"Battle Honors vs. Old Glory" Topic

I am sure this has been discussed before, but I am a newbee to 15mm Napoleonics. I just got my first sets of Battle Honors and I am frankly disappointed that they noticably smaller and more petite than the Old Glory. I will of course paint them. But, the size does seem to make it more of a task than this genre already is. What figures do most of you like and why?

Thanks
Dave Hall
ABQ

I should add that the purchase was Russian Uhlans, Russian Cuirassiers and Russian Horse Artillery. The Cavalry figures are small and the artilley are as well. I know these are smaller guns 3pdrs and 6pdrs. The Crews are campariable to O.G.

Dave

I prefer the more standardization of poses in the BattleHonors range.

If you think battlehonors is petite, you have never seen any true 15mm like Heritage/Empire.

You should try AB figures you can order in the US or UK. Beautiful miniatures!

link

link

I am a fan of Old Glory 15s. For a long time they were very nice. Then up until about 18-24 months ago they were in pretty rough shape, but as of late they have been producing pretty decent figures again.

AB figures are widely regarded as "the best". They are very nice figures though they have far less variation in poses and individual character than some other brands (OG15s or Blue Moon).

Battle Honors was sculpted by Anthony Barton (who does AB) at some point, they are alright figures, I prefer OG15s as they have more variation between figures.

About ten years ago Old Glory sold their 15mm line to 19th Century Miniatures (who currently sells OG15s and Battle Honors 15s). Just a couple years ago, Old Glory proper started selling 15mm figures again under the brand Blue Moon. They are very nice figures, they have the individual character and variation of poses found in OG15s but they are cleaner sculpts, largely more realistic in their anatomy (though there are some exceptions) and slightly higher in cost. To their credit they are also working to create a more complete line (than anyone) for Napoleonics.

My collection of Napoleonics is several thousand with about 2,400 painted and those are most all Old Glory 15s with some Battle Honors and some Blue Moon.

Cheers,

The Bandit

I think as far as proportion and realism goes, Battle Honours are great.

As Bandit says, I think Blue Moon are the way to go and fill in with CGM or AB figures. I love AB, I just don't like their pricing as it isn't competitive at all. If you take in the 40% off for bulk ordering OG or Battle Honours or the Old Glory 25mm Army card that gives the same percent off, AB is tremendously overpriced. But, I still love AB :-)

Blue Moon is still filling out their ranges. They are not completing one nation or period for that matter but are releasing broadly across nations and periods. So, they have released major nations line and guard units already but we are still waiting on more cavalry and artillery. If you can wait, great; if not order Blue Moon and fill in with CGM and AB as warranted.

Personally, I will be using AB to fill in for special leaders and units. For rank and file, I think Blue Moon are a much better deal.

My Napoleonics are primarily Old Glory 15s supplemented with Battle Honours, and Essex. I am hoping that I will be able to work in the Blue Moon 15/18mm Napoleonics since I'm really very impressed with the variety of figure options they are offering in ranges such as their 15/18mm FIW figures. You can see my mix of Old Glory 15s, Battle Honours, and Essex at link

old Glory 15mm, while some figures are better than other generally I like the sculpts variety, animation, high relief that aids painting and affordability. I do plan to get a mess of Blue Moon War of 1812 once the range is more complete.

I have American 1812 minis, a mix of OG and BH (looking to rid myself of them if anyone is interested), I like the BH more, seem to be the right size for the scale. The OG tend a little larger than I like – I stay away from AB for that reason as they tend more to the 18mm size. For the Americans at least, OG does tend to feature more dynamic poses which I like.

I have French and British in OG and BH and I am really hard pressed to see much a difference in the size at all. They look good together and I use them in combination. I tend to like the BH a little more for the standardization as others have pointed out – it makes mapping out new units very easy when you only have a handful of poses to deal with, makes for good clean looking units.

My armies are a combination of Essex, AB's, Old Glory and Battle Honors. My favourites are AB though Old Glorys figures have alot of character and I like them too. BH are a bit smaller than the other two and more restrictive in how you buy them

Old Glory, more variety and character. Though the bayonets on some are very long.

One note about Battle Honors. Their Prussians and their Spanish figures are a tad larger than the rest of their line. Thought you might like to know.

When I started i was amazed that "15mm" could vary so widely. So I put together a side-by-side comparison web site (which now needs some updating):

link

Got a mix of BH,OG,Minifigs,Essex,Fantassin,etc.

I mix AB, OG, BH and BM with a small amount of Essex. I echo what bandit says. My BH are older so I can't verify that they are smaller than OG. At least mine match up to the OG.

If you think BH are petite, you definitely want 18mm figures.

Take a look at Lancashire for very paintable 18's:
link

Yes -Extra Crispy Pls do! I been waiting some time for it :-)
My collection is primarily OG with some BH in my ranks from other collections and that I like the BH Aust cav best.
I agree about BH artillery-most of my Russian are these smaller guns.
Reason for OG was the animation and price.
Most of the BM looks stellar.
I am disappointed though on their Russian 1812 grenadier line since the plume is tool small/short and have gone to AB for the grenadiers with some of my initial OG Grenadier units.
BTW I still have a boat load of the heritage/Empire from my younger days ….that now just need re-mounting. Contemplating possibility of unloading them. French w/ some Pols
MG

If it's already too late and you have both put the shorter figures on a slightly thicker base. Unless you're talking about the old Minifigs stick figures or Heritage no one will notice.

Yes Extra Crispy! And the cavalry please too would be quite helpful. <3

I love AB, I just don't like their pricing as it isn't competitive at all. If you take in the 40% off for bulk ordering OG or Battle Honours or the Old Glory 25mm Army card that gives the same percent off, AB is tremendously overpriced. But, I still love AB :-)

I'll do you a deal ancientsgamer. You let me know what you think a reasonable, living salary is for working five to seven days a week full-time – not part-time with a back-up job – selling AB Figures. Assuming our levels of what is reasonable are similar, I will adjust the prices of AB Figures here in the UK to get to that salary. If you love AB, you'll have no objection. :-)

Ian

I never mix units and try not to mix manufacturers in national armies. I have not problem with a British Army being Essex and a Prussian Old Glory army.

Thanks for all the tips and the review page. BIG HELP!

Ian,

Easy now, someone has to have the higher price, don't they? Part of the problem with your pricing is import duties and the fact that the U.S. dollar isn't what it used to be ;-)

As to a living wage, etc. It seems to me that other companies also have a full time business and are doing fine at a lower price point.

By the way, I have AB Romans and will be buying AB Napoleonics down the road. So I will be supporting your 'living' wage ;-)

As to a living wage, etc. It seems to me that other companies also have a full time business and are doing fine at a lower price point.

Chicken! :-) My point is actually that I don't earn a reasonable living wage for a full-time job. I would like to. :-)

Your assumption is flawed. Other businesses do not produce figures on the same basis. Many figures businesses pay freelance sculptors a piece rate for masters and have no long-term costs associated with each figure, or are businesses run by sculptors who cast their own figures. AB is different: sculptor Tony Barton licenses his ranges to be produced and is paid a royalty for each figure that is made. Now that he's not as in good health as he was, it's a pretty sensible approach as it guarantees him an income even though his sculpting output has fallen.

The royalty, of course, increases the base cost of figures.

Here in the UK, a lousy exchange rate with the artificially high Australian dollar (Eureka in Oz is the licence holder for 15mm AB) plus 20% VAT are factors that merely don't help much. :-)

Regards, Ian

Those old Minifigs stick figures have a charm all thier own!

You might not be able to mix them in a unit, but you might be able to mix them in an army.

Figures are very much a matter of taste. Personalyy, I have some problems with OG15, especially for the 7YW. But that is a matter of taste.

First let me say I had quite a collection of Heritage Naps, back in the day (as well as their Ancients), and I loved them. They were indeed small, but if someone could find the molds and start casting, they would be all I'd have.

That said, today I think AB is the best out there. A good variety of poses (I hate being stuck with March Attack.), and you can buy any quantity you like. They tend toward the 18mm size, but fit well with Old Glory…. at least the OG I bought years ago.

I needed some Polish Lancers with czapskas, so I ordered some Fantassin figures. They are on a par with the AB figs, but you must order from Spain. If you have the time, they're worth the wait.

Don

When I got back into the hobby 15 years ago I started with Minifigs 15mm. I had their catalogue so stupidly didn't look any further. When I tried Battle Honours as I liked them and they seemed a perfect match size wise with Minifigs.

The problem with the BH figures is some of the moulds were shot to bits. I've no idea if they have been replaced now.

Then of course as I got more into the hobby I discovered AB. Since then I've only bought AB. I only buy in small batches as I can only paint so many at a time so the cost doesn't put me off. I wanted what I consider to be the best figures. After all I spend an inordinate amount of my life painting them I simply couldn't see the point in working on anything but the best castings. YMMV.

Extra-Crispy's review page is very helpful and highly recomended.

ABs are by far the finest 15-18mm miniatures out there. You get what you pay for,..

AB are quite superb 18's. They are not very good 15s at all

The ABs are great because there is enough detail to really make your figures standout but they are not too big. Much easier then painting 25/28mm.

The OG 15s were nice. Ive painted and sold thousands and thousands of them. The only dissapointing thing about them, for me at least, was a lack of attractive French infantry. The other armies were good, particularly the Brits, who are sculpted in a much more angular, crisp style then the French. There are just some weird choices in the French packs. Like the giant slobbish soldier with a moustache and a beer gut. He reminds me of Ron Jeremy. And there were several of him in the one bag- I think the HQ bag for the French in dress uniform. The 1809 French in campaign dress were, for my money the best option. I loved painting those guys- tons of character. They were much, much smaller than the dress guys if I remember, so you couldnt really mix them. All of the cavalry are great though.

AB are nice but for the price Id sooner have Blue Moon figs. They're just as good for gaming and basic painting. The other issue I have with AB is that the figs have 0 animation. A table of them all painted up nicely is alright, but not really exciting IMHO. They're all sort of just standing there.

I nearly finished painting my Russian Uhlans and was looking more closely at the Dragoons and Artillery. The castings are terrible. I wonder if these are old stock. The best way to describe the look of the castings is to say they have a grainy appearance. They lack the nice clean crisp look of the OG figures. Is this comman?

Dave
ABQ

AB are nice but for the price Id sooner have Blue Moon figs. They're just as good for gaming and basic painting.

I have a mix of ABs and Blue Moon. I used to mix with Fantassin / Warmodeller, but find the BM minis nicer and cheaper to purchase.

The other issue I have with AB is that the figs have 0 animation. A table of them all painted up nicely is alright, but not really exciting IMHO. They're all sort of just standing there.

Must disagree. The bulk are in 'March Attack' pose, (which is what you want) and with some 'enthusiastic' chaps thrown in they look outstanding. Yes, some are just standing there, but that's fine by me. The firing and skirmishing poses are also there, so I'm not sure what your justification for that comment is.
Cheers

"The other issue I have with AB is that the figs have 0 animation. A table of them all painted up nicely is alright, but not really exciting IMHO. They're all sort of just standing there."

Well there are a few guys, that make the "Zero" animation look pretty good!!

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link

So you either do as Paul does or do "March Attack" the choice is yours. AB's are the best out there, granted you pay for it. Also show me another line whose horses come close to the AB's horses.

John

Excellent work!!!

In the general direction of Fighting 15s:

I don't think anyone is claiming that AB prices are inflated without a business need, I think people are stating that the competition in question (Blue Moon & OG15s) 60% the cost and that makes AB less price competitive. [At least this is what I am saying and I hope it is what others intend as well]

Standard Comparison
AB – 74¢ per infantry figure
BM – 50¢ per infantry figure
OG15s – 40¢ per infantry figure

Discounted Comparison
AB – 74¢ per infantry figure (no discounts available)
BM – 30¢ per infantry figure (with 40% Old Glory Card)
OG15s – 24¢ per infantry figure (40% off purchase of $400 USD)

I will state very clearly, AB can and should price their figures, however, they choose to and as they deem appropriate for their business model & needs. What comes with that is give and take in the market place based on pricing competition.

I think AB figures are very nice, there are some figures I need that no one else (yet) makes, but I have put off those purchases for quite some time because my hobby budget goes so much farther when using other brands.

Blue Moon has really brought some pricing pressure to the market place, not long ago there were the "inexpensive figures" (OG15s and BH15s) and then the "premium quality figures" (AB, CGM, Fantassin). Now Blue Moon scoped out the market and moved right into the middle between the discount figures and the premium figures, I expect the folks at Old Glory 25s who make Blue Moon are benefiting from being able to pull some market share from both the high and low of the market.

Regarding the question of pose variety, I like the animation and variation within a given pose that is more typical within OG15s & Blue Moon. Some AB figures are identical within a pose while other posts do offer more variety. This is entirely a personal preference and we (the wargaming community) obviously vary widely on it.

Cheers,

The Bandit

forwardmarchstudios wrote :

"AB are nice but for the price Id sooner have Blue Moon figs. They're just as good for gaming and basic painting. The other issue I have with AB is that the figs have 0 animation. A table of them all painted up nicely is alright, but not really exciting IMHO. They're all sort of just standing there.
"

I cannot agree, did you ever look at their Mamelucks or cossacks, great animation.

Otherwise – Napoleonic wars were in my view no cowboy and indian wars, units marched in line and fought very often in dense formation, therefore AB figures represent that style excellently.

What makes AB so superior, the keen eye on detail and proportion of equipment was well as excellent sculpting.

My personal feelings about AB are that they are the best figures out there – these figures are extremely detailed and well proportioned. Given how much time it takes me to paint them, and how long I plan to play with them a few cents a figure seems neither here nor there. I usually buy from eBay or in battalion or brigade packs which reduce the costs.

I'm also surprised that so many people talk about the "animation and variation within a given pose that is more typical within OG15s & Blue Moon."

Each Blue Moon pack of French Line Infantry has three poses for the fusiliers, and three poses for the elites – when I'm painting several hundred of these little blighters that doesn't seem much variation to me – you get rather more variants with AB.

I agree OGs have more variants per pack – but casting quality and soldiers "falling over" generally reduces the useful number of soldiers per pack (which would raise the cost per "usable" figure). Also the simple fact that packs within the same range vary so much in sculpting quality means I can't buy anything sight unseen.

I did a review on BM's French and British Line Infantry a few months ago:

link

Overall the French were okay and the British had issues that in my opinion should have been picked up at the point the sculptor submitted his work for casting.

BH are good – but also can be a bit variable between packs (although more in figure size than anything else).

I love old glory minis as well as the others mentioned above, I have a few AB, Battle Honors, lots of Essex "squats", but the variety of the OG line and with a good paint job make groups look awesome. People check out my figs and when you tell them their "Old Glory" they cant believe it. They look like crap in the bag but if you develop a style to paint them with they come out great and fast! Now that said there are some in the line of nap's sculpted by some others that are poor, the British come to mind….

Slightly off topic but does anyone have a list of the Russian personalities in the Old Glory 15mm from 19th century minis? I started mine primed them and now months later forgot who was who?

I love painting Napy's and do it to fit my likes and taste so some things may not be entirely correct historically but their mine!

If you buy AB figures in a large quantity you can usually do better on price, at least in the U.S.

They are the best, especially once painted by someone with real skill.

If these are Old Glory, i think these are great

Yes "Duc" they are "Old Glory" French from the post 1812 pack of French Line Advancing ( center company and Elites packs). They are quickly taken shots and they are much better in person. I have a box of unpainted weighing 20#s and am working my "weigh" through them. I have Russians, Austrians, and of course French. All three of these nationalities are well represented, have nice poses, variety, and great cast. The "variety" is subtle with just slight changes in march step, face direction or arm position for the most part with a few really different figures included like a hat off, wounded, or "hurraying" pose included. I'll post a picture or two more of some Russian's I just finished when I get a moment.

Remember the best looking miniatures are not the ones you buy but the ones you actually PAINT!…LOL!

if you develop a style to paint them with they come out great and fast!

VK, would you care to share some of your trade secrets? I like OG15s but have found their SYW Prussians a bit of a pain to paint…

Here are some recently done French Hussars. The pictures don't do them justice and I have yet to matt coat them so the flash creates white spots looking like dust or "Bad" highlighting. They do show the variety of poses in a pack. By combining the different figure poses with variations in horses and some gentle figure manipulation you can achieve a unit where figure looks different.

As far as "trade Secrets" for painting that is a bit off topic and beyond this post but, I paint horses and riders as one, I prime black, I then dry brush a off White to pick out detail and then use combos of dry brushing, washing, staining, and normal painting to give depth and blend the shades.

The buglers horse had its front legs cut and back onse bent to create the leaping horse. the figure had extensive filing under the saddle to get the figure to then sit at the right angle and not appear to be about to fall off backwards.

"I like OG15s but have found their SYW Prussians a bit of a pain to paint…"

Funny, are there any SYW figures not a pain to paint? good paint jobs always take time, no secret.

More recent "Old Glory" 15mm Napoleonics from their Russian Russian Line/Jager Defending In Greatcoat/Kwiver pack. I have an ebay bought Russian force which is the way I start many armies, it allows me get into battle fast and get a feel for the army before I start replacing or adding to them with my own painted units. I will then either sell those ebay forces or keep them as "lender" troops. These are some units painted by me about to enter "service"

I like to paint my own flags as I think it completes the "painted" unit better. I also make my own flags out of copper sheet and steel wire. This makes a very strong and durable flag and also allows me to cut flags onto regular infantry figures by cutting out the figures musket and blending in the flag pole.

A note on figure costs. I am about to invest in a new army and so I have been pricing out figures.

With the OG25s army card or plastics from Warlord/Vitrix/Perry 28s can be had for the same per figure cost as 15/18s. At least on average the prices are comparable. AB 18s are more expensive than the cheapest 28s, and the. Cheapest 15s are still cheaper per figure Han the cheapest 28s even in plastic.

The kicker is that with our club's preferred basing an army requires half as many figures in 28mm as in 15/18mm at least for infantry, about 2/3 the cavalry, and the same for artillery. I haven't crunched the numbers all the way through, but depending on the army 28mm could actually be cheaper!

Since I currently have 15mm, a mix of Battle Honours, OG15, AB and a few others I will be sticking with 15/18mm. But it was an eye opener.

It's many years since I painted up 15mm Napoleonics, my armies are made up of 2nd generation Minifigs and some 3rd, Battle Honours, Falcon figures from back in the late 80s, some Essex (I recall that their cavalry were quite compatable but not so much the infantry), some Alma figures (a lovely range produced by an ex-serviceman living in Germany back around 1990 – don't know what became of them) and Old Glory.
The ranges back then that I thought didn't mix were Jacobite, Chariot, Naismith, Gladiator, the old Tabletop games, and a some I can't even recall now.
A few years I bought all the AB French command figures, but sold them here I believe. I thought they were superb figures but for me too big for my own collection.
If I were starting out as a newbie,as posted by HandLCreator, I think there are a number of basic considerations that all wargamers should bear in mind. Are you going to paint the figures yourself or get them professionally painted. If like most of us, you are going to do it yourself, do you want to go for superb figures or en masse – we are not all brilliant painters, and I include myself in this.
Another point is what size of armies do you propose to field. There are so many different rule sets and so many different ways to recreate your armies on the tabletop. One of the infuriating things I have always found about wargaming is that they all look so good in different ways, and you are often seized with the urge to rebase an entire collection. If you intend to aim for very large armies then, in practical terms, will you have the time(or your eyesight hold out) to paint thousands of figures to museum standard.
As detailed above cost is a significant factor depending on what size of armies you are aiming for.
Personally, if I was starting out again in 15mm and wanted large armies, I would go with Old Glory, knowing that I could, if I really wanted, mix in other manufacturers. Artillery guns are often tricky between ranges, crew less so. I don't know anything about Fantassin or some of the other newer makes, but I would imagine they might mix ( a few samples never go amiss).
If I was going to go for a small figure ratio, still had eyes that worked up close and thought I could do them justice, I'd probably go for AB, and use some of the basing skills acquired over the years – but sadly missing in the early days, to make vignette style bases for them all!

Von Kluge, those post 1812 French Line look very nice – I have some of the 1809 Full Dress French Line and they are very nice too. But I thought the 1809 Campaign Dress French were pretty ropey looking and the Austrians In Helmet Road March were dreadful – but the guy who bought them from on eBay was very happy with them. My problem with Old Glory is that unless I have the bag in my hand I now won't buy – the ranges are so variable in sculpting quality that you are taking pot luck. And once you strip out the figures falling over etc then the number of usable figures per bag is a bit less than what you've paid for. And I don't think you can use the OG loyalty card in the UK.

Having said that Paul Alba has produced some very nice regiments featuring OG figures too link – but I think you are still down to range variation with OG.

Fantassin (Warmodelling) I'd avoid because of quality variation between figures in the same bag, even where the figures are good they seem to have small packs compared to AB or OG. Also because the metal is a B***** to cut or file when there is flash or casting issues.

Blue Moon – based on the four packs I've bought are okay figures and will paint up okay. But I was unimpressed that you only get three pose variants in the rank and file packs for the line infantry. Having seen their ACW packs I was expecting more poses.

My personal conviction is that because AB figures are well made, and sculpted with such clean detail they make the painting a much easier job. And they also make you feel you need to try and do them justice.