"Why so few 28mm 1806 Prussian figures?" Topic

I've been perplexed lately trying to understand why most all of the major figure companies avoid the Prussian/Saxon 1806 period in 28mm? I see that Elite Miniatures, Outland Games (use to be Imperialist owned this line), and Foundry to some point cover this. But why not others? What is it about this particular period in the Napoleonic Wars that the manufacturers are avoiding?

We can get multiple figures for all of the battles the Austrians lost and some for the early battles with the Russians as well but why are the 1806 Prussians neglected? I've sent emails to Calpe and Front Rank. Calpe was nice enough to respond that he wants to cover this period but is so deep into 1813 onwards that he won't get to it for some time (if every is my guess). Front Rank never responded as to why they don't cover it yet they have the French and Austrians covered for 1805. Why not 1806? It would be so simple to add an 1806 Prussian line of figures to compliment the 1805-1807 French they already have? Same thing for Foundry. The early Prussians they have are for the early French Revolutionary Wars so those won't be fit for 1806 use. But given their weight within the 28mm gaming community how come they haven't done it or is that one of their lines they've discontinued over the years?

I see 15/18mm figures out there and I know they are nice but I want this in 28mm, heck even the plastic 1/72nd companies have this covered.

So, again, why is this one piece of the Napoleonic period avoided in 28mm??

Sorry, I cross-posted to the wrong Product Board.

Good question.
I hve no idea.
I have a nice 1806 18mm AB MINIATURES army, so I wouldn't do them in 28mm myself though I suspect many would.

Because they lost?

I think there's a misconception that the 1806 Prussians were just a speed bump, and had no redeeming qualities.

Saber6,

The Austrians lost more times then most people can count but everyone makes lots of Austrian figures but I think by your answer that might be one of the reasons we don't see 1806 figures. People 'think' they lost big-time so why do that period. I know TMP has had this discussion before so no need to recreate on this thread.

Regardless of them losing I guess I still need to ask the question and maybe by this discussion some of the manufacturers will get off their backsides and do something about it.

" I see that Elite Miniatures, Outland Games (use to be Imperialist owned this line), and Foundry to some point cover this"

No, the Elite and Imperialist were quite different. I had both.

The Elites were very small, "traditional" 25mm figures, with not a lot of detail. I had some of their cavalry, and they looked tiny compared to modern 28mm figures.

The Imperialist were huge; over 30mm in some cases. The sculpting was simple, but clean. They were inexpensive, but had two problems. First, the line was very incomplete. And second, the guy who owned them was somewhat irregular. He had no website, for a long time not even an email address, and you could only buy them by word-of-mouth getting a hand-illustrated catalog and then sending him a check by snail-mail (very 1980s!), or – once in a blue moon – you'd run into him at an HMGS convention, but I haven't seen him there in about a decade. I have no idea what happened to those figures.

That leaves Foundry, whose 1806 Prussian line is relatively recent. It appeared in 2009, with the release of their "Napoleon" book, and it is also very incomplete. Those figures suffer from some very odd sculpting. The infantry is just bizarre: stumpy, odd limbs, and massive heads and hats that are about twice the size they should be.

So that's your selection, such as it is.

By the way, it's worth mentioning that the Prussians haven't ever been completed in 28mm, even for the later period (1812-15). For example: show me where you can find 28mm Prussian Grenadiers with the plume? Or the Guards? And I believe the only Cuirassiers you'll find are from Foundry, with the usual 3 figures for $18 USD, or something gawd-awful like that.

The people who've done the late-war Prussians have usually done them for 1815. If you want to do an 1813-14 army, you have to improvise or do figure conversions for several types of units.

I am surprised that OG has not done them or Spanish. They have pretty much everything else.

The new Foundry figures are all a bit odd.

Massive hats. Odd arms and short stumpy legs.

Probably the best looking range of 1806 Prussians and Saxons is the AB Miniatures 18mm range.

In terms of 25mm/28mm, Elite is probably the most complete range of 1806 Prussians that you can find and the sculpting is decent, although the "Impressionist" style of sculpting or "Gilder-esque" style might not be in everyone's taste.

I had high hopes for the Foundry range, until I saw the oversized bicorn hats. However, Foundry has a few items not available in the Elite range so I pick and choose some of those figures. The personalities are decent figures.

the Imperialist Prussian cavalry is very nice, but HUGE in comparison to everything (ie. Elite) else on the market. I have one regiment of dragoons and cuirassiers despite their hugeness. They look good.

Outland: not a big fan of these figures.

I have a fairly large collection of 1806 Prussians so I've had the opportunity to see and use all of the figures available in my collection. Until something better comes along, I recommend the Elite Miniatures range as your best bet. Or scale down to 18mm and use the superb and life like AB figures.

A tangential question is why don't more Napoleonic wargamers build armies for La Grande Armee 1805-1807 and field French infantry in bicorns?

Ulm, Austerlitz, Jena, Auerstadt, the 1806 winter campaign in Poland and the Friedland campaign in 1807 – lots of good battles there to fight.

Or one could use the really outstanding Blue Moon range (15/18mm) that will be very complete once finished by the end of next year.
Outstanding quality with great prices --whats not to like?
Regards
Russ Dunaway

Because they aren't 28mm…..

Yes.

"By the way, it's worth mentioning that the Prussians haven't ever been completed in 28mm, even for the later period (1812-15). For example: show me where you can find 28mm Prussian Grenadiers with the plume? Or the Guards? And I believe the only Cuirassiers you'll find are from Foundry, with the usual 3 figures for $18.00 USD USD, or something gawd-awful like that."

Connoisseur do some rather fine Cuiraissiers

Could not one use 15/18mm figures with 25/28s and just pretend they are standing off in the distance?
Regards
Russ Dunaway

Agree with Fritz -- the true Grande Armee not gamed as much as I would like. I love to get out by bicorne French. Heck, I even have some in white!

the only rescue – would be if the Perrys would have a go for those armies.

You can use SYW hussars for the 1806 Prussian hussars.

And probably Saxon artillery crews from 1809; I think those are available from Old Glory and Foundry.

CCB, Perry does post 1812 Prussian Kuerassiers and none of the infantry would have worn the plume on campaign anyway.

Either Perry or Calpe provides pretty full coverage of the 1812-1815 period.

good 1806-1807 Russians in any deapth are also hard to find in 28mm as well…RSM did some both Prussians and Russians in 20 mm a few years back but they went away..

Is it because no one wants to be on the receiving end of "Let's play some Napoleonics, I'll be the Grand Armee in 1806 and you be the (fill in the blank)?"

Why do we have two topics in two different child-forums on the same topic under the same parent forum?

This is what I wrote on the same topic in the Napoleonic Products child forum:

During the 1805 to 1807 period – I would not say Eylau, Friedland, or even Auerstadt were one sided.

What let the Prussian armed forces down at Jena-Auerstadt was the breakdown at the highest level of command, the sluggish response from those culprits and the speed at which the French were able to react to the ever changing battlefield on that day. The Prussian forces were well trained and armed, however their use of artillery was dated, their linear tactics although stable, could not adapt as quickly as the French at a tactical level, and they did not have the excellent officer corps that they would have, the beginnings of, in 1813, providing decent consistent leadership at a senior level across the armed forces. That doesn't sound one sided to me. Any competent player acting as CinC for the Prussians at Jena or Auerstadt would give the French a run for his money.

Eylau, a blood bath, could have been lost by Napoleon. Frieldand was another blood bath, but the positioning of the Russian forces basically dictated their defeat. However, the French received a bloody nose at that battle and at Pultusk.

I think the reason is as is discussed on another topic regarding "wargames history" – myth perpetuated upon myth has created this smoke and mirrors around the 1805 to 1807 campaigns – Let me put it another way, would Napoleon, if acting as allied CinC at any of the battles mentioned, would he have lost them?

1805 to 1807 are considered the "glory years" of Napoleon 1st bloody campaigns, however, I don't believe Napoleon would have thought those years at the time were a pushover, not until he was swept up by his own propaganda machine.

It would be nice to see more figure manufacturers make figures for the 1805 to 1807 (this should really say 1800 to 1807 and excepting Victrix's great early French infantry box set) campaigns and how about seeing figure manufacturers bring out ranges covering the early campaigns of Napoleon / Suvorov in Italy?

However, before those periods, I would like to see plastic German states – Bavaria, Wurttemberg, Baden, Hesse etc come out first…Oh and plastic cavalry and artillery, particularly horse artillery.

AND I then wrote:

For anyone wanting to have a crack at Jena and / or Auerstadt but not sure if they want go right ahead and purchase some armies, then I would recommend you can do no wrong by picking up the following boardgames that are excellent games on this double quirky battle:

For Auerstadt try and get hold of this link even with the "restrictions" in place a competent Prussian player will table Davout.

IMHO Jena would not have been lopsided had the higher command had listened to some pretty damn good junior generals and officers, the vast bulk of the army instead of marching to Auerstadt, could have caught Napoleon and his forces, giving them a bloody nose, debussing out of the close and constricting terrain that was the Jena defile.

I would whole heartedly recommend playing the Approach to Battle scenario from this superb game link This will show you the constricting nature of the terrain and how the Prussians could have hemmed Napoleon in with the few forces he had and given Napoleon a bloody battle.

If you want a grand tactical game then I would recommend this: link

And for seeing a truly Operational / Strategic side of things and answer those "why did they do that?!" questions then there is no better system or game than these two:

For purely the Prussian campaign:
link

For the pièce de résistance:
link A strategic / operational game on the 1806/07 East Prussian campaign.

I have found that these games can help you understand the whys and wherefores of how the opponents went about carrying out a campaign, the restricting factors placed upon a General, like supply, attrition, replacements, weather, and the impact this had on the troops and the conduct of the campaign. They certainly can help in providing a background to a table wargame.

Two topics because I accidentally cross-posted to 18th Century instead of Napoleonic – that's why.

But to your post. Thank you for the information. Although I want 1806 Prussians I'm not looking to refight those battles again. I want to game my own and I can't even do that because of the lack of figures. I would like to be able to make up my own scenarios for 1806 and have some fun but again there's that lack of figures thing getting in the way.

I would hope the some figure manufacturer is reading this and starts to thing to themselves that they could fill a need in the hobby and of course make a little money off of it. But I am kinda picky, I want Front Rank or Eureka quality but I'm not willing to pay Foundry prices. I could go with metal or hard plastic, that doesn't bother me. I just want someone to do finally do this.

From the boards it would seem you cross posted to Napoleonic Product and Napoleonic Discussion,unless Bill moved one of your posts?

Anyway, as for early war figures certainly from around 1800 to 1807 you have the following:

There is Victrix Early French Infantry see link

and Warlord do early Russians as well:

link

Early Austrians are now done by Perry link

and Victrix link

18th C. Guy – I share your pain! Had high hopes when the Foundry 1806 Prussian range was announced, only to see them dashed between the ham fists of what was released.

Agree with MM that the men in 1806 were a lot better than their leaders, making a wargame army quite worthwhile. However, unless the Perrys get round to them eventually, I guess it'll have to be 18mm and AB for me…

I agree with Captain Cornelius Butt on the lack of 28mm Prussian Guards. Connoisseur have a guardsman but no command figures. So far as I know, Perry and Calpe don't do Guards. Where can I get officers and drummers?

MM – I know about the Victrix, Warload and Perry early war figures. Now we just need one of them to do 1806 and we'll be in heaven!

I think there anren't more 1806 Prussians because there are some pretty silly hats there!

But, Lambert, all you have to do to make Prussian guards from line is file the cuff patch from the cuffs and paint on litzen. Even a Bavarian could do it!

qI think there aren't more 1806 Prussians because there are some pretty silly hats there!

Probably a large part of the reason. The 1806 Prussians have a distinctly Eighteenth Century look about them, which might be a bit off-putting to gamers into the "Napoleonic look".

18th Cent Guy – It won't be long before you will see some early war cavalry that I believe should cover the 1806 campaign to around 1810/12 from one of those manufacturers I have mentioned.

I would have thought the Garde officers could be converted from existing figures?

I compeltly disagree about the hats, they look splendid, espcially for the cavarly not to forget that the Füsiliee already wore the shako.

the Prussians of 1806 had no more 18th century look like the French of 1806 – in fact the cut of cloth was more modern, already streight lapels compared to the curved ones of the French.

They were in a transition period which makes the uniforms very fascinating

for a good coverage of the Prussian army of 1806 see

napoleon-online.de

von Winterfeldt, I agree there isn't a more beautiful and colorful army during the "Glory Years".

When playing rules like GdB with a couple of Divisions a side the French have their hands full. The 1806 Prussians problems stem more from upper command and control, lack of true Cavalry and Artillery reserves.

I gave up in the early ninetes, waiting for someone to produce the early Prussians in 25/28mm and jumped on the AB figures when they came out.

Check out some of my Early Prussians on Paul's (Paulalba's Blog) or here on TMP and see why these are fun to paint.

link

TMP link

John

Yes I know the AB Prussians of 1806 are great, including the artillery train.
Otherwise I agree, a good army poorly led.

By the way, there exist no correct figures for the Saxon Army as it looked like in 1806

Von Blucher -- What kind of national characteristics (or restrictions for want of a better word) does GdB place on the 1806 Prussians? Sounds like the constraints are at command level, not tactical formations. As part of the "other string" on this topic, I posted regarding restrictions in my group that compel the 1806 to be in line too early and too often i.e. nearly always. Curious thoughts. I've been interested in GdB but never played the set.

"But, Lambert, all you have to do to make Prussian guards from line is file the cuff patch from the cuffs and paint on litzen".

And add the plumes.

I take the point that it might be an easy conversion, I was just puzzled that manufacturers haven't made guards when there are masses of other Prussian figures available. However, I now realise that Elite have released them. At last.

And add the plumes.

I take the point that it might be an easy conversion, I was just puzzled that manufacturers haven't made guards when there are masses of other Prussian figures available. However, I now realise that Elite have released them. At last.

But they didn't wear plumes on campaign…. (furrows brow)

But those bicorns are silly and the grenadier hats weird! Almost as bad as some of the stuff the emigre units in Britain were made to wear, and then folk wonder why they did so poorly!

"By the way, there exist no correct figures for the Saxon Army as it looked like in 1806"

Old Glory took a stab at it, back in the late 1990s. Those figures are still around.

So the infantry is wearing the Kittel above the uniform?

As to the bicorns and grenadier hats, they look much better than the usual pots infantry are wearing – shakos I mean.

Again, Elite offers everything that you need to build an 1806 Prussian army, an 1805 Austrian army, and an 1805-1807 Russian army. Oh, and they make the French 1805-07 figures too. So to say that nobody makes the figures or offers a comprehensive range is not the true case.

I augment my Elite figures with the follow:

Old Glory Russians (Dave Alsop designed figures)
Victrix early Russians
Eureka early Russians

Foundry 1806 Prussians and Saxons. Good horse artillery and personality figures in these ranges.

Victrix French in bicornes

Dixon French in bicornes

Perry plastic Austrians (when they are released)

Outland Games – 1806 Prussian cavalry

Front Rank – French in bicornes, and French cavalry and Austrian cavalry.

As you can see, there are a lot of choices from which to build up comprehensive armies for the major combatants of this period. Specific to the 1806 Prussians, the Elite range provides everything that you need.

I would love to see a company like Alban Miniatures do the 1806/07 Prussians and Russians (and early French) – that would be something beautiful to behold.

@Esquire, sorry for the late response back.

The main constraint is no mixed formations within the same Brigade and poor command ratings for most of their commanders. This effect change of orders the most and gives an advantage to the French in this respect. The Prussians are able to march up in column, but they would deploy in line after that. The do have a rifled armed skirmish element per battalion in the schutzen, but not as numerous as the French. The Jagers and Fusiliers at the time were more used on the flanks or attacking and holding villages. It might have been a different story at Auerstadt if York was there in command of the Jaegers and Fusiliers, as he bloodied the French at Altenzaun on Oct 26th, 1806 in a rear guard action utilizing jaegers and fusiliers. So we allow more flexibility to them in later combats after Jena/Auerstadt.

Some of the constraints we place on the Prussians are that artillery batteries cannot target the same formation unless that formation is the only target available. We do give the Prussian Heavy Cavalry "Superior Mounts" as at that time they were probably the finest mounted troops on the continent. There is a benefit in melee with this and Napoleon was most worried about the Prussian Cavalry regiments in the upcoming battles. But the Cavalry are unable to receive "Attack" orders, only "Engage" orders.

With there poor rating of their command element in general, it gives the advantage to the French in command control and change of orders and also shows a realistic issue with coordination of Prussian Divisions with each other.

If you haven't seen or read it, R Mark Davies excellent write up in Wargames Illustrated #158 of the Auerstadt re-fight using GdB rules is a must,which, even in their game was a close run win for the French.

Hope this helps.

John

Thanks John. I am jumping into my resources and feel that you are spot on.

@Von Blücher

How do you deal with the regimental guns, to you allow (as it did happen also in 1806 sometimes) to draw them from different regiments to form indipendent batteries?

The problem of the 1806 army – it was a peace time army – which after 11 years rest had to face a war ready army at its peak.

I also would restrice the Prussians for line formation as tactical orders, columns were for approach and not for tactcial engagements.

My favourite – still is that one of 1792 to 1795.

@von Winterfeldt

Regimental guns can be grouped together from the 2 regiments in a brigade or left with the parent unit. We still have them move forward with the units when advancing though.
The other option is to not field them and add 4 figures to the units firing ability. Naturally the guns would be lost if the unit lost in a melee round.

The French army in 1806 was an efficient fighting force that knew what they were doing from their years of battle field experience,

The Prussians were still shaking off the cob webs at the start of the campaign, which is why we make an adjustment to their abilities after Jena/Auerstadt. Especially when it comes to any engagements in East Prussia.

I agree that tactically all units would be in a linear formation. I was just pointing out that they would march up in column and redeploy into line before moving up to give battle.

If you can get a copy of R Mark Davies write up on GdB refight of Auerstadt, it's a fantastic write up. It also shows how close Davout came to actually losing the battle

John

Auerstadt refight…oh, that was fun!

Dear John
The Prussian Army was mobilised in 1805. The army was at the stage when it needed to be returned to a peacetime footing. A great deal of reform had carried out but being on a war footing could not be performed.
Stephen

From what I have read on the Prussian army in 1806 they were not tactically inept as many wargamers seem to be suggesting. It was their senior command (and the command system itself) that failed, not the troops at brigade down to platoon level, they perfomed admirably. They also made use of the column but not like the French at this time, certainly when deploying on to the battlefield.

Stephen,
There was a reform, but how many of the older Generals embraced it.

A perfect exanple is what York did at Altenzaun with almost the same number of Jaegers and Fusiliers that were at Auerstadt. Yet the advance guard light infantry at Auerstadt were sent to the flank as was the custom prior to the reforms.

John