worked out per figure. All BP's mechanics are (like Warmaster) per UNIT. Quite different.

Here we go again
Okay assuming that all the rules fudgery gives something approximating a satisfactory gaming experience, something that I very much doubt.
How does a solo player handle this

"where the emphasis is on having a few mates round, a few beers and good craque"

I've gone and got the book.

Page 2
and finally, let us remember that the ideal accompaniment to the journey may be found in good brandy, fine cigars and the companionship of like-minded enthusiasts"
Page 5
What is needed to play?
Aside from a tolerably brisling upper lip, model army and an opponent similarly provisioned
Page 5 again
Where possible we generally play games with the benefit of a third party or umpire

"12 or 4 figure units"
Well whatever floats your boat, and I'm sure that your 16 figure divisions make an absolutely splendid spectacle on the table top. If your space is that limited why not draw out your units on bits of paper then blue tack them to the wall and use the wall as a table top? (I might be onto something there)

Frankly you're missing the point of the game entirely.

Look at it this way, I like to watch movies, so I can go and get a box in the local multiplex with a group of friends and watch on a massive screen with surround sound and have drinks and snacks served by the staff in warm comfortable environment, or I can watch it on my phone, tiny screen that I need to hold, while standing in a shop doorway, at night, while it's cold and raining.
Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should do it.

"I really have to disagree with that. Warhammer is decidedly "old school" in that combat is worked out per figure. All BP's mechanics are (like Warmaster) per UNIT. Quite different."
Yeah per unit really old school. As you missed the point of the game it doesn't surprise me that you've also missed the feel of it as well.

But it's your time and money, you waste it as you want.

and finally, let us remember that the ideal accompaniment to the journey may be found in good brandy, fine cigars and the companionship of like-minded enthusiasts

Note that it says "ideal" not "essential". A good drink is a fine accompaniment to a game for a solo gamer. I don't smoke so I'll forget the cigars!

Aside from a tolerably brisling upper lip, model army and an opponent similarly provisioned

Got a model army – several in fact. Don't need an opponent for solo play although I'm told that mild schizophrenia can help! Also, I don't have to finish the game before last orders at the pub, these days I enjoy a leisurely solo game when I can.

Where possible we generally play games with the benefit of a third party or umpire

Note that it says "where possible" not "you have to".

If your space is that limited why not draw out your units on bits of paper then blue tack them to the wall and use the wall as a table top? (I might be onto something there)

Clearly you have never experienced constraints of space. If you had you would understand perfectly what I and others are talking about

Frankly you're missing the point of the game entirely.

Not at all. The point of the game is to have fun playing games based on the black powder period of history. That is what I and others do and I presume you do as well.

Yeah per unit really old school.

What other "old school" rules resolve combat by unit?

But it's your time and money, you waste it as you want.

I have definitely not wasted either my time or my money. BP is a great game that can provide a satisfying gaming experience in all sorts of different ways. I'm sorry you seem to be so narrow minded about it.

Solo: BP lends itself to solo play well. The command system is unpredictable so if you miss a command roll for a unit in the brigade, that brigade is done for the turn. So you play "do your worst" to the other side and you still won't be able to "do your worst" all the time.

Small amounts of units: This is doable as well. Do not allow group moves and you can play a single brigade vs a single brigade. That is essentially what your example is.

Hope that helps,

John

Well,

Thanks for all the info, my mind is racing (lol).

cheers

ps: I don't think my wife would like the idea about using her walls as a battlefield with glued paper units.

For the above mention Taviers example how about using (for rule mechanics) each of my Dutch battalions as brigades under the rules. The Colonels of the Regiment would be the Brigade Commanders.

As per CPBelt's post above.

Im somewhat baffled by Mr chocolate's somewhat severe adherence to the Blackpowder rules, he seems to want to stick to all of them to the letter, including the cigars and brandy bit, but strangely having no truck whatsoever with the one about BP being a toolkit, a game where you can freely adjust the stats, ranges, unit sizes and special rules (whilst keeping the framework they all exist within the same) in order to adapt the game to your own collection, space and playing style, which would seem to the one most pertinent to the OP.

Anyway. BP is very maleable, Just by changing ranges and throwing in a couple of special rules (though I tend to keep stats the same) and amending the standard unit size I play WSS (28mm, often solo with 20 or so units aside each of 12infantry/5cavalry, halving moves and ranges for smaller tables) Napoleonics (15mm, dozens of battalions of 25-30figs and 28mm, a small number of battalions with 30+ figs again halving ranges and moves), AZW (28mm, either battalions of 24 figs or if I want more units I reduce the standard to 12figure companies. Moves and Ranges unaltered.) and WW1 (28mm, where 8 figs represents a platoon and are "brigaded" together to form companies, with a dozen or more such platoons aside, move distances halved, weapons ranges unaltered). I also include Daleks in my game.

I consider Chocolates approach to be too straightjacketed. One of BPs best qualities is the ability to tweak the variables without ill effect.

Mike's got it right.

I'm using reduced numbers in my units, as well (8/16/24 for infantry and 4/8/12 for cavalry) for sake of table space. I'm also using my own sort of fiction as the setting for my Black Powder games, so the toolkit aspect works perfectly.

I can't help but wonder if Chocolate was only in this thread to take the [urine] out of the game and the other posters, really.

Good news,

My lovely wife has agreed to give a bigger room as a man cave, hence a bigger table.

I am going to try BP and have also ordered LAoK for the 18th Century.

Thanks for all the helpful comments and constructive criticisms.

Cheers