"Starting a new project!" Topic

Hi all!

Well, I just ordered the first figures for a new project.

My father is a huge naval history buff. They have dozens of prints and woodcuts of famous ship battles hanging around their house, and dozens of books about Nelson and Trafalgar.

So I thought I would, for Christmas, do a little scene for him; namely, the death of Nelson from Wargames Illustrated.

But I am not going to just do what comes in the set.

Instead, I plan to model a bit of the ship around him. I was actually thinking about doing a deck below him AND a deck above him, with the action on them… however, I have to look at the layouts of the ships a bit and see if that is A) correct (what decks were below and above him?) and B) doable (is it too much?)

I also need to find the gear that would be around them. I am not sure where to look; I know someone who does a bunch of naval models and so am hoping he might be able to point me in the correct way. But does anyone know if there are any suppliers of 28mm British Napoleonic naval accouterments out there?

Also I need to find the figures. That's a toughie… I will need a few "standing around and watching" sorts of sailors, and I just don't know if those exist. Maybe a few conversions are in order, but this won't be easy. I literally don't know a single manufacturer who makes them. Hope people out there can make suggestions!

Finally, I am considering doing some electricity in this one, like I did with the Harry Potter display. Namely, I am considering doing an actual lit lamp above his head. No idea at ALL how to do that though… I may look at the fire set I got and see if I can use a single light from that, clipping the other two off.

So… that's the new project.

Honestly, I would LOVE some advice from the folks out there; there is such a WEALTH of knowledge, both naval and miniature, that I am really hoping folks out there can point me in different directions that might help!

Thanks so much in advance for ANY advice you all can offer!:)

More and updates on the blog!

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The obvious suggestions
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IR1

I would look at Shep Paine's "Gun Deck HMS Victory" for some insperation for lighring and just general info.

This is in 90mm and the figures were all sculpted by him.
I've seen this live at the MMSI show when he first produced it. It's now part of the Forbe's collection.

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John

I agree with the Shep Paine recommendation. An absolutely beautiful diorama.

It looks to me like the painting of the death of Nelson is set deeper down in the ship – perhaps the orlop, or surgeon's station, below the water line? If that's the case, there would not be another gun deck below it. And the scene in the painting is certainly very dimly lit, in an area of the ship which must not have any sunlight.

If there were indeed a gun deck right above the scene, it would have to be the lower, heaviest battery – which would inform your decisions on what size cannon and other equipment to include.

You've got a very ambitious project, and I look forward to following your progress! Good luck to you and keep us updated. – James

Hey guys!

Yeah, I love that Shep Paine piece. I have a magazine that featured it. Honestly it is almost so good that I can't look at it, or I will hate whatever I do:)

James, IIRC it is the orlop. The thing is… I am considering making it a bit "incorrect" in the name of the visual. I am not sure if there is a place on the ship where you WOULD have a gun above and a gun below (or even a gun below only… I could do marines above or something similar) but I don't want Nelson (who should be the visual centerpiece) at the very bottom of the stack, you know? I just think it would look "off". That said… I am not sure it is possible to find an appropriate position in the ship. Tough, and something that I (knowing NOTHING ABOUT SHIPS AT ALL) need help with:)

BTW, here is the rough drawing of what I was planning…

Two problems with your drawing:-

1) The orlop deck where Nelson was treated was the lowest deck other than the hold. It was below the waterline (hence protected – which is why you take the casualties down there), so you can't have Nelson on the middle deck of the sandwich.

2) Don't be fooled by the paintings, you have way too much headroom in the decks. I'm 6' 3" and can't stand up in the orlop, I'm nearly bent double. Pictures where Hardy (6' 5") can bend gently over Nelson are allowing severe artistic leeway so you can see the characters.

Peter Goodwin (the current keeper of HMS Victory) has done a lot a research as to where Nelson was actually treated and died (as opposed to where the paintings say) which has led to the display and memorial being moved to the correct location. Peter has done sketches of the actual position – I will see if I can dig them out or direct you to an easily available source.

Quite a challenge you have picked out for yourself – good luck !

Best regards,

Mark Barker
The Inshore Squadron

Very ambitious & exciting project!

Just an observation on your potential vertical "sandwich" layout: if you stick with the historically accurate version of the below deck arrangement, you could still put an interesting but not overwhelmingly-distracting level BELOW Nelson's demise, by modelling the hold, perhaps with a few little 28mm rats included.

Thats a good point – 36lber-Nelson-Barrels and ballast

If you created a layout where the size of each layer was larger as you head to the orlop deck, visually the eye would naturally track to the bottom scene.

You're skipping of two gun decks between the top layer and the lowest layer (orlop, gun, middle, upper, quarter and poop for the record) is understandable, but adding those two in would make an even more eye-catching vertical display. Something to consider.

I agree with Mark Barker above … the deckhead is low hence people have to stoop – I did and I am 6'0". Also it is below the waterline, so no guns below Nelson … only bilges and rats. The painting showing the death of Nelson is somewhat stylised, it does capture the feeling but not perhaps the actual event.

Try these guys for some links … royalnavalmuseum.org

Good luck, I've watched your projects to date and very much like what you do so I look forward to the final results.

Not to try to argue out of what you'd like to do, but I bet that you could do a pretty spectacular multi-deck scene depicting Nelson wounded on the deck where he was actually shot. You could still have lots of detail below that deck – though it might be a challenge to find an attractive way to have rigging suspended in the diorama, since you would need to have something for it to anchor to above. Will the entire piece be built in to a box like Paine's 'shadow boxes'? – James

A nice plan of Victory showing the orlop deck here…

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Some nice photos…

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Video of someone's visit here. Good 'atmosphere' shots of the ship and at about 6:50 is the spot you are after….

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Various modelling fora have information you may want to check out. link

You can actually find quite a bit by just googling "hms victory cutaway"

Hey guys!

Okay, here is the current plan:

Top deck, just a deck. What would the guys be doing up there during a firefight? I can do a couple of Marines firing… but who else would be up there, if there are no cannons?

Next two decks will be gun decks, a smaller gun in the uppermost, a larger gun in the lower. Five guys per gun, right?

Then, at the bottom of the stack, will be the Nelson scene. I know that cuts a row of gundecks to get to the orlop, but honestly it is meant as a diorama more for fun than history, so I think I can make that sacrifice.

Nothing under Nelson; again, I have to keep the size reasonable.

I was going to get these cannons:

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As the two guns.

I don't know much about the crew, though… I guess a rammer, a guy who shoots it, two spikes, and a guy for carrying the cannon ball? Is that good enough?

Anyway… any further advice VERY welcome, and thanks to everyone for the links, photos, and info… it is SO helpful, especially since so many of you guys (and gals) know SO much just off the top of your heads!:)

My only additional advice is that you'd better post some photos here when you're done. :)

Sounds like an ambitious and ultimately awesome project.

Anyone happen to be able to give advice on my last post, especially on the few questions? Or has my post hit the dreaded "Nobody is responding anymore" wall!?:)

Oh… And here's another question… Anyone know of a company that makes casualties for "regular people?" I ask because I need to find one or two shirtless fellows, or guys in shirt and pants, who are dead to represent crew.. But for the life of me I cannot think of a company that does. Any advice?

Thanks guys!

I wonder if you could use some shirtless Ancients casualties, maybe some Gauls. There are probably some decent shoeless, trousered fellows out there – though perhaps those English sailors who died aboard Victory might consider haunting you for representing them with ancient Frenchmen…..

OK – whether there are any guns on the top depends on where you take your slice. We can forget the poop, you are concentrating on the quarterdeck (unless you want to model the admiral's and captains cabins !)

Forward of the helm you have 12-pdrs, the remaining command staff and Marines.

Go much further forward and you get to the waist where the boats would be stored when the ship was not in action. No guns there, just the bulwarks and netting.

Oh, and you need more gun-crew – a 32-pdr would have 12-14 people for a full crew, halved if the ship were engaged on both sides. Most of them were there simply to haul on ropes to run the gun out once loaded.

Now you know why Victory needed 850 crew !

To get the exact layout you should be able to pick up old edition copies of Anatomy of the Ship – HMS Victory (this gives isometric, cross and profile sections).

As to crew dispositions etc you could look at Mark Adkin's Trafalgar Companion a good single volume summary before you springboard off into more techie books. (I'm credited with helping on the reconstruction of the battle but I'm not on commission – honest !)

Best wishes,

Mark Barker
The Inshore Squadron

Heck, I totally forgot about this book "Anatomy of the ship – HMS Victory", and I have a copy. This has all the plans of each deck.

Lord Ashram, If your interested in purchasing my copy, email me at JBStachura at aol dot com, or check on Amazon.

John