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"NATO Platoon TOE Down to the squad level " Topic


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Drdaniel5510 Nov 2012 2:24 a.m. PST

Greetings, I'm looking into using the Force on Force rules for some World War III gaming but I'm having trouble finding the TOEs I need. the lowest level I've been able to find is company, but for Force on Force I need to get down to the level of individual soldiers.

Their book has excellent info on the US, USSR, and Britain but is really lacking on info about West Germany, Benelux, The Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, and France.

Any Help would be greatly appreciated.

Personal logo Doms Decals Sponsoring Member of TMP10 Nov 2012 2:56 a.m. PST

What sort of date? I can find West Germany at least, but they changed a bit with time.

Waco Joe10 Nov 2012 5:35 a.m. PST

Are you a member of the TO&E Yahoo Group? They have several of those nations in their Modern Files.

link

whoa Mohamed10 Nov 2012 7:39 a.m. PST

These can be found in the FonF book "Cold War Gone Hot" and also on the AAG forum…..Mikey

Tgunner10 Nov 2012 11:02 a.m. PST

You might have some luck here in the FonF forum for TO&Es

link

Cincinnatus10 Nov 2012 11:17 a.m. PST

The Firepower game by AH likely had what you are looking for. I'm not in a position to get to my game right now but that's where I'd look if someone else has it handy.

Sparker10 Nov 2012 12:37 p.m. PST

I doubt you can go wrong with 6-10 men with SLR/G3 and an M60/GPMG per squad up until the late 80's, then assault rifles and 2 x Squad Automatic Weapons up until the Gulf War, when reality bit and the SAW's were rapidly replaced with heavier GPMGs again…..

(Jake Collins of NZ 2)10 Nov 2012 2:23 p.m. PST

AH Firepower lists:
WGerman PzGren Squad 1971-80: 1xMG3, 1xPzF44, 5xG3 (dismounted from Marder)

WGerman Jaeger or Mtn Inf Squad: 1xMG3, 1xPzF44, 7xG3.

Belgian Armoured Infantry Squad 70s: 2xBAR, 6xGarand (dismount from AMX-VCI)
1982 on: 2xFAL LMG, 6xFAL rifle (dismount from YPR AIFV)

French Mech Infantry Squad 1971 on: 1xAAT52 LMG, 1xSTRIM-F1 rkt lchr, 6xsemi auto rifle, 1xsub machinegun (dismount from AMX10P)

French Marine Squad (1970 on): 1xAAT52 LMG, 2xSTRIMF1, 7xriflemen

French Para Squad (1980 on): 1xAAT52 LMG, 1xSTRIMF1 rkt lchr, 8xriflemen

Netherlands Armd Inf Squad 1978 on: 1xMG3, 1xFAL LMG, 6xFAL riflemen (dismount from YPR)

Norwegian Reserve Infantry Squad: 1xBAR, 1xSuper Bazooka,7xbolt action rifles, 1xsub machinegun.

Norwegian Infantry Squad: 1xMG3, 1xCarl Gustav, 7xG3 riflemen, 1xsub machinegun.

Norwegian Mech Inf Squad: 1xMG3, 1xCarl Gustav, 6xG3 (dismount from M113)

HobbitHoghton11 Nov 2012 9:01 a.m. PST

Whatever the paper strength it is probably realistic to then deduct 20%+ of the personel especially if your scenario/setting is taking place after the outbreak of war.

Cincinnatus11 Nov 2012 9:24 a.m. PST

That may depend on the scenario and the SOP of the unit. It's possible for a squad to be down a few guys on their roster but brought up to strength for a patrol by assigning other men from the unit. For example, you might see a commo guy sent out from the HQ section to fill out a patrol. At the level of a company in a combat unit, most everyone really still is a rifleman. Probably much less likely to see that happen above the company level though.

Drdaniel5511 Nov 2012 1:14 p.m. PST

Thank you everyone, this is more than enough info to get me going. Not sure why I didn't check the FoF forums…..

Drdaniel5513 Nov 2012 10:31 p.m. PST

Sorry to Dig this back up again but The TOE Yahoo group and the Fire and Fury Orbats didn't go down to the level I was hoping. Collins355 or Cincinatus, could you tell me how many squads are in a platoon? also could you tell me about the Platoon and Company HQ? (or point me to where I can find it)

Personal logo Doms Decals Sponsoring Member of TMP14 Nov 2012 5:07 a.m. PST

I'll repeat my earlier question; what year? There's not much point digging through references for stuff only to get "oh, I was looking for a different decade"…. ;-)

Drdaniel5514 Nov 2012 2:12 p.m. PST

Sorry, Around 1986. Give or take depending if you have data for that time.

Cincinnatus14 Nov 2012 5:27 p.m. PST

My reference material for that period (other than the Firepower game) would just be for the US and USSR. Basically old army literature.

I'd just be guessing on the rest of the stuff but you probably wouldn't be too far wrong if you went with:

- 3 squads per platoon,
- a PLT HQ section with an officer and senior NCO, possibly a couple of extra guys but even if on the TOE, probably the first guys to get sent to fill out the squads when they get short.
- No guess on Company HQ because that could really vary.

Again, just guesses. Someone else may know better.

Personal logo Doms Decals Sponsoring Member of TMP15 Nov 2012 2:02 a.m. PST

West German Panzer Grenadier company:

In all cases I've put 7 men per squad, but it could be 6 they cut the size with the move from the Marder 1A1 to the 1A2, which I think was partially rolled out by '86. Either way, the basic organisation was Heeresstruktur 4.

CHQ Marder, 7 men, including company commander, 1 MG3, possibly 1 Panzerfaust 44. May also include an attached Redeye SAM launcher. (A flak regiment had 36 Gepards and 216 (yes, 216….) Redeyes, so there were plenty to dole out….)

Reserve Section Marder, 7 men, 1 MG3, 1 Granatpistole, 2 Panzerfaust 44, 1 G3 SG1.
(The granatpistole is a 40mm grenade launcher, kind of like a rather compact folding stock M79. It was officially issued to the squad leader, but usually farmed out to one of the riflemen.)

Platoon (x3)
Marder, 7 men including platoon CO, 1 MG3, 1 Granatpistole, 2 Panzerfaust 44, 1 G3 SG1 (scoped) as well as standard rifles.
2 Marders, each 7 men, 1 Milan, 1 MG3, 1 Granatpistole, 2 Panzerfaust 44, 1 G3 SG1.

Total for the company was 11 Marders, with 6 Milan launchers. I think the Carl Gustav had been withdrawn from panzer grenadier units by '86 earlier it had been issued to sections that didn't have a Milan launcher, but I *think* it was dropped when the Milan went from one to two launchers per platoon. Light infantry formations were still using it though, so it might still be knocking around, in which case the 3 platoon leaders' sections and the reserve section would have one, but not the company commander's section.

If the battalion was in a panzergrenadier brigade, its third company was M113 equipped instead of Marder. M113 squads had 8 or 9 dismounts rather than the 6 or 7 in a Marder section. Personal weapons were the same as in the Marder company, except that platoon commanders' vehicles may also carry Milan, for 9 launchers in the company rather than 6. (There was a gradual increase in Milan issue throughout the '80s, with the M113 companies getting first issue on extras to compensate for their vulnerability compared to Marder units.) There was no reserve section in an M113 company, so 10 vehicles rather than 11.

Personal logo Doms Decals Sponsoring Member of TMP15 Nov 2012 6:58 a.m. PST

Belated PS looking up the Carl Gustav issue it seems to have gradually "faded" from service, being kept for illumination use well into the '90s, but no longer used for AT work from the late '80s. One chap said his company still had 3 of them when he joined up in '89, but no ammunition…. For '86 they'd still have the launchers, and probably ammunition too at that stage ('87 seems to have been the last year of use in the AT role), so I'd give them to the platoon HQ sections, and maybe the reserve section too (although the chap's saying they had three by '89 leaves a question mark on that one.)

Drdaniel5516 Nov 2012 3:02 p.m. PST

Thanks a bunch, Do you have any info on French TOEs? the Force on Force book doesn't have any info at all, and their's a topic on their forum with a blurb about motorized rifle platoons, but nothing about Mech infantry.

Personal logo Doms Decals Sponsoring Member of TMP17 Nov 2012 2:48 a.m. PST

Afraid not – French I never got down beyond the number of squads in a company – not found it down to that level of granularity, unless I blunder across the old Raids magazine that I know is around somehwere, and had the full breakdown circa 1990 or so, which is at least a starting point….

Personal logo Doms Decals Sponsoring Member of TMP17 Nov 2012 1:43 p.m. PST

Hmm, found that piece, but it only covers the VAB regiments, not the heavy mech in the AMX 10P, who worked to a different TO&E. If that's any use, let me know and I'll copy it out.

Drdaniel5518 Nov 2012 6:03 p.m. PST

Anything would be helpful, thank you.

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