"Legere Pom Poms" Topic

Hello,

Did the chasseurs in legere battalions follow the same Pom-pom color scheme as the Ligne battalions?

1st co – Dark Green
2nd co – Sky Blue
3rd co – Orange/Pink
4th co – Violet

Also, for the voltigeurs in Legere battalions, did their plume follow the red pom-pom with green on bottom yellow on top plume?

I have seen a number of pictures showing voltigeurs with red plume with a yellow top – what does this indicate?

Alot of the legere pompoms and uniforms was left ruffly to the CO's discretion, provided they dont go too wild from the regulations. For the light company/volitguers there was a lot of license in both ligne and legere, as with the band – if the CO and his sponsores had cash available then the uniforms were flamboyant; if not they were more consevative. After 1812 the later is more the case.

This French pompom thing is troublesome.

For the later organization of 1808 (6 compagnies per bataillon), the pompoms were specificed in a circulaire in November 1810, confirmed in February 1811.

grenadiers/carabiniers : rouge – red, more a scarlet/orange red than a crimson/purple red
1re fusiliers/chasseurs : vert fonce – dark green, like French dragoon/chasseur a cheval uniform costs
2e fusiliers/chasseurs : bleu céleste – literally sky blue, but rather darker than we might think of today
3e fusiliers/chasseurs : aurore – literaly the color of the dawning sun, a light golden yellow with a touch of pink
4e fusiliers/chasseurs : violette : lierally violet, rather a dark purple
voltiguers : jaune – yellow, rather a pure yellow without any orange, perhaps a bit pale by modern standards

Before this, the prior specificification of the pompoms was in February 1808:
grenadiers/carabiniers : rouge
1re fusiliers/chasseurs : bleu de roi – the dark blue of the uniform coats
2e fusiliers/chasseurs : aurore
3e fusiliers/chasseurs : violette
4e fusiliers/chasseurs : cramoisie – crimson, a dark, slightly puplish red
voltiguers : jaune – yellow

One will note that with a bit of wear and fading, the difference between (rouge and cramoisie) and (violette and bleu de roi) and (aurore and jaune) might tend to disappear. So, these were maybe not so useful choices. The 1810 colors seem alot more practical to me.

Before 1808, the next prior specification of the pompoms was in 1786! And this was for a regiment of two battalions each of 5 compagnies.
However, it is interesting because of the assignment of colors :

1er bataillon :
compagnie de grenadiers : écarlate
1re fusiliers : bleu de roi
2e fusilers : aurore
3e fusilers : violette
4e fusilers : cramoisie
2e bataillon :
compagnie de chasseurs : verte
1re fusiliers : bleue de roi avec centre blanc
2e fusiliers : aurore avec centre blanc
3e fusiliers : violette avec centre blanc
4e fusiliers : cramoisie avec centre blanc

So, with the battalion organization changed in 1791 to 1 compagnies of grenadiers + 8 compagnies of fusiliers (and noting that the same colors were used in the same order 1808-1810), I thnk we can take the de facto "standard" as :
grenadiers/carabiniers : rouge
1-4 compagnies of fusiliers/chasseurs : as in 1786 and 1808
5-8 compagnies of fusiliers/chasseurs : as for 1-4 compagnies, but with white centers (like the 2e bataillons of 1786).

When ligne regiments formed more or less ad hoc chasseur compagnies (1792 to 1804), it is no surprise to see them assign green as the distinctive (as this was correct per the prior regulations).

When we see the creation of voltiguers, establishing officially the former compagnies of chasseurs, their distinctive is given as jaune – yellow, but the pompom is not officially specified, and so various choice of green, yellow and even green+yellow were natural.

Since there had been no direction since 1786, and since the whole world had changed (as well as bataillon organization), and since pompom and similar decorations were to some extent in the province of the colonel, there was great variation. Common local choices : chasseurs in légère regiments all with green pompoms (their "correct" color per 1786 regulations), all fusiliers in ligne regiments all with blue, the same with white center and a company number, tricolor designs (especially in ex- Garde nationale bataillions), etc., etc., etc.

Lastly, anyone attached to the état-major should have had a white pompom – "should" of course, does not mean "did".

Great information, Saroga. Printed, also saved to a Word file for future use.

Rousselot shows a voltigeur of the 2eme Leger, 1808-10, with the bottom 20% of his plume yellow, the top 80% scarlet – no pompom. For 1810-12, he shows a yellow ball, bottom 20% of blume scarlet, top 80% yellow. The latter figures has yellow shako bands top and bottom, and side chevrons. Rather gaudy!

3rd Leger, 1807-08: no ball, all green plume with tip yellow. Earliest shako.

16eme Leger, 1807-08: yellow ball. tall green plume with top 20% yellow. Yellow top band on shako, white cords!!

17eme Leger, 1810-1812: no ball. bottom half green, top half red. An odd presentation, as all the unit has scarlet turnbacks. The Chasseurs have a single crossbelt for pouch and bayonet, as line fusiliers, and no "hairbrush" epaulettes!

I don't remember others as my "stuff" is packed away. Do you have any specific leger regiments with the red ball, green bottom, yellow top plume? Or specific units with red plume with at yellow top? If they served in Spain, I'd like to do them!!

GdeP

Red, added to yellow to show both "light" and "élite" is quite natural. I should have mentioned it.

I really don't keep a list of these "variations" for Spain, my French are 1812+ and per the circulaire de novembre 1810.

The Rousselot variations are, of course, much after the fact. However, he likely tried to find an example or something for each of them. "Likely", not "surely".
The Boisellier are reputed to be as drawn from life by an original source, "El Guil". There is a huge Spain set, recently linked here on TMP. Not that I can find it now. But, I bet you already had this one.

Mr. Seroga,
You are definitely a very welcomed edition to TMP. Your research and information is excellent and deeply appreciated.
Thank you, from Texas!

Пожалуйста – из Санкт-Петербурга!
{that's "You're welcome" or "My pleasure, from St.-Peterbsburg!"}

I really like TMP!
:-)

Seroga,
Thanks. The first documeted evidence of what I thought, finally someone I can blame for my figures when everyone disagres.

A very big thank you for that information Seroga, it's a real treasure trove. I've never come across the earlier pompom colours before and I see I now have some re-painiting to do! Could you tell me what the source is for the 1808 and 1786 colours? I've not been able to find them in any of my reference books or uniform plates, English or French.

I think I am going to be touching up the pom poms on the light infantry unit I am painting at the moment.

My unit at present has green pom poms for centre companies yellow for voltiguers and red for carabiniers

What about turn backs, I have painted my unit with French blue turnbacks with white edging. Is this right ?

Wayne,
"I think I am going to be touching up the pom poms on the light infantry unit I am painting at the moment."

I would not think you need to do this ….. there was such variation. And your choice is not at all odd or strange – you are a rather typical colonel for the légère it appears!
:-)

Your "turnbacks" (I am sorry, but in English you mean the part like lapels, not the part folded back on the tails of the coat, yes ?) seem perfectly standard to me. The part like lapels is always thus I think.

=======================

M le duc de Broglie,
"and I see I now have some re-painiting to do"
Same for you. There was no effort to enforce or even communicate the 1786 [!] regulations after the Révolution. I really think pompoms was a complete non-issue until 1813, when standardization on the Bardin standards began to become part of the equation. And by then, the French had lots of other problems to worry about, and the idea of standardizing (which seemed do-able in 1810 when the idea arose) was pretty much overtaken by events (you know, losing almost the whole army in Russia, for example – defending the country from invasion, anothe example).

The regulations are pretty well known …. I had them in my notes, but a quick Google search in French gave me these links:
Here is from the Sausanne on Infanterie:
link
A long discussion on pompoms :
link

Also, there was good coverage of the topic by Michel Pétard in Traditión NºNº 11, 13 & 30.

Many thanks again for that most useful and interesting information Seroga. I've had to have a complete re-think on pompom colours (I know this sounds geekish!): for example, I hadn't realised that the pompoms on bicornes were also company coloured. I actually had a couple of those Petard articles but didn't think to consult them, as I didn't realise the 1786 regulations were not superseded till 1810! Thanks for an excellent contribution to TMP information.