"Staghound use in Guards Armored 44-45" Topic

I am continuing my work on the Guards Armored Division in Northwest Europe 44-45. A friend recently gave me 2 FOW kits of the Staghound which I have put together. Holdings of the 21st Army Group in June 45 show Guards Armored with 20 Staghound. I know these would be used in HQ units but does anyone know how these 20 were parcelled out in the Guards Armored?

BTW usually game Rapid Fire where each model equals 5 real vehicles and though I doubt very much any one element had as many as 5 can always justify adding a model in as reprentational.

As always, ahead of time, many thanks.

Greetings

Have you seen link ?

This indicates that the Staghounds would have been with 2 Household Cavalry and that 'normal' allocation within an armoured car regiment was (excluding AA cars) 3 in RHQ and 4 in each of 4 Squadron HQs = 19 cars.

Regards

Edward

Yes, I have tracked down units such as the New Zealanders and Canadians who had troops of Staghounds but as I mentioned doing the Guards Armored Division and wondering what elements in that Divsion they were assigned to so I can work on proper markings for them.

But thanks for the link

The armoured car regiments were formally re-adopted into the armoured divisions at the end of the war, so 2 HCR was then on the strength of Guards Armoured Division, whereas they had previously belonged to VIII Corps.

2 HCR had two to four Staghounds in each squadron (4 squadrons), plus a few in RHQ. They may also have received some Staghound AAs.

Staghounds were also occasionally found as HQ liaison cars in division and brigade tactical HQs – some of these were of the turretless, open-topped type.

they have 21 in Dec 1944

link

have fun …

Yes, it's 2 HCR again. The armoured car regiments were attached directly to the armoured divisions from roughly September 1944 onwards, so are listed as being on-strength from that time. However, they weren't formally a part of those divisions until right at the end of the war. 2 HCR remained formally a part of VIII Corps, even though it was assigned permanently to Guards AD from September 1944 onwards and often served under other Corps. This was basically due to war establishment and theoretical organisations failing to keep pace with tactical realities.

Note that most of the Corps get another armoured car regiment at the end of the war – this is due to regiments such as 14/20th Hussars redeploying from the Med to Germany immediately after the war (hence why VIII Corps loses its armoured cars in 1944 (due to losing 2 HCR to Guards AD), only to get more in June 1945).

First my apolgies, I see what you are saying now Edward.

As always my thanks for all the help. So it would seem that unless I wish to do 2 HCR there were not Staghounds (with 37mm turret) allocated to Guards Armored. I had visions of perhaps some assigned for commanders use say in the Regimental HQs.

Now, not to push my luck, but does anyone have a link to markings for 2 HCR during the period it was assigned to the Guards Division? Curious if in this case they would have adopted/used the Division symbol as part of those markings.

By the way R Mark Davies your earlier answer to me where you provided complete markings for the units of the Division has been invaluable and between your kind contribution and a healthy dose of Dom's Decals Guard Armored Division is coming along very nicely!

You're welcome! Just don't forget to put those lovely VIII Corps charging knights on your armoured cars and not the Guards Eye. :o)

A brief history of 2 HCR

PDF link

Details :)

link

Always amazed at the support fellow gamers provide but then it is our hobby and who else do we have to talk to about this!

I also managed to find a photo of Lt Col Smith, commmander of the 2 HCR, in the turret of his vehicle in Belgium in the Concord #7069 British Armor in Northwest Europe Volume 1: Normandy to Arnhem. On the left fender (as you face the vehicle) can clearly see the AOS green over blue square with 44 in white on it and a white bar on top. Below that is what appears to be the bridging circle. The right fender is obscured unfortunately but believe that is most likely where the charging knight would be. I know the white bar below the AOS indicated Army asset and assume (dangerous word) that above indicated a Corps asset?

Yes, the white bar across the top indicated a corps asset. Diagonal stripes indicated Army Group or Lines of Communicaation assets, depending on which diagonal.

Not to beat a dead horse but recently came across these pictures of a Staghound in Guards markings. Now I know that some in museums dont get the color or markings right but I still can not find any reference in unit OBs to any Staghounds directly assigned to Guards. Is this a case of adding the markings to 2 HCR when it should have the charging knight?

As always many thanks.

Hi Marc,

Yes, you'e got it right. The restoration and reenactment fraternity seem to love putting 'cool' armoured division formation signs on their armoured cars, regardless of historical fact.

As has been discussed above, the '44' serial with white bar above is only relevant to a corps armoured car regiment, so to combine that marking with an armoured division formation sign is nonsensical.

Resurrecting an old thread…but I'm also working on a Staghound that would have operated with the Guards Armoured Division in NW Europe.

Does this look like the correct markings for 2nd HCR:

Yep, spot on. The vertical white bar on the turret side is the rarely-seen 'D' Squadron marking (the Manitoba Dragoons instead used a 'Lazy D' with the flat-side downwards – the British Army tended to use that after WW2).

So a Daimler Dingo would also have been in the 2nd HCR rather than in the Guards Armoured Div.?

If I understand this correctly: link

The markings for it would be the same as the Staghound?

Thanks for the help.

Yes, that's right. 2 HCR were semi-absorbed into Guards Armoured Division late in the war, but remained officially an VIII Corps asset and retained the markings for VIII Corps.

Yes, the markings were exactly the same. Armoured Car Troops had a pair of Dingos and a pair of Daimler Armoured Cars. Five such Troops per Squadron, as well as a Heavy Troop with AEC Mk IIIs and a Support Troop in M3A1s. The Staghounds were found in the Squadron HQs (the five-man crew of the Staghound meant that they could carry an extra man as radio operator, which made them useful HQ cars).

That said, you did find the odd Dingo knocking around in senior HQs, but the Humber Scout Car was the normal vehicle found there.