"WWPD goes to NZ..." Topic

link

Yeah…all expenses paid trip to the other half of the world for one week. I'm curious what they are gonna want outta this.

I'm thinking we wont be seeing much of anyone else's stuff on WWPD.

Nah, the lads will keep those Battlefront bastards honest. Good on them. Who would say no to that trip.

^ Yeah I highly doubt that.

all expenses paid trip

That will increase the show's objectivity.

This is normally how these things go…I've seen it all the time. You get popular, and eventually someone will try to snatch you up in that popularity.

Anyone notice there hasn't been any battlefront podcasts lately?

This is normally how these things go

But isn't that the textbook definition of "sellout": sacrificing artistic integrity merely to become rich and famous? (in the micro-celebrity sense)

Pretty much.

Damn shame, people used to go to them to get away from the heavy moderating on the BF forum, and have a chance to speak their mind's. I'm kinda wondering how long before they crack down on anti-bf there as well.

I'd say it's more along the lines of press junket.

Typical gamers-- pronounce doom before anyone has done anything to deserve it. Why not wait until they do all these allegedly horrible things before you crucify these guys?

Good on them for doing something constructive on the web that got them a trip to NZ.

"succulent lamb"

I refuse to comment on the grounds it will get me another 7 days in the cooler

TT, you're awesome.

C'mon 7 days in the cooler is totally worth it.

Dale man I can sure catch that baseball

pronounce doom before anyone has done anything to deserve it

The one thing D6G never fails to mention is any conflict of interest they have, like with Spartan Games. The fact that i remember they have one, but can't recall WWPD ever saying so, means D6G is doing it right.

Perhaps WWPD could increase their journalistic integrity.

I really only see possibilities from this:

They become the BF propaganda factory in December (after the trip). I really wouldn't be surprised if at any time, someone says "yeah..we'd like to see less PSC/PP and more BF." Steve claims that isn't going to happen, but November isn't too far away. I mean c'mon you don't fly someone half way around the world just to give people a look at how a company works…that could easily be done with a guy with a video camera.

Sure it's speculation right now, but I'm really curious to see what December holds for them.

Wow, Gott. Need some rope? Navigating that slippery slope must be pretty difficult.

Nope, navigating it just fine.

Wow…. I am out of the loop…. I hadn't heard that at all.

Well… we'll see where the chips fall. In all honesty, I have been very busy preparing for Fall-In and being there for my wife while she has the baby.

Now… my opinion on WWPD… I go there before any other Battlefront site… it is for the objectivity and honesty. They have a great thing….

I'll be very curious to see what they say at Fall-IN!

Go TEAM!

I really only see possibilities from this:
They become the BF propaganda factory in December (after the trip).

It's an unlikely outcome. I fully expect the #1 WWPD rule, "Say anything you want at WWPD , but don't be a d1ck" to still be applied. I expect to see no halt of favorable reviews of non-BF options for FoW on WWPD. I still see the WWPD crew calling out BF and FoW shortcomings just as they have been doing. I don't know the fellas at WWPD personally, but it's clearly not their style to be lap dogs as is being assumed by many here.

Why would anyone expect WWPD to abandon what has brought them fame and success in the first place? If WWPD only gave you what you got on the BF forums, podcast, etc then WWPD never would have taken off. The minute that they don't provide a viable objective venue for FoW discussion and information is when they start to fade into oblivion. I think we can give the WWPD a little more credit here on intelligence at least, if not for the integrity that they continuously display.

They become the BF propaganda factory in December (after the trip).

"After the trip?" You'd expect to see a halt to favorable reviews of non-BF products NOW if this were correct! Surely Steven would not want to risk losing his "Golden Ticket" over the next month, if he was a shallow as the accusations that are being thrown out here, now would he? What if you saw a WWPD review posted in the coming week or so that was critical of a BF product and recommend a competitor's product for a similar item over it? What would that do to change your perspective? You might just find that you are actually just as biased as you are trying to claim WWPD is?

It's simple. WWPD is objective; it has to be to have any value. Being a simple echo chamber of BF has NO value and would not draw membership and participation AWAY from the official BF venue. If they ever did drift that way, then some other group of guys or an individual would start a new venue and take over the spot of prominence as "THE" objective FoW venue that WWPD currently holds for an ever increasing membership.

Congrats to them. And the negativity here sure makes some gamers come across as petty and hateful. Not sure if it's true, however that's just my impression.

So VonBurge, why would you fly someone half way around the world then?

You seem to be so quick to poke holes in my thoughts, without offering ANY speculation on why he'd go down there.

A friend of mine pointed out, battlefront bought Wargames Illustrated, sure it's got a touch of battlefront, but it's not blasting battlefront at all.

It's pretty obvious they are great at delivering messages, they have a great presence, whilst the BF podcast crew are pretty dry.

So here is a more "rational" thought. BF buys out WWPD and turns them into the Wargames Illustrated of Podcasts.

So VonBurge, why would you fly someone half way around the world then?

I expect that it's somewhat in appreciation for the promotion of FoW that generally occurs at WWPD, despite the fact that the WWPD crew and forum does point out negative issues with BF and its products when they feel it's justified and are more than willing to post favorable reviews of competing 15mm WWII gaming products. Additionally BF is likely expecting that they will get some good press out of it even if WWPD continues with the pointing out flaws and highlight non-BF products in their reviews…which they will!

You seem to be so quick to poke holes in my thoughts, without offering ANY speculation on why he'd go down there.

I did not see an explanation for the invite being required to illustrate the fact if what you were proposing was the truly the case that it would be detrimental to WWPD in the long run. Separate issues if you're not hung up on some sort of conspiracy theory.

A friend of mine pointed out, battlefront bought Wargames Illustrated, sure it's got a touch of battlefront, but it's not blasting battlefront at all.

And of course we'd not expect BF to blast themselves in a publication they own…BUT YET they still are more than willing to allow advertisements from competing game company products and articles about competing game systems.
Yep they own WI. That's completely out in the open. So would we not expect a WWPD buyout, if that was underway, to be public?

It's pretty obvious they are great at delivering messages, they have a great presence, whilst the BF podcast crew are pretty dry.

WWPD's frequency is certainly better than BF's and the US WWPD team may be more agreeable with a US audience to be sure. But it's the simple honest gamer's view that these guys generally adhere to that makes their podcast interesting and popular. It's not like they are THAT entertaining. They certainly are not broadcast professionals now are they? If "less dry" and "more frequency" is what you want and you have BF's money why bother with an amateur outfit when you could go professional? Especially if that amateur outfit lost its value as soon as you bought it! Might as well just fix "Radio Free Battle Front."

So here is a more "rational" thought. BF buys out WWPD and turns them into the Wargames Illustrated of Podcasts.

I find that rather irrational. Why buy something that if it only mirrors your own already existing venue will lose its credibility and cause its membership to migrate to some other new venue that does what the one you just bought did previously? It's simple dude. Ask yourself why WWPD became popular in the first place? Then ask what would happen to the membership that came to WWPD as more objective alternative to the BF forums if WWPD effectively turned into a mere extension of the BF forums? Those members, me included, would move on to whatever new site gives us what WWPD used to give us.

BF simply will not offer to buy out WWPD because if WWPD lost its objectivity, it would lose its value, and then they'd have to buy out the next objective venue that came along to replace WWPD as the viable objective alternative venue for FoW discussion and information. That cycle would just continue. I think it's much the same reason why it would do no good for BF to try buy out PSC rather than just compete with them. They'd just get stuck in a never ending cycle where they'd have to buy every new 15mm WWII plastic producer that came a long. It would never end. There would always be a new challenger.

Well mate, we'll see what happens in the end.

I could see BF and WWPD teaming up to do things like the Sealion campaign. Certainly couldn't see WWPD bending over, though.

Plastic Soldier Company here – as a point of fact i am not allowed to advertise in Wargames Illustrated and their staff have been told not to review my products

CATMAN2,

That is very disappointing news. It makes me glad I don't subscribe to WI and it will negatively impact me when I consider buying an off the rack copy from my LGS in the future. When did this policy change occur? I seem to recall that I was first introduced to your great products in the pages of WI.

I did pick up the recent WI 300th Edition and I noted that Skytrex, QRF, and Minairons Miniatures all had adverts in it for 15mm WWII items that compete directly with BF in it. And really over 90% of what's in WI competes with BF if it's some other wargame period, scale, or company that entices me to throw money their way instead of BF.

I am very curious as to why your fine company and products are being singled out for exclusion from WI and if there are others that have this bar laid against them. Clearly Skytrex, QRF, and Minairons Miniatures do not. I suppose some sort of congratulations might due to you if PSC is being perceived as such a significant threat to BF that it warrants this kind of policy. Nonetheless it lowers my opinion of and respect for BF. A sadly recurring theme these day.

You might consider trying advertising on WWPD. They certainly have WSS advertising there, which directly competes with WI, so I see no reason why they'd not be happy to have you on board. It's certainly a big enough venue and has a significant presence in the US FoW community to warrant BF's attention given the BF HQ visit invite which is the subject of this thread. The WWPD crew includes PSC miniatures in their own collections and have favorably included them on spotlights and reviews I believe. You might at least consider sending them some items to review. I'd be very interested to see a review of your new Soviet Artillery Battalions deals there. This certainly would do a lot to confirm/deny people's view of WWPD openness which has been called into question here.

BTW. I'd like to personally thank you for providing such great quality 15mm WW2 items at such a low cost. One of my closest gaming partners was able to get into FoW last year specifically because your Soviet offerings. He took a pay cut last year and he'd not have been able to relatively inexpensively build a force that he can use for EW/MW/LW if it were not for your company…with a little help from Zvezda! ;)

Good luck to you and your company!

VB

Gottmituns205

Well mate, we'll see what happens in the end.

What if in the very near future we see a favorable review of non-BF product that specifically recommends that competing product over the BF version of the same product on the WWPD site? Would we not then be compelled to deduce that that there is indeed some healthy objectivity and general openness on WWPD and that we should expect it to remain a significant aspect of their venue? If what you are speculating about is true, why would we have to wait until the "end?" Would WWPD not immediately shift gears to appease their new masters since that's what you suppose is going on here?

BTW, I submitted such a review some weeks ago which WWPD has accepted and informed me that it has placed in the queue for posting early next week. Standby, I expect that you'll be better informed shortly.

VB

"Plastic Soldier Company here – as a point of fact i am not allowed to advertise in Wargames Illustrated and their staff have been told not to review my products"

WOW, I am not sure what to say.

Truscott Trotter you are cool in my book let me know what you want to post and I will spend that time in the doghouse for ya!
send me a message at ubercraft at yahoo dotcom

Catman2

How many 15mm boxes have you sold/produced to date?

Every box you sell, probably has dropped BF sales by that value at least!..and probably more. Every 15mm ww2 player I know has a least one box!…and every ww2 player I know wants to buy more!

And remember….fiat 626's..You know it makes sense!

"What if in the very near future we see a favorable review of non-BF product that specifically recommends that competing product over the BF version of the same product on the WWPD site?"

They banned someone off their forum for pointing out that the vallejo paints sold singley were cheaper than the FoW rebranded boxd paints version they were recommending

….and is your review and the one on eureka infantry not directly because of the point I made about WWPD never having reviewed any infanry from any other manufacurer ever?

I was most amused that it seemed to be stuff painted a few years ago mixed with some old PP french resistance figures the reviewer could not actually identify…Probabley because those figures are so old, they are no longer available.

BTW, I hope it isn't a review of your PP french…the ones you said on TMP that you would replace with the new battlefront versions to support battlefront…it would not really ring true with your credability to recommend them after saying you would replace them.

BTW, I hope it isn't a review of your PP french…

Indeed the review is of Peter Pig EW French that I choose over BF's similar items and still do.

the ones you said on TMP that you would replace with the new battlefront versions to support battlefront…it would not really ring true with your credibility to recommend them after saying you would replace them.

Even if I did choose to replace them for whatever reason (I have not), it would not necessarily mean that I still could not and would not still recommend PP over BF when it came to EW French Infantry. I think you'd need to find an example of me recommending BF EW French infantry as better overall better choice than the PP EW French Infantry before you start trying to attack my credibility on this issue. You won't, because that's not my opinion on the comparison of the two options and it's an opinion that I was all too happy to share in my review and WWPD is apparently willing to post.

I'm really not sure where you are getting with "the ones you said on TMP that you would replace with the new battlefront versions to support battlefront" It seems you might be taking something out of context here. You might need to review the post again and share the link here so we can see what you're talking about." I'm not exactly sure how you came to the conclusion that I'd buy what I consider to be an inferior product explicitly for the sole purpose to "support battlefront" and then take that as an endorsements when I have always said and continue to say, including in the review I submitted, that the PP option is my recommendation over BF when it comes to EW French Infantry.

They banned someone off their forum for pointing out that the vallejo paints sold singley were cheaper than the FoW rebranded boxd paints version they were recommending

I'm more likely to suspect that if this did occur it was done because of how something was said rather than what was said. Remember the one rule "Don't be a d1ck." I'd be not surprised to see someone claiming that that they were "suppressed" on WWPD rather than admitting they might have just been too much of a douche bag. I'd have to see exactly what was posted before I could accept your analysis of the situation. Of course you could test it yourself. Why not make a post on WWPD showing the cost comparisons and providing links to online providers of individually Vallejo paints? I think much of the WWPD membership would find that rather helpful. Do so politely and see if your post is "axed." If it does you'll have a point to refer to support your argument, if it does not you'll feel better about openness and objectivity at WWPD.

….and is your review and the one on eureka infantry not directly because of the point I made about WWPD never having reviewed any infanry from any other manufacurer ever?
I was most amused that it seemed to be stuff painted a few years ago mixed with some old PP french resistance figures the reviewer could not actually identify…Probabley because those figures are so old, they are no longer available.

Not mine, but like I've been saying if you don't think the reviews you are seeing on WWPD are as good as they could or should be, by all means write and submit some yourself! Many of the reviews at WWPD are submitted by folks outside of the WWPD staff. You can write and submit overall favorable reviews of non-BF products that compete with similar BF products. There are many there now from both the WWPD staff and at large contributors. All you have to do is take some positive action and contribute something of value. That then will leave you something less to gripe about with WWPD.

Plastic Soldier Company here – as a point of fact i am not allowed to advertise in Wargames Illustrated and their staff have been told not to review my products

So other companies that make 15mm products or products that compete with Battlefront can advertise but not you? Are you sure you don't have an advertising bill outstanding or something like that? I would be very surprised if there wasn't more to this story.

"I'm really not sure where you are getting with "the ones you said on TMP that you would replace with the new battlefront versions to support battlefront"

Your post

"As much as I'm a fan of lower cost options, especially for others, and diversity if they did this I'd go out of my way to buy their product and support them. I'd even voluntarily replace my Peter Pig EW French Infantry with those horrible ones BF offers."

on this thread

TMP link

I will say that your review sounds as if it remains consistant wih your statement then so I will admit I was wrong to doubt your integrity.

funny thing is that these are such an old range from PP, if you think that new BF stuff cannot compete with them, BF are in real trouble.

Thanks for the kind offer Petrov but I have taken a vow:
No more comments on BF the company, their rules or products
(after this one) I am going to restrict my comments to moddeling and WWII history only (on all public forums) and get back to enjoying my hobby without the actions of one company and their loyal fans from spoiling MY hobby (not the one BF invented hahaha) that I have enjoyed for 40 years.

And before anyone says I anm becoming a fanboy – I just figred after seeing personally abusive emails from forum admins and BF staff that my message had got through as only the truth hurts that much!

Time to paint some lead dollies and roll some dice.
Also have found several new and interesting rules sets lately so I am already ahead of the curve ball (pun intended)

on this thread

Thanks for taking the time to look that up KevanG. As it was three months ago I could scarcely recall it. Yep, I was and am willing, to replace my PP with BF French Infantry BF for use at official BF events IF BF returns to a totally open miniatures policy again. They have not and so I've not followed through with a replacement. I intended that to be a token demonstration of appreciation, but it has not been deserved yet. If it did happen, don't take that as an endorsement for BF EW French Infantry though, it's just my personal decision to acknowledge in small way BF's return to what should be have been their policy all along by participating in one of their "official" events with an all BF force.

I will say that your review sounds as if it remains consistent with your statement then so I will admit I was wrong to doubt your integrity.

I appreciate that. It's how I wrote it, so hopefully that's how it gets posted.

I just figured after seeing personally abusive emails from forum admins and BF staff that my message had got through as only the truth hurts that much!

Maybe when 1 of these forum,Mods/Admin peoples get hauled up before a judge in court of law,they may think twice about sending threatening/abusive emails ?
LES

Plastic Soldier Company here – as a point of fact i am not allowed to advertise in Wargames Illustrated and their staff have been told not to review my products

Wow, says all I need to know.

Wow, says all I need to know.

We all know that BF has twice printed out thousands of copies of rules for their players – for free. We all know they paid to keep the Table Top Gaming News site running. TTGN runs reviews and stories from plenty of businesses that are in competition with BF. Other 15mm businesses that compete with BF advertise in WI. It makes no sense that they would ban one person from advertising unless they were not paying their bills or had done something to slight BF other the selling a competing product. Think about it.

^ Or has hurt them so badly in the market, they just choose not to allow them anymore ammo to put holes in them?

PSC appears to be a vibrant and growing company given the continuous expansion we see from them in multiple scales. Failure to pay bills might be better associated with a company on the down slide. There could very well be "more to the story" with PSC's exclusion from the pages of WI, but bills/debt issues seems unlikely to be a part of it.

Hopefully CATMAN2 will provide more insights shortly.

Wow is right!!! The waters have sudenly gotten a bit more clear in my book.

I love FOW… I accepted their obscure range scale and their continually changing rules… but now… limiting sanctioned tourneys for BF product alone… sounds a but like the road GW eventually took…

I left GW back in the day because they change too much, too often… And then to keep the market closed to their products alone.. Great for business for them, but not for me…

I made the move to FoW and dropped all GW but LOTR and Mordheim… I do not want to have to dread my choices… I am sure there are studies done, demographs, etc… to determine "when" is the tiem to strike like this… It worked for GW, once they had a hige fan base… I guess BF is no different on their business model.

I do undertsand what BF is doing… I don't have to like it as there are plenty of other people willing to drop bags of cash for their product… I become a worthless number and no longer a valued customer.

I am very curious indeed to see what comes of this with WWPD…. they are really great… one of the main reasons I play FoW.

This thread has taught me a valued lesson: don't give a .

People will do whatever they want to do, let them do it, let them ride it out. You eventually lose love for something when you get worried about what so and so is doing.

Von, I'm sorry if I came off as a dick to you. I do like WWPD and what they've done for the community, but BF's track record is kinda clear, they are like the Borg. They've assimilated GF9/WGI…WWPD could be next.

Would love some more info on the PSC/WGI tid bit.

No problem Gottmituns205, hopefully I've not been too overbearing myself and apologies if I have been. I've been reading your postings for nearly half a decade on the BF Forums, WWPD, here etc we generally see eye-to-eye on most issues as best I can tell.

Though it's not the outcome I expect given the evidence that I've seen, in the end you still could be right and there could be a WWPD buy-out. The good news for you and me is that as soon as that happened, very shortly there would be a new venue launched that doses what WWPD does today. We could shift our presence and participation there if we wish to remain involved with FoW outside of the "Party" venues and WWPD would just become yet another venue that I hardly, if at all, bother with.

If they toss 50K in front of him for a buy out, I wouldn't blame him for not turning it down.

I think the key for them is to stay as close to wwpd as possible, sure have other game systems, but lock out BF's biggest and most dangerous competitor.

I doubt many people would notice the loss of PSC on WWPD. We would, but there are loads more who travel there from the BF forums to wwpd who don't really know who PSC is.

I think it would be a big thing for BF to bring WWPD into line, one BF rep told me that PSC had the boys down south very worried…so if the PSC WGI lockout is true…it would make sense.

I have to remain skeptical of this master plan being reality.

$50,000 USD to buy WWPD? OK that's a start. So then what annual salaries will the WWPD crew get to keep them doing what they've been doing that made WWPD so popular/famous in the first place? What keeps the WWPD dudes from restarting the same thing all over again under a new name (What Would Rommel Do)? OK, maybe the WWPD crew gets a salary, cool. How long does that go on for after the membership at WWPD drops like a rock because they have become nothing more than an echo chamber for BF and are not doing what made them popular to begin with? How long does it take for the next group of amateur gamer dudes to get something going that fulfills the mission and niche that WWPD has now? How much does BF pay the next dudes for their site, what salary do they get? What about the 3rd set of dudes. Hell, maybe I'll get into this myself!!! Set up a site, start a podcast, run it for a year or two and sell it to BF for $50 USDK!

A buy out really seems like a poor short term attempted fix when you start to consider the long term ramifications. Even in the short term to what degree would we expect it to really suppress PSC information (if that's what its all about)? What's the likely pay off? Seems like just about everybody in the FoW world already knows full well who PSC is and where to find their good products. Hell, I'm on their mailing list and just look at KevanG's post above with all the gamers he already knows that have PSC models. A lot of folks in my area do to, and one of my best friends as a collection that's 90% PSC. Not seeing and not hearing about PSC on WWPD will not do much to impact the continued growth of PSC. Only BF providing a superior value product (quality combined with price) can impact PSC's growth just as PSC current superior value (quality combined with price) is likely affecting BF growth now!

You really can't suppress the truth. The more you try the worse it makes you look. Have we not been seeing this "tactic" play out poorly already for BF? The best course of action for BF is to accept the truth and take it head on as a challenge. If PSC is kicking BF's butt, then BF simply needs learn how to "out PSC" PSC. BF is just now starting to come online with plastics themselves. In December they will have an all plastic US Para company boxed set. How competitively will this new set be priced at? Are we seeing the beginning of BF taking on the challenge of PSC on an open field? Is that not better for them (and us) than them attempting artificial means to limit the competition such as BF model quotas at events and controlling media venues which will ultimately backfire on them?

So buying WWPD explicitly to control information about PSC….well BF has done some really dumb things lately…so maybe. But if you (they) look further down range you can see that such a move will be ultimately counterproductive and will not likely be even a speed bump that PSC feels in the short term.

Regarding PSC and WGI, I suspect PSC isn't allowed to advertise due to it being a much more attractive product than Skytrex (i.e. plastic) and are dirt cheap.

They've also got much better distribution (e.g. sold in Maelstrom, Weyland Games etc) and their product is much more easy to make into a mass produced one.

As such they're a direct threat to BF whereas Skytrex, Old Glory, QRF lack the distribution and appeal of plastics.

So, Steven put up a little Q&A about his trip to New Zealand. Some interesting points, and I'll repost a couple here:

"Q. What if Battlefront tries to buy WWPD while you're there?
A. Unlikely, unless they're willing to come up with One Million US in unmarked bills. *cough*.

Q. What if BF leans on you to stop reviewing other manufacturers?
A. I would be unhappy about that. Our independence is important to me- WWPD is my baby after all. I'm sure they'd love to have that deal with us! Why wait for them to lean on me? I'm fairly certain I could cut a deal right now if I wanted to- but I don't. I know that you, the fans, value our independence. Yes, we love Flames of War. You won't see any of our posts going off and frothing at the mouth over the latest brouhaha, but you will not stop seeing other manufacturers on WWPD. (I mean, maybe for the aforementioned One Million US…)

Q. Will you start silencing people on the forum who speak out against BF?
A. Not unless they are breaking our golden rule."

Direct link for those who want to read more:

link

"What keeps the WWPD dudes from restarting the same thing all over again under a new name (What Would Rommel Do)? OK, maybe the WWPD crew gets a salary, cool."

Its called a cease and desist letter.

In fact wwpd would also be susceptable to a cease and desist letter…Formal approval to discuss their product on a public broadcast could be something they consider that they should ask steve to negotiate the rights for.

This would just be like WGI was hit by a cease and desist letter from GW over one of their games after publishing an articvle about a mod on one of their games.

It is in a company's best interest to stop any negative publicity, but on the same note… free speech can only go so far.

Drawing that line, well, that is a job for lawyers to cut those hairs….