"One or Two Flags for Early War Prussian Battalions?" Topic

Hello.

I am asking a somewhat historical and somewhat personal preference question.

Prussian battalions during the 1806-1807 period carried two flags (as I understand it from Osprey #152: Prussian Line Infantry 1792-1815).

I play 1:60… that means battalions are 9-15 figures depending on the battle and the unit in question.

Recently I learned that Blue Moon's packaging supports this as Musketeer Command packs come with:

4 flag bearers
2 officers
2 NCOs
2 drummers

i.e. two complete sets of command based around two flags per battalion.

So my question to you is in two parts:

1) Does anyone have an academic opinion on how many flags were typically carried (since there is lots of variation, is this something that did vary or has your research shown they carried two flags predominately / always)?

2) Does anyone who plays a similar scale (1:50, 1:60, 1:75 or anything similar) fly two flags per battalion?

My present leaning is against doing so as that would mean in a 9 figure battalion you'd have 4 Musketeers and 5 command figures but I am curious what others do.

Cheers,

The Bandit

DME,
Always 2 flags per Battaliom. As I play rules at 1:20, the 2 flags looks good. I can't help you on the other question, but 2 flags might be a little too much for a 9 figure battalion.

John

2 flags might look a bit much I think.

Accurate – but probably too many flags.

Here are my 1:60 battalions – Only 1 flag per regiment (1st Bn), and a balance of figs including mounted brigade commander / regimental colonel, and battalion gun.

Overall effect of multiple regiments looks balanced enough for me.

I have 1:50 battalions and I carry two flags whenever I can! They look good!

Go with 2 flags. You will not be disappointed.

I give every 12 figures a flag and i Play with 12 figures per Bataillon, i.e. The Bataillon carries the leibfahne and if i have two Bataillons (24 figs) the Second Bataillon has the regimentsfahne. As i have them single mounted in movement trays i can Place them next to each other if i put them in a 24 movement tray.

link

Here a link with Prussian regimentsfahnen.

Greetings

To answer the academic question. The Prussians post about 1787 were reduced to two flags per battalion rather than one per company (5 flags) as they had used during the seven years war.

The 1st battalion had the Leibfahne/Colonel's flag (white field) and a Ordinarfahne/previously called Kompaniefahne,

The 2nd Battalion had two ordinarfahne. These were the same as under Frederick the Great. Some had been re-issued so had different corner cyphers.

I have just finished my book on the 7YW Prussian Musketeer Regiments with all the flags drawn. Should be going to printers next month.

Stephen

Bandit, I share your aesthetic hesitation about two colours for 9 figures, however the solution may be to increase the latter? Can't access my books these days but less than 600 men per battalion seems rather weak. From memory, Prussian battalions had around 800 men or more, so 12 or even 15 figures may be in order, for which two colours would look perfectly proper.

Should memory have let me down and 9 figures be the right number, then perhaps two battalions as Rudi suggests, with the officer in the first one with the Leibfahne, the NCO in the second?

Musketier:

I build from historical OBs for the most part, at 1:60 for an early war sampling:

Jena – average infantry unit is 12 figures, some high, some low (345 infantry figures in 26 battalions)
Auerstädt – average infantry unit is 12 figures, some high, some low (896 infantry figures in 73 battalions)
Eylau – all infantry regiments are at or below 9 figures

Cheers,

The Bandit

Yes that would figure – no pun intended. With the 12 figure units of 1806, two colours ought to look good. Rather than having one command base, put them on neighbouring ends of two three-figure bases, and you can take one out for the Eylau line-up?

I should clarify, the OBs I am drawing those numbers from I made myself:

Jena & Auerstädt drawn up from Osprey book Napoleon Destroys Prussia
Eylau drawn up from Arnold's Crisis in the Snows

I converted the strengths given to 1:60. Now, the important part is that quite a few of the units are whole regiments, not battalions.

For instance the Right Wing (1st Division) at Jena was composed of grenadier units. It was two brigades, half grenadiers and half musketeers.

Strengths are as follows:

Grenadier Battalion Hahn #29; 9/-, 12 figures
Grenadier Battalion Sack #33; 9/-, 15 figures
Grenadier Battalion Hahn #2; 9/-, 15 figures
Grenadier Battalion Sack #47; 9/-, 15 figures
Hohenlohe #32 Musketeers; 6/-, 15 figures
Grawert #37 Musketeers; 6/-, 15 figures
Zastrow #39 Musketeers; 6/-, 15 figures
Sanitz #50 Musketeers; 6/-, 15 figures

The four musketeer regiments would actually be of two battalions, so while the grenadier battalions are around 15 figures the musketeer battalions around half that.

This is very typical for the 1806 army.

Battalion strengths are even lower for the Russians in 1807, by Eylau basically every battalion is only 6 figures at 1:60 (~360 men).

It is curious how much we round toward everything 12 figures (in the 1:60 world) when really there was quite a bit of meaningful variation shifting high and low by 25+%

I'm going to go with one flag per unit as Rudi suggests.

Cheers,

The Bandit

I'd always go with two flags.

However, remember that Prussian grenadier battalions did not carry flags.

R Mark Davies,

For what years did the grenadiers not carry flags? Was this also true of the fusiliers?

I read in Osprey Flags of the Napoleonic Wars 2 #78

"Under the regulations of 27 November 1807 the new issue was two per musketeer battalion, but no flags were issued to grenadier or fusilier battalions. However, by 1812 grenadier battalions were carrying flags and the fusiliers of the Garde-Grenadiers received flags in 1814."

But that was as of 27 November of 1807. Building forces for 1806 through summer of 1806 may differ.

The same book also states:

"Prior to 1807 each infantry regiment had two flags per battalion, the first flag of the 1st Battalion being the Leibfahne, the battalion's second flag and both flags of the 2nd Battalion being Regimentersfahnen."

Now, does that only refer to musketeer regiments? The grenadiers didn't carry a flag from fall 1807 until sometime about 1812. Did the grenadiers carry a flag before 1807? What about the fusilier & jäger regiments?

Cheers,

The Bandit

DME,
No flags for Grenadiers,Fusiliers, or Jaegers in 1806-1807.

For some reason even AB produces standard bearers for the Jena Grenadiers.

The book refers only to the musketeer regiments.

John

The grenadier battalions only started carrying flags after the reorganisation of 1807, sorry. The fuesilier battalions never carried flags.

Prior to the 1780s, flags were issued to the five musketeer companies in each battalion (which were grouped together at the centre of the battalion), but none to the grenadier companies. This was then rationalised to two flags per musketeer battalion. In 1807 the flags were rationalised again as a post-war austerity measure, with one flag being given to each musketeer battalion and to each combined grenadier battalion. None were issued to the fuesilier battalions.

Tony B mistakenly did a grenadier standard bearer due to the existence of the 6th 'Grenadier-Garde' Infantry Regiment and the III/15th 'Garde' Infantry Regiment, which had the historical title of 'Garde-Grenadier-Bataillon'. However, he didn't realise at the time that while these regiments had the historical title of 'grenadier', their centre companies wore hats and not grenadier caps (they retained their old mitre caps for palace ceremonial dress).

The mistake was soon realised, but some customers like standard bearers for all units, regardless of historical facts, so it was left in the range. As AB only sold figures individually, it didn't really matter, as customers could choose whether or not to have them. It REALLY annoys me when companies force you to buy packs and include non-historical standard bearers in command packs (or none at all where they should have them).

I should add that I'm pleased to say that Fighting 15s worked it out and don't therefore include the grenadier standard bearer figure in the AB grenadier command packs or grenadier battalion packs.

:o)

To both R Mark Davies & John,

Thank you very much for the clarifications!

Cheers,

The Bandit

No worries. However, I've just noticed something in your earlier list of the regiments that is a trap for the unwary:

You only list a single number against each of the 1806 grenadier battalions. However, each grenadier battalion (with one or two exceptions) was formed from the grenadiers of two regiments (two companies from each constituent regiment), so each battalion should have two numbers listed, along with the name of the battalion commander.

The reason this matters is that the two contingents in each battalion would have different uniforms, as they came from two different regiments.

The Prussian grenadier battalions at Jena were:

Borstell (10/14)
Hellmann (9/44)
Herwarth (45) – Half-Battalion: only two companies of IR 45.
Hahn (29/32)
Sack (33/47)

R Mark Davies,

Yes, I am aware of what you are talking about. What I didn't mention above and perhaps should have elaborated on is that there were actually more battalion level formations at Jena & Auerstädt than I noted when I gave numbers but in some cases I will only be putting regiments on the table (rather than the same broken into two battalions) because the battalions would be so small so as to be combat ineffective at the scale of rules being used, i.e. there is some consolidation of units for practicality.

I will however, double-check my OB against what you just posted in case I did miss some.

Cheers,

The Bandit

I should also say that I reconsidered and went with two flags per battalion when it came to mounting the figures on bases yesterday. I think it will look sharp considering that so many other units will not be carrying banners of any kind.

For my French I put one flag with each battalion regardless but I think this will look good. Congrats to those who convinced me.

I paint my own flags and don't plan on posting photos of these Prussians until I get around to painting flags for them and flocking their bases. I have about 360 Russians in the same condition, prepping all of this for some games this fall so in the coming couple of months I should get flags and flocking done.

I'll try to remember to link from here for any who are interested in how they turned out.

Thanks again!

Cheers,

The Bandit

Prussian Musketeer Regiments of the War of Austrian Succession and the Seven Years War. The 1806 regiments retained their flags from Frederick the Great.
Ken Trotman Publishing
link

Somewhere, I can't remember where, I got the impression that Prussian Grenadier Battalions carried a pennant or a fanion of some kind. I believe they were triangular. Is this correct?

in 7YW the 3 oldes NCOs of a grenadier company did carry a so called pike which was about 13 Prussian feet long – about 4 m !!!

When I was still doing 1/ 72 I did some conversions which give an idea

When FW 2 re organised the infantry those very long grenadier pikes were abolished and all grenadier NCOs did carry the conventional 9 Prussian feet and 9 Prussian inch one, not that short, so the AB colour bearer could be used as such an NCO

In the 7YW some of those NCOs equipped with the long pike were placed in the center of the battlion to act as "colour" substitued, no pennats or fanions (other than camp fanions) were used by Prussian grenadiers

Does this no pennant of fanion for Grenadiers stand for the 1806 Prussian army?

yes – also for the 7yw