"Quick "Ethics" Question, Please" Topic

Some may have seen a post from me on some other boards about this project. However, if not, I'm trying to build a couple of actual gaming "armies" in 54mm (200-300 figures total) for the Muslim Dynasties into the 3rd Crusade. I can find many of the correct figures for Cavalry, Knights, Spearmen, Skirmishers with javelin, etc., but very few proper archers or crossbowmen, and no pose variation. So, to the question:

If I do a "drastic" conversion (lower body from figure A, upper from figure B, head from figure C, sculpt new arms, add weapons of my own making, modify the parts previously described with green stuff), can I cast these strictly for my own use without being concerned with piracy. Many of the original plastic figures that I have for raw parts are re-casts to begin with of long OoP figure ranges. I am thinking of casting the figures in resin and then adding the weapons cast from metal (my own masters).

Your thoughts please.

Bill
Sir William the Aged

It's for you only, you're doing all that mod work, no issue if it were my figs.

Seems fine with me.

Legally, no, you're still using work to which you have no right or ownership.

I have to put forth the negative view here.
You could, after all, sculpt arms and weapons independently, cast these, and then use purchased figures to do the conversions, correct? If so, then by recasting the figures yourself, however altered, you would inherently be depriving the makers of the purchases which otherwise you would be making. Since the latter is the case, the ethical response is that you cannot do the recasting.

The standard isn't convenience or expense to you, or if the designs are OoP, or even whether or not you would resell them. The standard is are the original figs the design property of someone else. If so, then you cannot copy or recast that design, even in an altered form, even for your own use.

I ask out of ignorance. But isn't there some kind of time limit? Like on music. Or are ad agencies paying royalties on music in commercials?

Unless it's considered an industrial design. That's how Andrew Ainsworth is able to sell stormtrooper armor without paying royalties to George Lucas:

link

Of course, I doubt George paid any royalties for the assorted Revell and Monogram parts that went into the starship designs for the original trilogy, either.

The other *really weird* part of copyright law is that it pretty much lets you do whatever you want as long as nobody objects in civil court. The most insidious part of the law is that an undefended property becomes public domain, which is why big corporations jump on folks for stuff that even smells like one of their trademarks in addition to going after legitimate infringement.

I think you are fine sice your work is

Transformative
Uses minimal parts of copyrighted works
Does not affect the market of the original. Making a bowman from a spearman does not affect those wanting the original spearmen.

Go for it!

This guy was of the same mindset as you Sir William. A smart man learns from OTHERS mistakes.

link

Free legal advice!
Get your free legal advice, right here on TMP!
Worth every penny you paid for it.

I take it he sold those posters, legally that is a whole different thing. Poster only wants to use minis for himself and not sell or give them away.

Bottom line is, "Don't even THINK about trying to sell anything."

If it is for your own use and you are not selling them, you are fine (artistic license – and recent US patent law would support this)

Just remember what the OFM said!

I thought he asked for moral and ethical advice not legal.

Gentlemen;

Thank you all for the opinions. No problem with the advice John, I have an actual paid attorney that I would use if I felt it necessary. And Bill, I understand your position on this (shared by some others). I probably didn't phrase the question as well as I should have.

Premise: Since much of the plastic "stock" that I am using is already re-cast OoP, and literally every seller claims to have the exclusive rights to re-cast and sell these (multiple vendors, same product), where is the somewhat fuzzy and moving line?

Example A: I know that both Ron Barzo and Richard Conte sculpt and cast their own creative product (or pay sculptors). I would never dream of copying or re-casting any of their products without express written consent, even for my personal use.

Example B: Multiple vendors sell re-casts of 1960's and 1970's Mark, Ideal, Reamsa, Jecsan and even Airfix figures. I have seen various ads and listings claiming "exclusive rights" to these re-casts. The odds are that every vendor has not purchased or obtained the written legal right to produce these figures, and obviously they can't all be "exclusive" (except for maybe the color of plastic they use).

I am only talking about using parts of figures from Example B, combining them into new poses or even new figures, then adding all detail with my own sculpting and castings derived from my own sculpting (weapons, shields and equipment). So, is this a black & white issue, or is their sufficient gray area to either ignore the ethical issue or should I stick more to Parzival's definition (which I can see the logic of).

Bill
Sir William the Aged

Bill;
You can contact me on a diff Group you know.

Bottom line, seems you are fine to do so. At least if it was from Uncle Sugar's perspective.

But that's my two shillings worth from where I sit.

Eric

My legal advice is worth what you pay for it, or even less if it is wrong, which is quite possible since I am not a lawyer.

However it seems to me in Example B you are making three assumptions you don't actually know are true. The first is that a court of law would find the same truth as you from the same facts. The second is that no vendor has rights to the recasts. The third is that only one vendor could possibly have rights.

It might be that any or all of those vendors can demonstrate in court that they own the rights and you have infringed. Even if you could get that overturned later, it would cost you time and money, plus ethical heartache for 1) having infringed copyright and 2) being wrong and closemindedly insisting you were right.

CerLucifus;

As stated, I am not seeking, nor taking, legal advice; I have an attorney for that. I am concerned about the ethical advice.

I think you are making some assumptions yourself about exactly what I said above. I never indicated that "no" vendor had the legal rights, nor did I indicate that it was impossible for multiple vendors to have rights. What I did state is that it is highly unlikely ("The odds are…") that multiple vendors all had "exclusive rights" to the same ranges of figures, and in several cases cast in the same "exclusive colors" of plastics (their advertising, not mine).

At least two of these vendors have told me on the phone that they were having the figures cast, which could delay an order I was placing, or that determined the pose mix of a particular lot. While this could certainly be hyperbole to give them more gravitas as "the source", how am I, or anyone, to know for sure? It is entirely possible that all of the mentioned figures are being cast in the former Eastern Bloc or China (legally or otherwise) and then sold in job lots to said retailers.

Copies, or re-casts as they are euphemistically called, seem to be quite common in the "toy soldier" world, some commanding premium prices based on color of plastic or scarcity of the set. How is the buyer, assuming they care, to determine if these are legitimate, licensed copies or not?

Also, at this point I think the fact that I am seeking counsel from those that might have already tread this trail would indicate that I am definitely not "closemindedly insisting I am right".

Bill
Sir William the Aged

You could use existing figures as sculpting dollies. Shave down what you don't need and alter the rest. I would think you would be fine as the final product would be yours. Personal use would be fine. Reselling would be a no no. Frankly, you might find that you become a decent sculptor and you could make your own in the end. I don't think that the older figures you mention are paragons of the sculpting art. Old plastic figures were great to play with and looked the part. I think newer figure lines I have seen put the older stuff to shame.

On a moral and ethical basis I think you are ok as you are not depriving anyone of a sale (you can not buy the figures you are making as no-one does them) and you are not making a profit from the figures as you are not selling them afterwards.

Many companies today use wheels from commercial models/toys in their own brand of vehicle, you can see parts of household objects used in many sci-fi buildings, plasticard and other commercial products are used in the making of original wargames toys all the time but no-one questions the ethics of that.

Legally?
No idea; ethically, I think sound.

well sir. if your in the US you need only change the work 10% (that is removing 10% or more and making new, not just adding things to a whole work)and it is legally a new work. and it sounds like your well into the 50% or more range. I went through this in a court room with another artiest vs a casting company that had me rework a 14" movie monster kit. (as in it needed a new head and arms and other details added.) they want to use as much of the old molds as they could but get a new looking work.

oh yea they did all this so they could get him off their books. he kept saying he was not getting all the money they owed him for sales of said monster. Later the artiests own bookkeepers found that he was over payed by $200.00 USD :) Shows you should be happy with what you have.

If you're going thought that much work, why not start from scratch and avoid the issues?

Otherwise, I'd seek permission from the copyright owner.