"I confess 20mm is better than 1/56 aka 28 mm" Topic

OK, I am a die hard 28 mm collector and player not just for WW II but for many other periods and genres. Long ago on a thread I am not able to find at the moment I got into a long argument with some other TMP members about the quality of 28mm figures as apposed to 20mm. Most of my WW II collection is Artizan, and Crusader with some Black Tree Design, and Bolt Action tossed in. All of it is metal. Now I am not about to toss my 28mm collection but I felt I needed to set the record straight and make apologizes for being dogmatic.

Let me say I like my somewhat cartoon-like miniatures. Yes their hands are a bit big and the weapons somewhat chunky. I do not care. These figure have tons of character, their kit is accurate, and they have been lovingly painted by me along with the terrain and vehicles that make up these games.

However, recently my good friend and fellow gamer known to you here as Nazrat, made the switch from 28 mm WW II to 20 mm. He sold his 28 mm collection. (for a goodly sum I understand) And with the funds went completely into 20 mm WW II. Enough time has passed and he has begun to paint the figures and vehicles. Most are Elheim and AB figures. They are without a doubt the best looking miniatures I have ever seen. The figure are proportional, well cast, and not fragile in the least. Some of the poses are less dynamic than my Artizan/Crusader/Bolt Action, et. al. but they are crisp and from the look of things so far a joy to paint.

So there you have it. I concede the point. I am not changing my size/scale with regards WW II (I also game WW II in 15mm) but I felt the need to clear the air. I am sure this will result in some debate here but that is alright with me.

Just got the Bolt Action rules and have been debating whether to go with 20mm or 28mm. This gives me more to think about.

My WWII armies are 20mm and have been for over 30 years.

I switched because armor and other vehicles at 28mm scale just got to costly. For $20.00 USD or so dollars I can get a 1/72 diecast piece of armor already painted. And 20mm is a lot quicker to paint. I still do Colonials and Bush Wars in 28mm its not a complete switch.

I find it interesting that many gamers began this hobby by playing ww2 actions with 1/72nd/20mm stuff, then branched off into other scales. It seems as if it is now coming back full circle!

Tom and Margard my main resistance to 20mm had been that when I first wanted to game WW II it was very hard to find anything other than soft plastic figures. I hated trying to prime and paint those figures and gave up in favor of 28 mm and 15mm. That was before the internet had become so pervasive and the ability to order from manufacturers overseas became more convenient.

Tom as to whether to go with 20mm or 28mm using Bolt Action there are pros and cons for both. I recommend going to The Guild website which will most likely cinch 20 mm for you once you see what Piers and the gang do with that size. Pretty much everything you might want for WW II is available in 20 mm or 1/72 scale model kits. Plus HO scale model train buildings and terrain are the correct scale as well. Basically you can purchase more than you need for less and still have the quality of scope that you can get with 28mm. I love my 28mm, but it I were to do all over again I would go with 20mm.

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20mm is a tried and true scale for WWII gaming – and there are certainly lots of models/figs out there now!

I'm also making the switch, but I'll be using many of the excellent plastic figures from Ceasar and others.

Let me say I like my somewhat cartoon-like miniatures. Yes their hands are a bit big and the weapons somewhat chunky. I do not care. These figure have tons of character,

I like this also, which is why I'm keeping my BTD Soviets for Weird War II skirmish games and will buy some 28mm Germans for said small action (nee RPG) gaming. Those games are just so much fun using 28mm figures from people like Pulp FIgures ect! Plus I like painting them. :-)

But 1/72 and 20mm is really the WWII sweet spot. Less space, great buildings, die cast armor, ect.

I do WWII in 6, 15, 20, and 28, but my first love will always be the 20mm scale. You can get just the right amount of stuff on the table, with scales for shooting much more realistic to the ground scale of the figures than in 28mm, yet still see what they are armed with, which I can no longer do with 15mm. Still, I enjoy them all…

I think the chief reason to go to 20mm (or 1/72 scale) is cost. 15mm is cheaper and does have a good selection of WWII items. However, 20mm, especially plastic figures, are inexpensive and are large enough to give a good visual impact. As mentioned above, you can get pre-painted diecast models that are ready to hit the table.

If money and space was not a factor, I'd probably go with 28mm figures myself. But, that is not the case and 28mm figures are pretty expensive these days.

Andy, that's exactly why I changed scales, too. Kim was looking at the 50+ AB German models I am painting all at once and saw just how nice they are.

As soon as I do the final highlight on their skin and paint their buttons and the piping on their epaulets I will be posting photos.

I am one of the ones who has done the evolution over the decades, going from big army men to 15mm, to 1/72, to 6mm, to 25mm, to 10mm, back to 15mm, back to 6mm and now, finally, back to 1/72 and 54s.

I had originally played with 1/72 plastics, then went to 15mm, and then to 20mm metal. Really great figures from AB, Warmodelling, and others drew me in. And the growing number of diecast pre-paints and easy build 1/72 kits are another boon.

Although I went die-cast for all my 1/72 scale Moderns, I really like the vehicles from Milicast and MMS. It's fun and fairly easy to build them and I know I will enjoy all the painting a lot.

28mm is the best scale, there were some new (old guys) fellow wargamers coming into the hobby recently that did not wanted to spend any hard earned cash on 28mm figures and vehicles so resorted to their old 1/72 stuff, I can understand that.
Some years ago (in the Seventies) 1/72 was almost the only option but it's so "last decades" that it just does not do it for me.
28mm is a fantastic scale to wargame there is absolutely no way any micro scales and "near micro scales" like 1/72,76 etc. will compare , with 28mm you get tons of character actual details that you would never have in smaller/cheap plastic scales etc.

Friends and I also just went through the process of choosing between 15mm, 20mm, and 28mm for Bolt Action and the soon to be released Battle Group Kursk. The consensus was that 20mm seemed to make the most sense for the following reasons:

1. Size; 15mm is just a bit too small and fiddly for a game that plays best with individually mounted models and where it matters what weapon each model carries. We tried BA this past weekend with my 15mm FOW armies and it was a chore seeing which figure had an SMG, which a rifle, etc. And my eyesight isn't getting any better.

28mm is too big. While the ranges/distances are way out of scale whether you use 15mm, 20mm or 28mm, using 28mm only exacerbates the problem. Even on my permanent 12'x6' table 28mm just looks too big.

20mm is a compromise that works well.

2. Cost. 20mm figures and vehicles are about 1/3 the cost of 28mm.

3. Selection/variety-- While I used to think that 20mm wasn't as well served as the other scales because many of the infantry figures were soft plastic (which isn't the greatest for wargames figures) with the advent of a number of hard plastic ranges (PSC, Valiant to name two) that's no longer a problem. Not to mention all the lines of metal minitiatures that have sprung up.

In addition, as someone above pointed out, there are many die cast 1/72 tanks/vehicles that come prepainted if you don't feel like assembling and painting your own.

Gothic Line- don't you produce your own line of 28mm WW2 miniatures?

I had a quick look at the Gothic Line website and I see no detail on their sculpts that isn't matched or exceeded by the likes of AB, Battlefield/Blitz or Elhiem in 20mm or, as you say, "near micro scales" (strangely, having wargamed for a long time, I always thought "micro scale" was 1/285 to 1/300 which is hardly "near" 1/72 but each to his own).

I like my FAA Russians immensely!

I game WWII in 20 and 15mm, although I am thinking about going into 6mm for bigger actions. I don't like 28mm for WWII, and if I am honest, I can't provide any good reason for it. Just it's not the size I like for gaming WWII. Oddly enough I have no problem gaming other periods (SYW and Medievals) with 28s

Although I would never argue what is the "best" sized figure to game WW II with, to say that 28mm has more detail or character than models like AB, Blitz, Battlefield, SHQ, and Elheim is to display a profound ignorance (perhaps willful in this particular sock-puppety, self-serving instance) of the models out there. These aren't the cheap plastics of the last decade by any means.

And to label 20mm as a "micro-scale" takes the argument far into the realm of the absurd.

There is NO best, only what YOU like to game with!

Have to say the new 20mm stuff looks great and the price is right. I am contemplating 20mm for BA too

I guess like many gamers I have several scales for different venues. At my FLGS 28mm is all the rage for Bolt Action, but my mates, and the shop, have large and extensive collections, so I shall probably only dabble, at least until the Perry Plastic 28s start emerging…

But at home, restricted to a 6 x 12 foot table 20mm is king – and I am experimenting with forcing Bolt Action to take on much larger armies than it was designed for, by giving orders to an entire battery of guns, a pair of tanks, etc…

And then of course theres 15mm for FOW…..

Leigh Thanks for visiting,I do know there is quality small stuff out there,itīs just not my favored scale,and nazrat absurd is not being able to read and understand your own language as is being unpleasant towards other/different opinions.

Obviously in my opinion 28mm rocks but as a producer I can and probably will produce several scales including your dearest tiny ones.(at present I produce 60mm,54mm and 28mm).

With all this crisis itīs expected to have smaller/cheaper scales gain some ground over good old 28mm productions.

With an atitude like that you will lose a LOT of potential customers.

Like me and everyone I know. Good job.

Being honest and polite to others is my welcoming card.

Just for Gothic Line.

20mm AB (picture from Deep Fried Happy Mice)

Gothic Line 28s

Sir, the day that any company that deals in 28mm miniatures achieves somewhere near the beautiful sculpts that AB miniatures, is a day i'll rejoice. The only ones that are near there are Offensive Miniatures and the Perry sculpted miniatures sold by Foundry (Brit paras, FJ, home guard etc) Both very limited ranges.
Your miniatures have a charm, but if they remind me of anything, its the 1/72 Atlantic miniatures from the 70s.
In my (albeit subjective) view your companies miniatures fall well short of that mark, and you make no friends or win customers being confrontational on fora.

I am fond of 28mm figures,but my first true loves are 20mm 1/72 1/76.

Heartily agree with BEDE 19025, very neatly summed up.

As for the availabilty of ready built models @ a very agreeable price, you can't go wrong with the comforting feel of Dragon diecasts. Fabulous models and tastefully finished.Just seems a shame to take them out of their boxes!

WhiteManticore:

(hats of to you)

Your initial post aught to be applauded, its nice to see folk reflect on what they've said and done and be gutsy enough to admit they may have got carried away in the moment.

I think they remind me more of Matchbox WWII figs. I agree it's bad form to bash a smaller scale without saying you produce figs in a competing scale.

Thanks,

John

Thank you CCollins,those are very nice, your honest opinion is quite valued,I did say there is quality 1/72 stuff out there…
This might sound strange to you but I will express my opinion freely with in a fair-play and correct/civil way towards others,no worries there.
To me it not just about selling here believe me.I make friends being honest.
Selling is good but it is not everything.

The scales have fallen from your eyes! Hallelujah! Testify, brother!

Personally I have both 20mm and 28mm, and I'm thinking about some 15mm; but my 20mm armies are much bigger!

"The "scales" have fallen from you eyes!"

GROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!!! (nice one spontoon)

@ CCollins, thank you.

Maybe I should start a thread on what are the best 28mm WW II figures since we have already had the vehicle debates at these three threads:

TMP link
TMP link
TMP link

I could never switch scales for all of the terrain I would have to redo!

Is there a stockist of AB WWII figures in the USA?

And are AB WWII from the same company/sculptor that does AB Napoleonics? Thanks.

No, there is no US dealer for AB, and yes, they are by the uber-talented Tony Barton!

I have ordered AB figures direct from them, and from Milicast when I am buying their fabulous resin tanks. Both give great service!

Many of todays "soft plastic" figures are actually one of several new plastics that hold with regular model glue and hold paint well also. There are also new paints from Krylon and Rustoleum that work on all plastics, even the old ones. It's not 1973 anymore!

Mike "Bunkermeister" Creek

"As our nation's forefathers would likely agree, the beguiling problem with quotes seen on the Internet is that you can never be certain they're genuine."
-- Abraham Lincoln

I had to sell off my 15mm WWII and 28mm WWII. I was very upset. Took me years to get back into the era again.
Valiant's 20mm (maybe a very generous 20mm) and Armorfast and PSC along with all the other cool plastic metal and resin models out there not only reminded me of the fun I had as a kid, but of the great fun and ease of collection in this scale. All scales in WWII seem to work well though I think the great updates in 20mm/1/72nd just reinforce the nostalgic "Commando" commandocomics.com factor!

I've been sorely tempted by all the cheap 20mm (actually 1/72) goodness that's available in plastic, thanks to companies like Italeri, Pegasus, Caesar Miniatures and PSC. Plus, there are much cheaper and varied easy-build kits in 1/72 from Armourfast and Italeri, and nicely prepainted and affordable buildings/dioramas from Conflix and IMEX.

But I just can't make the switch. 28mm is the only scale I play and I have to remain fanatikly true to my TMP moniker. So I'm going to have to say 'thanks but no thanks' and stick with my inferior chunky 28mm figures and 1/48 vehicles for this period.

Hmmm. Ok, I'll fess up. I own WW2 in 1/285, 15mm, 20mm, and 25/28mm. The 15s are used for FOW (but not lately) and the 28s for everything else (a lot). Others are mostly idle.

My 20mm WW2 goes back a long way-possibly one of my Airfix Shermans is my oldest surviving wargames piece-and it wouldn't make sense now to discard all of that.
However I have dabbled recently in 28mm, as it's a favourite period, and there are some nice figures that I WANT to paint.
I am imposing a limit of not more than one platoon of any one type, the intention being that they would be for small skirmishes only.
If I was coming to this from scratch, I think the cost of 28mm vehicles would scare me off.

AB Figures are about the best WW2 miniatures in any scale.

Whitemanticore…

Welcome to the 'One True Size' for WW2.

Im hoping that with all the recent WW2 rules releases – Bolt Action and soon Battlegroup Kursk – WW2 gaming will get a huge boost in popularity.

Im also pleased to see the size I consider the 'standard' for WW2 once again growing. The sheer variety of miniatures and vehicles available for '20mm' gamers is staggering, not to mention the masses of cheap diecasts these days. How many other scales offer WW2 Royal Thai Army figures?

I dont believe in denigrating anyones choice of scale, what is best is utterly subjective, but I have yet to see any 28mm WW2 figures that even come close to AB… Though I really like some of the new stuff from Warlord Games.

But I will always be a 20mm fanboy…

In the case for plastics, while it's true that the old figures by Atlantic, Esci, Airfix, etc could be rather primitive and inaccurate (in some but not all cases), and the plastic did not hold paint well, I recently painted some Caesar Miniatures WW2 sets and they are quite nice. My only complaint is that they have too many SMG poses and not enough rifles. I do prefer metal myself, but would not be adverse to adding such well sculpted figures. They are a bit smaller than AB and Warmodelling, but fit in perfectly with CP Models Waffen SS sets. Since I painted up the Italians and Afrika Korps for my customer, I decided to paint him some 8th Army and I was pleasantly surprised that the venerable Airfix, Esci, and Revell sets are all compatible. Too bad Airfix still uses that shiny, waxy plastic, but the Esci(now Italieri) and Revell seem fine.

I would have to agree with Piers and others in regard to AB. Just the other night I was looking through the box of US infantry figures I finished a few years ago. Anthony Barton certainly has captured the look and feel of American G.I.s. They just look 'right'.

I have also gone full circle with WW2 and 20mm, having played with this stuff as a lad. Came back to WW2 a few years back and did 15mm, sold it & now only do 20mm.
Totally agree with the sentiments about AB, but I also have lots of plastic figures- you just have to pick and choose, and conversions aren't that hard with plastics.

All plastics.

The stuff available now in 1/72nd/20mm, even the plastic stuff, if amazing, here are some of mine.
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link

Although some 20mm are nice I really prefer 28mm.

jacksarge,

Are the top trio of tommies Caesar? They look similar, but I have not seen the British except on PSR.

Gunner Dunbar,
Those Pegasus figures look excellent. I have the WW2 French but have not dug in and put them together yet. A lot can be accomplished with multi-part molds.

I decided to start WW2 gaming and wanted to do it on the cheap. So I dug out all my old models I made when I was younger. Some were okay. Other's needed painting upgrades. These were all 1/72 stuff. A friend gave me a bag full of plastic figures. Painted them up and now I'm doing skirmish games on the cheap. I've started augmenting them with more current stuff from PSC.

I just really like miniatures. Using one scale does not mean I dislike other scales. Especially in this day and age when choice is so broad. Currently my collection of minis and terrain is 28mm and 6mm.

I also love em all. However, I use particular scales for various periods and levels of combat. I have 3mm WWII that I use for Corps actions. My 1/72 scale figs are for my Company and lower actions. My 54mm WWII are for platoon sized combats. While 1/72 is what I grew up with and my first love I wouldn't get rid of any of these scales.
I do find though that I tend to only use 28mm for conflicts where 1/72 figs aren't available. Scifi and Fantasy prevailing. My personal view is that 1/72 gives me everything I would want from 28mm but is cheaper and quite often has greater variety. Not always when moving away form some eras.

Thanks,

John