Stewbags | 05 Dec 2012 4:43 p.m. PST |
Some pals are putting together samurai armies and ever the black sheep i thought a Korean force would be an interesting opponent. With limited google fu application i have come to the (possibly misguided) conclusion that in the absence of a dedicated range (that i can find) samurai and ashigaru with some Chinese artillery and nomadic horse should work as proxy in 15mm. Anyone out there with any strong opinions or good advice for me? If i do decide to go for it i will do far more research but if i will not be able to put together a satisfactory army of proxies with a little work if needed then it is a non starter and i will direct my limited time elsewhere. |
Oh Bugger | 05 Dec 2012 4:46 p.m. PST |
Old Glory have Koreans in 15mm. They look fine. |
Ashurman | 05 Dec 2012 5:04 p.m. PST |
Grumpy have most of the Artillery, which is the main lack in Old Glory. As I recall there are some others, what you want are sometimes termed Yi Korean, others I think Chosun
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Rudysnelson | 05 Dec 2012 5:13 p.m. PST |
Since I worked on the Koreans for the FoG books, I agree that the Koreans by Old Glory 15s will work. They are in the smaller 24 count packs unlike the European Ren which is in the 48 count bags. many of the Koreans can be used for the Later Koryo troops when Yi switched sides. Old Glory just released the Ming Chinese as well. I just got some stock into the store. That may be the range where they will release artillery. Quartermaster UK has some Korean artillery (the box arrow/rocket launcher) |
Rudysnelson | 05 Dec 2012 5:16 p.m. PST |
It will not let me edit. That is Quartermaster USA out of VA which makes Falcon UK that has a small Korean line. |
skinkmasterreturns | 05 Dec 2012 7:15 p.m. PST |
OG stated awhile back they werent doing any artillery for the Ming.I got mine from the Kennington 15mm range several years ago,both the handheld rockets and the carts.Grumpy has the handheld type,but I havent seen any other source for the heavier carts,not that I've looked lately. |
listlurker | 05 Dec 2012 11:39 p.m. PST |
You can get Grumpys in the Uk via East Riding Miniatures. They are very jolly, I like them. link Cheap, SOA discount, fast
What's not to like ? :-) Thanks Simon |
listlurker | 05 Dec 2012 11:41 p.m. PST |
Beware.. The Koreans will have a hard time against the Japs in FoG:R
Build those walls high! :-) |
skinkmasterreturns | 06 Dec 2012 6:06 a.m. PST |
I like the Grumpy cannon.The barrel has an authentic Chinese feel to it. I've got some photos of Ming guns that I snapped at the Great Wall. I'd be willing to bet that Koreans had similar guns,if not outright Chinese models.For a later period,European style guns would be available,as the Portuguese were casting them,presumably for sale. |
mad monkey 1 | 06 Dec 2012 7:55 a.m. PST |
Who would work best with Two Dragon Samurai? |
ancientsgamer | 06 Dec 2012 9:55 a.m. PST |
Sounds like the next line for Khurasan? Really a great and colorful army. Cue the master from Remo Williams
. |
Rudysnelson | 06 Dec 2012 10:01 a.m. PST |
It was colorful during the Three Kigdom era when every feudal lord outfitted his own force. By the Yi period, the introduction of confucism regulated the colors worn by different classes. So the color disipatted. More color remained among the noble cavalry that the infantry. |
ancientsgamer | 06 Dec 2012 12:27 p.m. PST |
Yes Rudy, but that never stopped me from taking some artistic license :-) |
Rudysnelson | 06 Dec 2012 1:51 p.m. PST |
That is why I composed DBA armies for all of the armies up to the YI army. I will have to check and see if i have any left. LOL! I put some excess packs on Ebay. maybe I need to take them and make another DBA Koryo or Yi Army as well as some Samurai. Hmmm I have not thought about a Ming DBA army, I will have to pull out the book and check. My next shows are not until January so I have time. LOL |
Stewbags | 06 Dec 2012 2:13 p.m. PST |
I have played fogr pike and musket, nothing else. Why will the koreans have probs with the samurai? I will have to borrow the book from my buddy, though he may refuse until i finish at least one army
. |
Uesugi Kenshin | 06 Dec 2012 2:35 p.m. PST |
OG are indeed very nice and as stated are only missing artillery & monks. |
listlurker | 06 Dec 2012 5:06 p.m. PST |
Why will the koreans have probs with the samurai? The Korean have 1 compulsary poor foot unit (10 bases), and 1/3 of the other foot units have to be poor. The foot is average at best.. a couple of superior religious type that are unprotected sword (real bad against the Samurai armoured spear). The main foot BGs are 1/2 HW , 1/2 Arq (or bow)
really not a great unit type , neither fish nor fowl. With a 3" range you will only get 1 shot with the ArQ before the Samurai charge(4"). The Korean cavalry is average too ( 1 guard unit being superior). They are bow/sword. The Samurai cav will eiter be bow/sword and light lance/sword and always superior. Typically the Korean amry won't be much bigger and the Samurai can take the 6 poor spear units to bump up the army size
That sort of thing ;-) you can get a lot of FF in the list !! Lots of negatives there! Here are some positives. Get the cool turltle ships. Get a good PBI to win and get a WW. Make that flank a valley of death. Then you can crowd the other flank. The Samurai warriors will not want to go into that zone and if they do they will suffer
its a challenging matchup – fun though |
Khusrau | 07 Dec 2012 3:09 a.m. PST |
Not sure, but Touller also do Koreans
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Rudysnelson | 07 Dec 2012 5:20 a.m. PST |
Khusrau, I think he did the Koreans which allied with the Mongols (Koryo) |
Rudysnelson | 07 Dec 2012 1:00 p.m. PST |
By the way the Korean Gurillas can be used as Chinese and Japanese pirates/peasants too. |
Stewbags | 07 Dec 2012 5:19 p.m. PST |
Thanks guys, still learning fogr, just strikes me that with 3 mates getting a samurai army i would like to look elsewhere for something a bit different. I dont realy know the history of the period so cant realy comment on the matchup. I hope that the samurai have not recieved the ivory tower treatment like romans, french naploionics and nazis often seem to get
. |
Stewbags | 07 Dec 2012 5:19 p.m. PST |
Oh and thanks for the OG pointer as well. |
Skeptic | 07 Dec 2012 7:37 p.m. PST |
I'm not sure whether OG15 Korean Guerillas would be all that suitable for Chinese or Japanese – they are in rather Korean-looking costume
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Rudysnelson | 07 Dec 2012 8:47 p.m. PST |
The Korean Pagi looks like the pirate crews in illustrations. Chinese and Japanese had Koreans in their crews. The Korean ones that raided Mongol-Koryo ports were almost all Korean. You may be right about the peasants. I will take another look at them and their simple dress. |
Skeptic | 08 Dec 2012 6:49 a.m. PST |
@Rudy: Which 15mm figures would you recommend for earlier (e.g. Koryo, Silla, or earlier) Koreans? |
Rudysnelson | 08 Dec 2012 8:20 a.m. PST |
A little prejudice. Like Eureka, Falcon UK before and under Kai at Quartermaster had a sponsorship program. I paid to have a range of Three Kingdom Koreans made. Simple and small range which I had in size and style based on their Mongol range. The foot castings include a standard bearer with a hanging banner, an officer which could double as a dismounted armored cavalryman, an archer + a spearman in the feather cap, an archer and a spearman in a viking style conical leather or metal helmet which popular. (One has a tri-spear and the other a one clade spear.) I recently sent him a peasant with pike and a Monk with a javeline and shield in top hat which I had sculpted later. In the cavalry I had the Heavy Cavalry with a lance, the Cataphract with lance and the wind sock on the back, Light regular horse archer, the irregular cavalry can be taken from the Mongol range. You can use some of the Old Glory castings as long as you stay away from the brim cap. Some cavalry will work too. I will have to look at them again but they do not have cataphracts. |
Rudysnelson | 08 Dec 2012 8:21 a.m. PST |
Yes they are still available. I saw Kai at several different conventions last year. |
Skeptic | 08 Dec 2012 9:13 a.m. PST |
Thanks again, Rudy! Re. the OG15 armored Korean (Yi Dynasty) infantry, do they represent dismounted cavalry? I couldn't find any obvious unit type in the DBM or FoGR lists that would match them. Finally, it would be great if somebody were to author a book on Medieval Korean Armies for Osprey
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Rudysnelson | 08 Dec 2012 9:39 a.m. PST |
That is what they look like to me. Send me an email at scottnelson@bellsouth.net and I will send you a draft transcript of our Three Kingdoms Korea book. Still have to find a good artist. |
Wulfgar | 08 Dec 2012 9:50 a.m. PST |
Stewbags, If your friends are doing Sengoku era Japanese, you would need Joseon,(or Choseon) era Koreans to match them. These are sometimes referred to as Yi era. At any rate, the Koreans who defended their homes against the Japanese during the Imjin War were denizens of the late 16th and early 17th century. If you are needing resources for collecting and painting troops, there are two common and easy to obtain sources helpful to wargamers: 1) Hideyoshi's Korean Invasion by Brian Bradford. Its available from Brian on E-bay, and his service is very fast and efficient. The book is oriented for his own "Killer Katanas" rule set, but the background information on the structure of the armies and uniforms is not to be found in other English language sources. Bradford also describes the campaigns and battles in great detail. 2) The Samurai Invasion of Korea, by Stephen Turnbull is an invaluable overview of the Imjin War, also describing the background, campaigns, and battles. Turnbull also covers the costume and organization of the Koreans, though to a lesser extant than Bradford. Turnbull probably served, however, as one of Bradford's sources, and the two authors have been in contact with each other. There are not, at this time, an abundance of books in English which detail the Imjin War. With the rise of K-pop and the Korean economy this may change in the future. In the meantime, these are your best sources. The available figure lines have been accurately described above. However, I would not make purchases of troops until I had one or both of the above sources in order to make efficient purchases. I hope this helps. |
Stewbags | 09 Dec 2012 3:25 p.m. PST |
Btw, my Korean intrest is driven by several years of tae kwon do and in no way anything to do with k-pop. Just saying is all
. |
Wulfgar | 09 Dec 2012 9:39 p.m. PST |
@Killerkatanas Thanks, Brian, for coming in on this. I was hoping you might. Your book is excellent. @Stewbags I enjoy k-pop, and I'm not insecure about saying so. Also, Korean dramas, espeicially the historical ones, are pretty darn good. I was merely suggesting that as the world grows more familiar with Korean culture, it might be possible to obtain more references in English than are now available. And yes, you're welcome for the advice on the sources. |
Uesugi Kenshin | 11 Dec 2012 12:26 p.m. PST |
@Brian Bradford, whats the name of the book by Swoop that you refer to? |
clibinarium | 11 Dec 2012 1:42 p.m. PST |
Its probably this one; A Dragon's Head and a Serpent's Tail: Ming China and the First Great East Asian War, 1592-1598 Kenneth Swope, ISBN 0806140569 I'm reading it at the moment. |
Uesugi Kenshin | 11 Dec 2012 1:53 p.m. PST |
Thanks Clib! Ive actually got that one. I was hoping he might have written another one ;-) If I can make another rec' for anyone interested check out "The Book of Corrections". Very good read. link |
clibinarium | 11 Dec 2012 7:29 p.m. PST |
I know what you mean, I'd like to see him write a book or even just an article on the detail of Ming organization, armament and dress. I suppose that's of limited interest to an academic though. |
Uesugi Kenshin | 11 Dec 2012 8:59 p.m. PST |
1 more for the reading list fellas: link |
sgawara84 | 20 Dec 2012 8:23 a.m. PST |
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clibinarium | 20 Dec 2012 8:31 a.m. PST |
Link doesn't work for me, seems to want me to sign in (that's a guess since I can't read Korean script), and although I can see the page head and side menus there's no content displayed on the page. I'd really like to see those units ;-) |
Uesugi Kenshin | 20 Dec 2012 2:11 p.m. PST |
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Stewbags | 20 Dec 2012 4:13 p.m. PST |
Ha, not being judgemental about k-pop but as a scout leader and father of 4 i am kind of sick of ?gang nam style?. Every child i spend time with seems to find it impossible to not sing it
. The expansion of interest in the culture of Korea can only be a good thing i agree
.. |