"what are the hottest sci-fi battle games?" Topic

I'm thinking 28mm, possible to either skirmish or fight larger battles, easy to start up a group or find players, etc.

Infinity? 40K?, 5150? Warpath? What should I tell a friend to look into besides my personal interests?

Easy to find players? 40k is the obvious choice if that's the priority.

Could also just be a game that is easy to get started like Warpath (free rules, fast to learn, etc)

FUBAR rules, since they are free, and quite good.

You can use any sized figs you prefer.

I'm w/Mako11. I've played FUBAR a couple of times and have enjoyed them. I hope to utilize the rules a lot more.

Ted

Infinity might be something easy to start a group for. You don't need many models to play, a basic set will certainly be enough to start with. The rules are cinematic and interesting. It is a very much a skirmish game.

The only downside is that you are going to need a fair amount of terrain coverage to get your first game together.

If you have the space hulk tiles though you can play some good games on those.

Another vote for FUBAR for larger scope games (30+) figures.

Infinity is a definite for 10 figs or so.

As Pictors says, Infinity needs plentiful terrain although we use the same table layouts for FUBAR and Infinity with great games of both.

Boths sets of rules are free so can't complain about value for money!

Tomorrow's war is pretty popular at present, but I still prefer stargrunt (free).

What is popular in your area?

Star Army's the best for solo gaming and has a pretty big following. It's my ruleset of choice.

Quadrant 13. well other thanit wont be released until the end of the month. but a light version has released a couple years ago and work well. Full up version should be great.

And, it is geared to a reenforced company a side. Rules are not hard to pick up. And it is very flexible.

I do think it is a silly name and have lobbied for a change. Hope that happens. Otherwise cant wait for the release.

owen

Pretty much what has been said already:

40K is easiest to find players but it is VERY expensive (hundreds of dollars) to play (and the gameplay is not that good). Warpath is cheaper but somewhat similar. FUBAR and Stargrunt are solid freebies and play better.

Infinity is a great game and reasonably popular. Rules are free and about $70 USD will get you a balanced "strike team."
This is my recommendation.

Tomorrow's War and 5150 Star Army are a little more niche – good games but you are less likely to find players. If you can tell your friend what to get, this isn't so much an issue.

Miniatures are the most expensive part of the exercise – 15mm sci fi by companies such as Rebel Minis, Khurasan, GZG, Critical Mass etc are very cheap compared to bigger 28mm models – $50 USD-100 buys you a complete 40k-size 'army' including lots of vehicles

Rezolution or Infinity is both good.
Mercs if fun too.

Important note about Infinity: You will need lots and LOTS of terrain. If you can draw line of sight from one side of the table to the other, you don't have enough terrain!

Also, Infinity doesn't work well with more than 20 models per side, and really works best with 10 orders (not necessarily models) per side. It doesn't scale well in numbers, and really doesn't have any rules for vehicles that are immune to rifle fire.

40k.

Everything else, no offense, really isn't even on the map.

When you've got people dressing up as your favorite "insert applicable game here" and rabid enough to actually wear it outdoors, you can claim "insert game here" is of the same popularity.

Again, not trying to pee on anyone or other product, but there is no comparison.

Agree about Infinity. The other issue is the sheer cost – everything you buy has to be new, not much of a post-Infinity/retiring gamer market out there to score a decent deal on it, so entering might seem hefty.

40k.

Dust is getting some traction here in ATL. Infinity had some traction but faded. Other rules simply aren't discussed much less played around here.

40K is the only game you'll have an easy time with finding opponents.

"Agree about Infinity. The other issue is the sheer cost – everything you buy has to be new, not much of a post-Infinity/retiring gamer market out there to score a decent deal on it, so entering might seem hefty."

Infinity rules are free, $70 USD of minis is a complete force.

Coming from someone who just recommends 40k, I found this a tad ironic. Secondhand or not, I doubt you'd get your 6th ed rulebook or current codex for under $70 USD; let alone minis.

Having a 40k advocate upbraid another game for being expensive is like having a crack addict complain about someone else's expensive coffee drinking habit…

What should I tell a friend to look into besides my personal interests?

Go with your personal interests. The idea is to play a game you enjoy and play it alongside like minded people.

You've not mentioned if you are an experience gamer or new to the idea. If completely new you may want to start out with something inexpensive and not too complicated. FUBAR is perfect for this, a squad ot 2 of figures each and perhap a vehicle. And the rules are free; Angel Barracks even has some Sci-Fi additions on his website.

There are howver many skirmish sets around and some big battle sets also have a skirmish variant (FWC).

Tomorrow's war in new and popular.

My advice, buy a few toys and start with simple FUBAR. If you like playing with the toys then look at other rulesets that add flavour and detail. Once you've found a set you all enjoy expand the figure pool and terrain to make the games even more fun.

40k will likely get you a game anywhere as based upon high street presence it is the most dominat and has a large player base.

Coming from someone who just recommends 40k, I found this a tad ironic. Secondhand or not, I doubt you'd get your 6th ed rulebook or current codex for under $70 USD USD ; let alone minis.

Seconded.

Really? Have you even heard of Ebay? Secondhand 40k is around in droves. For that same $70.00 USD I pick up two medium armies.

Infinity a squad box averages $49.00 USD. For six miniatures. And it's not like there are a bunch of people with extras to sell you for cheap deals. I'm left with $21.00 USD. Which, at their prices, barely covers two, if not one more miniature. One. So for my $70.00 USD I now have 7 miniatures. Whoopee. And that is assuming some form of free shipping, which almost doesn't exist with Infinity anything.

Compared to Infinity, where it is not at a widespread level enough to have a second-hand market, I'd say 40k is more affordable. And I don't need to travel to the next state for players.

I'm not knocking Infinity or Corvus Belli. They make astounding sculpts, I have some, I have the rules (cost me $35.00 USD bucks right there for what I think is a very poorly laid out book).

The comments aren't ironic. Simply the truth.

Truth? you aperently use a different Ebay than I do. I just spent a bit of time looking to be sure, but no, unless you are getting a necromunda army, you are not getting one of $70 USDThere where a few OOP figures of $3 USD-$5 eacch, after postage, but not many. And most of those that where not OOP where some hackjob assembly that nobody wants.

I did find some good deals on really old rogue trader figures, but I dont believe they are in any current codex. All the already cmplete armys I saw wheren in the hundreds of dollars.

The only time I have ever found something in 40K cheap was when it was either no longer allowed in the current codex, or it was still there but majorly nerfed. Or codex power ccreep has passed it by. I have a huge mob of dwarves (OK warmhammer not 40K) in that catagory.Simply outclassed. Yes you can get those cheap. But current things you could maybe win with? didfnt find any of those, not for a discount anyway.

owen

No love for Gruntz? Shame, as it really is a good little game from someone with talent too.

Getting hung up on commercial product seems to me to miss the point, but YMMV.

Go with FUBAR. The beauty is how comprehensive it actually is in it's simplicity. Currently going through an update, but that won't stop you from playing. One caveat though, the game is scenario driven and it will take a couple of games to get balanced forces. But then again, who ever said war was balanced?

40k is number one, of course. Second tier would be Dust Warfare and Infinity. Everything else is just a blip.

Dust Warfare is pretty cheap to get into. MiniatureMarket.com sells everything for like 35% off. I don't play it but it looks neato.

FUBAR

FAD (Fast and Dirty)

Gruntz

Tomorrow's War

Stargrunt

Iron Cow and Dirtside, if you want lots of armored vehicles on the tabletop.

The newly release Strike Zone Commander seems to be generating a nice following too, since dropships are included in the rules, and it sounds like it has a nice rock-paper-scissors style of playbalance for the various forces. I think the minis for it are 10mm scale, so it might be easier to field more vehicles on the tabletop.

The Truth is relative.

Let's be honest here, just because something is popular, doesn't mean it's for everyone. Just take one look at other media that's popular right now, I bet you can find plenty of things that you're just not into for various reasons.

I know I do. I can still admire the good qualities of those things, like I do with 40K, but just as you mention some simple facts to support it, I can see many simple reasons why 40K isn't the way to go.

I would actually recommend warpath miniatures and learning both Warpath and 40k. If there's a pre-existing 40k group near you, you can try it.

What I can say is that 40k play has dropped off significantly in my area, and is still dropping.

Dropzone Commander is another game to look into. However, it's still too early to tell whether the game will last and find a larger audience, or will fizzle like Dystopian Wars did after its initial big release.

I'd recommend against Infinity, not because I don't think it's a good game, but it has many game mechanics that are difficult to get into once the newness of them wears off. As mentioned already, I really don't like the need for way too much terrain, and how the game breaks down if there is ever anything more than a 6"x6" empty spot on the table, or a high perch. There's so much terrain required that the game tables start looking absurdly crowded, which is odd since I prefer tables with lots of terrain normally.

Dust warfare has some issues with its translation from a boardgame to miniatures game, but the rules are sound, with some interesting weird war models too.

I'd have to disagree with Turtle about Dust Warfare, I found its rules to be anything but sound, from UGLs that make entire squads ignore cover (which is static, 2 hits removed from any attack from hard cover – you NEED 3 or more guys with ARs to have any chance – or just one grenade) to teams reacting to an enemy about to fire on them by running away outside the very short weapon ranges. The two lists in the core book were quite unbalanced, as well.

It's a bloody shame, I was really looking forward to it.

As for Infinity, I can't wrap my head around how it's a good idea to let a mech act 6 times in a turn only because he has 5 raw recruits with a knife at his back, and somehow killing those recruits reduces the mech's ability to act. If not for that I'd play it in an instant. Maybe someone can explain to me how that makes sense.

40k is pretty fun this time around. It gets a lot of bad rap as a game simply because it's top dog. Contrary to public opinion, the lists are surprisingly balanced for such a megalomaniacally large game. Not that playing with costed army lists is necessarily the only way to play, as we all know it's usually the scenarios where points are thrown to the wind that are the most fun.

Zele, I hear you about the Action Pool in Infinity. Often times I wrestled with the same thought, but it basically boils down to this:

If your models can see the bad guys, you can get unlimited ARO's. If you cannot see the bad guys, you are giving them free and unfettered movement, which is a poor choice tactically.

I have used the "cheerleader" tactic many times, and many times, a properly set defense with plentiful ARO's spoiled my day.

At the end of the day, the rules are pretty balanced as long as you treat it like a tactical simulation.

I am a fan of Gruntz and Tomorrow's War.

Anybody have a link to Quadrant 13?

I know AROs can counter the cheerleader tactic, my point was rather that the mechanic maybe shouldn't be there in the first place. How about something like investing into a commander or an abstract command pool irrespective of the amount of guys you have, and increment the cost of successive activations for the same unit?

Infinity a squad box averages $49.00 USD USD. For six miniatures. And it's not like there are a bunch of people with extras to sell you for cheap deals. I'm left with $21.00 USD USD. Which, at their prices, barely covers two, if not one more miniature. One. So for my $70.00 USD USD I now have 7 miniatures.

You do realize that seven miniatures is enough to play a medium-sized engagement (equivalent to a ~1500 point game of 40k in terms of complexity), right?

Neal @ the War Store can get you a starter box ($40), a blister of two or three troopers ($17), and any one single-infantryman blister ($10) for $70 USD, shipping included.

And to be perfectly blunt, I try to run as close to 10 models as possible no matter the points level of the game. I can have an entire force, including a big stompy robot, for $100 USD, at MSRP. Support your local game store and have them order it for you, don't pay shipping.

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@Zelekendel: Here's my description of why the number of models you have on the table determines how many times any one of them can act.

Those 9 other guys on the table are watching your back, so that you can be more aggressive and not worry about surprised as easily. The fewer guys you have, the fewer eyes you have watching your blind spots, and the slower everyone moves.

Also, you generally don't *want* to run your big badass TAG too far out in front of the rest of your forces. Someone will have a large-caliber can-opener, and everything in Infinity will die to enough rifle hits. When every action you take can draw fire, you need to be really careful even with the big stuff that you don't leave it hanging in the breeze unsupported.

Zelekendel 10 Sep 2012 6:36 p.m. PST:

I know AROs can counter the cheerleader tactic

Not very well in my experience, unless you set up a very boring "porcupine defence" and wait for the other guy to "impale" his troops on it. Also, there is the option for concerted action by several minis (I forget what it's called) that eats away from the effectiveness of AROing.

How about something like investing into a commander or an abstract command pool irrespective of the amount of guys you have, and increment the cost of successive activations for the same unit?

We've been toying with the idea of making subsequent actions performed by one miniature not automatic as that might alleviate "going Rambo on the opponent's ass". But so far we haven't bothered to do a test game. Usually I'm quite unenthusiastic about modifying rules these days.

Heh, funny, I was just reading an old Chapter Approved article in WD by Jervis J. which noted that these days, folks seem to be really hesitant about changing any of the rules or armies, treating the published word of the developer akin to the stone tablets of Moses! He contrasted this with the craziness of yesteryear, and I have to say that on some level I agree with him.

Gamers do tend to "own" their games and enjoyment less, and instead of letting their preferences for rules and imaginations for armies rule, the printed word rules.

Oh well.

It's much easier to just play by the book than to tweak, especially if you want to maintain any theoretical game balance that the desigers may have implemented. Calvinball approach where tweaks are done on the run is particuarly problematic.
bartel.org/calvinball

Game balance is there to increase the amount of fun had, it's not the end goal. Having fun is. And the designers can't know what you personally think would be the most fun you could have with the game.

And of course it's easier, that's the whole idea of 21st century entertainment. Easy movies, easy games, easy everything.

I don't mean throwing everything to the wind and going Calvinball, I mean implementing changes you want and like but otherwise wouldn't as it wouldn't be by the book.

I'm just saying both kinds of gaming have their place.

Zelekendel 12 Sep 2012 3:59 a.m. PST

Game balance is there to increase the amount of fun had, it's not the end goal. Having fun is

I find it's more fun to, like, play the game and not get into arguments about what should be tweaked and what should not be tweaked to make the game better. I guess that makes me a burger gamer then but there it is.

That is a valid point. It all depends on the mindset of your fellow gamers. If they are by-the-book, then it doesn't increase fun to go against the grain.

But among players with similar mindsets, it's not usually a problem, but you're right, if it comes down to arguments then it's counterproductive. Of course, discussion about rules tweaks outside the games themselves is very much ok by my book as it doesn't take away from the game. It's very much YMMV.

Another question I had about the "Ramboing" would be that doesn't it lead to a tendency for activated models to keep on blasting until a given target is dead. After all, if the shot was valid to take for the first action ie. judged to be in your favour vs. the potential reactions the opponent can take, repeating that action until you meet success seems like the expected thing to do.

But if the movement into position was the main thing, not the shot, then I could see how you might not want to risk extra reactions just for a shot.

Anyway, since I mentioned house rules, although it'd be impertinent of me to suggest anything definitive, having not played the game, based on other games with similar systems having the command pool fixed (ie. representing the command structure of the group) and not being reduced by casualties, but making each action more expensive for the would-be ramboer (2 actions for the second action, 3 for the 3rd….) could set the issue to rest for good.

I'd say FUBAR but I am biased ;)

The advantage FUBAR has over many others is that you can use any miniatures in your collection, so it is essentially completely free.

We, the Forge of War Development Group, are currently working on Ultra-FUBAR. This will break the one-page rule and allow us to give clearer examples of play and feature a few of the more popular variants in one booklet.

We will not be complicating it though. The core mechanics work just fine, but with hundreds of paly reports in they could do with some fine tuning to make it even more enjoyable.

There will still be a one-page version for use at the table.

Cheers,
Craig.

Suddenly it seems there aren't many popular sci-fi wargames out there… I'd say Warhammer 40K (W40k) or Infinity, the former being the #1. Infinity models seem very expensive to me, but to build a w40k army it will cost you a lot. Prices have gone up a lot in the recent years, some resin character models' costs are almost prohibitive and the company, Games Workshop, has some weird business practices…

That's a very good reason to develop skirmish variants of 40k, because all too often competitors cite the "cost" of 40k while selling metal miniatures at triple the price per model compared to GW, and advertising theirs as "cheaper due to needing less figures".

Don't the miniatures have a value by themselves? Isn't the game enriched by having so many painted (hopefully) miniatures on the table?

This is why I follow projects like Forge of War and the other not 40k variants. Really, the models can and should be usable in any number of great sci-fi systems, the market just drives people to the 1 set of miniatures = 1 system mentality, which is alien to the historical wargaming crowd.

Think of WH40K as a rental. At X point in the future, your stuff WILL be outdated, outlawed, nerfed, and/or overpowered by something new. That's when you either decide to resubscribe for a few more years or quit. When I got into WH40K with my son, I knew it was going to be a fad and I knew how GW did their business (and treat their customer base). I was prepared to quit from day one. :-)

That's not to say that I didn't enjoy playing, painting, building terrain, papercrafting, etc. You just have to decide on what kind of experience you want to get out it and adjust your expectations appropriately.

As to what's hot in sci-fi battle games. What is old is new again, check out Deluxe Ogre from Steve Jackson Games. It's about the same cost as a mini's starter set and you get the whole ball of wax.
--
TAZ

Here in ATL it's entirely 40k with a smattering of Infinity. 40k is the only game I see played. Have NEVER seen games of Tomorrow's War or Star Army played at our FLGS.

These statements sum up the reason you are getting basically 2 different kinds answers from different camps of thought on the Sci-fi gaming, but really all eras of miniatures gaming.

Have NEVER seen games of Tomorrow's War or Star Army played at our FLGS.

40K is the only game you'll have an easy time with finding opponents.

One camp plays at the FLGS and plays what they see going on there which is mostly 2 player tournament oriented points based systems. Players line up their "equal points" army on the sides and crash in the middle. These players buy an army and play another player with an army. So this requires you to "find opponents". The FLGS supports these tournament based games as they are the money makers.

The other camp plays at private clubs (mostly homes) and play mostly generic rules and don't require a specific brand of miniatures. Normally the games are scenario driven and the sides may be not be "equal". These players typically provide the whole game, meaning both armies. This generally does not require you to "find opponents" as the club players play whatever is going on. These games tend to more than 2 players.

So it is easy to for the person going to the FLGS to think no one plays the generic rules, but if you go to a miniatures convention (not an RPG con with 3 miniatures games as a side show) you will see mostly games of the generic rules put on by gaming clubs.

Amen Azzac. There lies the rub: The FLGS culture, dominated by GW and Privateer Press have a pseudo-monopoly on gaming if one is bound to playing at shops and tournaments. This promotes an 'arms race' mentality that sells miniatures. IMHO, it is better to find a few like-minded individuals and play games decided upon by those individuals with miniatures and rules decided upon by those individuals. There is so much great SF gaming to be had (and at a much more reasonable price, I might add) once one steps out of the 'I must play what the mob is playing' mentality. Old news on TMP, but still new to a lot of folks who are new to the hobby (easy prey for GW and the like).
This hobby should be about friends playing friendly games and painting/modeling using their imaginations, not 'keeping up with the Jones' so I can get a game'…
Anyway, that goes out to the OP. Have fun!

I started a thread about Bill and Azzarc's point a while back. I too am a fan of scenario gaming and prefer it to tourney style point based games.

Unfortunately scenario based gaming seems to be dying, even in basements!

As was discussed in that thread, it seems gaming has divided into two camps as Bill and Azzarc describe but with one important caveat.

The points based community is growing like gangbusters while scenario gaming is increasingly limited to we gray hair grognards who are too often unwilling to try anything but their favorite (and often home grown or obscure) rules.

Re: the immediate topic not only do I not see other SF games played at the FLGS I also don't see them played in local basements. My boys attend a monthly 40k game in a friend's basement but there ain't much beyond that.

These developments have been depressing and almost driven me from the hobby. When I started gaming circa 1988 I fell in with a group that played historicals. We played a variety of rules and each of us took turns running a game every week or two. Even as recently as the late 90s through about 2001 I was in a very active group that played different game every Friday with GMs rotating duties.

Today that's nearly impossible to sustain. It seems that with age guys are unwilling to play different rules or periods. Groups become insular. There's one fellow I know who runs beautiful games but we couldn't get him to leave his basement to run them anywhere else we might recruit more players. We're no longer just grognards, we're becoming curmudgeons! :-)

I've tried bucking the trend and even ran sessions of TW and Star Army. But they weren't 40k, so folks ain't interested.

It was not my intention to change the topic on this post, but to point out why there appears to be two different types of answers. Also I was not really trying to say one was better than the other but to point out why one appears to be hidden from the other.

The points based community is growing like gangbusters while scenario gaming is increasingly limited to we gray hair grognards who are too often unwilling to try anything but their favorite (and often home grown or obscure) rules.

Well I do not really agree with you on those points. But maybe I live in a good gaming area. Curmudgeons will attract Curmudgeons.