wrgmr1 | 09 Sep 2012 1:34 p.m. PST |
Early uniforms of the Chasseurs à Cheval have the colors reversed. However this Waterloo period website has them in green with decorations on the sleeves and front. link My question is when did they change? I am painting up figures for Borodino 1812. |
12345678 | 09 Sep 2012 2:03 p.m. PST |
The change came in with the 1812 Bardin uniform reforms. The majority of units at Borodino would have been in the old uniforms as it seems likely that only Davout's corps was reuniformed in time for the Russian campaign, and even then probably not completely. |
Artilleryman | 09 Sep 2012 2:45 p.m. PST |
Colin is correct. To add to that, the 'green with decorations on the sleeves and front' was the Imperial Livery introduced by the Bardin regulations and was supposed to be worn by drummers and trumpeters in all line regiments, horse and foot. |
wrgmr1 | 09 Sep 2012 3:06 p.m. PST |
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Seroga | 09 Sep 2012 6:51 p.m. PST |
Colin, "seems likely that only Davout's corps was reuniformed in time for the Russian campaign" Dear colleague, I have often seen this. But, from what source or line of reasoning does it come? The Bardin regulations were decreed on 19 January (definitive order of the Ministry of War Administration on 17 February). But the illustrations, samples and tables of costs/allowances were completed through the Spring and into the Summer. The first printing of the Masses d'Habillement was in June. But it lacked the Tariffs which had not been decreed yet. These came out 1 August circulaire (definitive 12 September) for small clothes and 13 September circulaire (definitive 17 September) for items made of draps, tricots, etc. And after that for Harnachement (but these were unchanged by Bardin, it was just re-pricing). The Masses d'Habillement were then reprinted in October, with the new Tariffs added as appendices. I am looking at scan of it to get these dates and orders correctly reported here. The circulaire of 8 April ordered the delivery of detailed pattern and other documentation to the regiments. Specifically, we might look at the circulaire of 12 April that specifically states that the décret of 19 January is to in effect only from 1 January 1813 Davout's Corps was moving from late February 1812. So they would have had to be re-uniformed on the march and without the usual documentation. It could have happened, but why do we think it did happen? Thanks in advance! |
Artilleryman | 10 Sep 2012 1:30 a.m. PST |
I am with Seroga on this. All the sources I have ever come across suggest that the new uniform did not appear until 1813 and was not widespread until 1814. Indeed with the mass rush to the Eagles in 1815 it is entirely possible that some pre-1812 uniforms were still being worn on the battlefield. |
Rod MacArthur | 10 Sep 2012 2:37 a.m. PST |
Also there may have been resistance from some Regimental colonels to such a change. The reversed colours were a distinctive feature and the move to the same uniform for all trumpeters would not have been popular. Cavalry regiments (in most nations) tend to ignore such centralised changes for as long as they can get away with it. Rod |
Seroga | 10 Sep 2012 6:54 a.m. PST |
I really wasn't disagreeing with Colin, but just asking where this idea, which I have heard many times before, comes from or got started. |
Austin Rob | 10 Sep 2012 7:58 a.m. PST |
I too have seen the assertion that Davout's corps was dressed in Bardin, but with no attribution. |
12345678 | 11 Sep 2012 10:49 a.m. PST |
Seroga, I have been searching my notes and files for the source of the claim concerning Davout's corps and the Bardin uniforms. I can find nothing so have to agree that it is an unsupported claim; however, I do have a recollection that I found something about it at Vincennes, but I could be wrong. |
Seroga | 12 Sep 2012 10:36 a.m. PST |
Colin, I do not think "unsupported" is a good description. It is more like "the source has been forgotten, becasue we all know about it". But do we "really" know? There are many items in this era that fall into that category. Some turn out to be rather mythical, or even period propoganda. Others turn out to be completely justified. Please forgive me the personal comment, but I really respect your research and your posts here. So, I was hoping you would be the one to (re-)discover the source for this. By the way, orders to make up Bardin uniforms in Hamburg (the rear depot for Ier corps) I think I have seen (Davout Correspondence ?). But these would be for 1813. From March 1812 the main depot was displaced east to Stralsund in formerly Swedish Pomerania – not so easy to get uniforms made there. :-) |
von Winterfeldt | 12 Sep 2012 11:41 a.m. PST |
The claim that Davout's corps had Bardin uniforms is a myth, one brings it up – other repeats it without checking. The Bardin coats comes up middle and late 1813, a good discussion in this is in – Napoleon's Last Grande Armée. The only Bardin style uniforms – which might have been worn are those of the lancers converted from dragoons. The original French coats captured in 1812 – and stored in the Russian depots were all pre Bardin. About the Chasseurs a Cheval, I would go for reversed colours in 1812. 1815 is an entirely different topic, nobody can be sure what coats were worn, the old green Bardin one – or already the royal (blue) ones – or what?? |
wrgmr1 | 23 Sep 2012 2:53 p.m. PST |
Thanks again! I went with reversed colors. |