Olaf 03 | 05 Aug 2012 1:06 p.m. PST |
I was thinking about trying out Army Painter's quick shade product and/or Minwax varnish to shade some figures. I have never done this before and I was not sure if you would get the same results with these products or if one is better than the other. Also I wanted to know if anyone applies a sealant to the figure before they use the dip method such as Future floor polish? When ever I do washes I usually get a muddy effect from the wash and I have heard that applying a coat of Future can help prevent this, didn't know if this helps with the dip method too. Also if I were to go with the Minwax (or generic varnish) does anyone have color suggestions. I am especially interested in one that would work well on primarily white figures such as Seven Years War Austrians. |
6sided | 05 Aug 2012 1:23 p.m. PST |
Look at the army painter site, good tutorials there. Just block on the colours and go lighter than you usually would then brush on a decent coat of strong tone. No prepping needed, just paint and apply the dip then matt varnish. Jaz 6sided.net |
Samulus | 05 Aug 2012 1:38 p.m. PST |
Use a brush, don't dip it. Make sure you get any excess off with the brush, especially on 'highlight' areas. If you're expecting magic results, you'll be disappointed. If you want 'pretty good' fast and with little effort, dip's the way. |
rampantlion | 05 Aug 2012 2:07 p.m. PST |
Olaf, I am new to this method as well and I painted about 150 figures with minwax and was happy with the result. The negatives are that it has quite an odor, dries slowly and it needs a dull coat afterwards. The positive is that it goes on easlily and gives a tough finish to the figure. I recently tried my first batch with Citadel Agrax Earthshade (which I am told is the same as Devlin Mud). I like it better. It goes on just as easily (I brush, no actual dipping), leaves a dull coat which still needs a finish coat, but it dries easily and has no odor. I think that it will be my choice from now on. I am not a great painter though and I am sure that more talented guys and gals can give a more proffessional opinion. Allen |
uruk hai | 05 Aug 2012 2:12 p.m. PST |
I dipped some Haradrim and was very impressed with the result, even the facial details were emphasised. |
Steve W | 05 Aug 2012 2:28 p.m. PST |
Have a look at this guys site, its all been done using AP as far as I am aware link |
ordinarybass | 05 Aug 2012 2:42 p.m. PST |
I brush-dip nearly all my figures with Minwax Satin Polyshades and I think the results are pretty good. There's no need to seal before dip, though you will need a Matte varnish afterwards to cut the shine. Here's my tutorial link Folks have been using Minwax for dipping far longer than Army Painter has been in existance, and it is 1/5 the price. However the AP website is gold for refference. Do a search for the type or color of minis you are painting and you will probably be able to find examples in all 3 dip shades. The AP to Minwax equivalents are: Soft Tone: Pecan Strong Tone: Antique Walnut Dark Tone: Tudor |
ColCampbell | 05 Aug 2012 2:54 p.m. PST |
But I have found that sealing my figures with Future after using craft paints to paint them is essential before using Minwax as a brush-on "dip." I think that is because the craft paints have more "tooth" than "model" paints that many of you use. But the Minwax (very glossy) on top of the Future (also very glossy) definitely needs at least one, if not two, coats of a flat or matte varnish. Jim |
combatpainter | 05 Aug 2012 3:48 p.m. PST |
There is a misconcepton about washing(DIP) and it is that it is quick and effortless. You need to tend to the figures and abide by the process otherwise you will have a sloppy mess. Go to youtube and check out a couple of tutorials. |
combatpainter | 05 Aug 2012 3:52 p.m. PST |
Caution: The Phil Hendry site above is not the norm. He is a master at that method. |
Olaf 03 | 05 Aug 2012 4:16 p.m. PST |
Thanks for all of the tips so far. I tend to use craft paints so I think I will try ColCampbell's suggestion of using Future first. ordinarybass, thanks for the AP to minwax color equivalents. I have already looked at few tutorials on youtube but some of these are new to me so I will check them out as well. Any other tips are welcome and if anyone has a method that works better than the "dip" I would be happy to hear it. |
McWong73 | 05 Aug 2012 4:37 p.m. PST |
Craft paints, then a coat of future, then dip away. Combat Painter is right in that its not as simple as its made out to be if you want a very good result, but you can get a good result fairly promptly. You need the coat of future to make the surface of the figure relatively "smooth", which means that the dip won't pool around rougher paint particles. |
IGWARG1 | 05 Aug 2012 5:53 p.m. PST |
Tip for applying "Future" floor finish fast, very fast. Attach any household cleaner spray thingy to a "Future" bottle – Windex, Fantastic, etc. Use "spray" option, if available. Spray many figures at once, works every time and doesn't clog the spray thingy or pool on the figure. |
DyeHard | 05 Aug 2012 6:16 p.m. PST |
So, I have not updated this for a very long time, but all the info is still good, if not all the links: link I now seal figures before applying the stain coat. Unless you want a very dark, highly textured result. Matt (Flat) paint has a lot of gain. This grain grabs the stain and holds it even on high-light parts. Future Floor Finish is my preferred sealant. You can spend the extra money to get the Army Painter products, but I do not think it provides any better results. As stated by many, bush the stain on, and actually dipping and spinning or flipping the extra stain off is much too much work for no better results, it wastes lots of stain and mess is beyond belief. In the USA, Ace Hardware is the best common source for the "Tutor" stain which is a nice general purpose shade tone. |
Dan 055 | 05 Aug 2012 6:55 p.m. PST |
I use craft paints, apply minwax directly on them and have no problems with the result. |
Saber6 | 05 Aug 2012 7:08 p.m. PST |
I swear by the Dip method. I discovered that my Minifigs had actual fingers sculpted (could not see the detail before) |
ordinarybass | 05 Aug 2012 8:24 p.m. PST |
I'm still not sure what all the fuss about an intermediate sealant. Like Dan 055, I use craft paints almost exclusively and dip on top of them with nothing in between. The figures in the tutorial I linked to above are all painted with craft paints with the dip right on top of that. |
Cardinal Hawkwood | 05 Aug 2012 9:04 p.m. PST |
I wouldn't touch the stuff.. |
Mick A | 06 Aug 2012 3:21 a.m. PST |
All my VBCW figures are done with Army Painter (around 200 of them). I use the brush method then use the Army Painter anti-shine spray after. Mick |
John Leahy | 06 Aug 2012 10:08 a.m. PST |
I wouldn't either Cardinal! It's very messy to the touch. I prefer using Future with ink. It's a much cheaper and flexible product and far more forgiving when applied. It doesn't eat brushes. Doesn't smell as bad. Doesn't ever dry out. Dries faster. The average gamer will find one bottle will last their lifetime. Frankly, I'm stunned that Minwax or AP compete with it. Oh, for the record I used Minwax for years.You couldn't pay me to go back. Thanks, John |
Olaf 03 | 06 Aug 2012 11:12 a.m. PST |
John, Do you dilute the Future with water or just add the ink directly to the future? |
John Leahy | 06 Aug 2012 11:43 a.m. PST |
Initially, I tried cutting it with water. I disliked the results. Now I don't add anything but ink. I know some other folks have used distilled water and liked the results. Thanks, John |
Olaf 03 | 06 Aug 2012 1:12 p.m. PST |
Cardinal Any recommendations on alternatives to the "dip". I will definitely give John's suggestion of Future + ink but I would be interested in any suggestions you have too. I am not a professional painter (nor do I want to be) I would just like to find a relatively easy and effective wash that I can apply to my figures. Thanks |
Mithridates | 06 Aug 2012 3:43 p.m. PST |
Army Painter now has an acrylic set of dips – soft/strong/dark tones which I have been experimenting with. The dark is best for armour. Often I mix in some flesh wash as well to add some tone to flesh and leather. Tried the Future but found the results were inconsistent – problem my bad mixing. |
Mick A | 07 Aug 2012 1:51 a.m. PST |
Had my Army Painter dip for over two years now, still half a can left and no sign of drying out, I do agree about the smell though
The acrylic version sounds good :) Mick |
vtsaogames | 07 Aug 2012 12:08 p.m. PST |
Future, water and ink works for me. It dries faster than the dip and doesn't smell nearly as bad. I was unhappy with my finished product before. Using dip/wash method gives me better looking figures in less time. If you already paint masterwork figures, pass it up. But if you spend a lot of time making less than wonderful figures, give it a try. |
1905Adventure | 10 Aug 2012 7:10 p.m. PST |
I'm another convert from minwax to future, but I never found the Minwax to be particularly messy or difficult. One advantage the future has is the ability to make any colour as long as you have the waterproof ink to mix to make it. I have a blue, a blood red, and a variety of browns and sepias. On the otherhand, the minwax already comes premixed and you don't have to worry about ratios and recipes. That said, I'd recommen about 3-5% ink to 95-97% future. A typical artist's waterproof ink bottle has a dropper that drops 20 drops per ml. So if you're mixing up a 30ml (1 oz) bottle, you'll want about 15 drops of ink if you're going with black and up to 30 if you're going with other colours. For example, my favorite recipe is 10 drops black, 20 drops sepia per 30ml. Also remember-- this method (minwax or future) works best on bright paint jobs, so you may want to use white primer and even paint your colours slightly brighter than you normally would. I also highly recommend waiting atleast a day before matte sealing after either method. Or applying flock. The very first time I tried the minwax, I waited an hour and dipped the figure into a back of flock and turned my miniature into Mossman. |
Bowman | 12 Aug 2012 6:17 a.m. PST |
I also use Future, and have no interest in using Minwax for the reasons given above. The one characteristic Minwax has over Future is it's viscosity. It is much thicker and thereby sits in the creases and folds of the figure better. One way around this is to do a pre-wash with unstained Future to get some "bite". Then add the staining Future, which should now pool better in the crevasses. That's some added work. Still need to hit the figure with dull coat, |
John Leahy | 12 Aug 2012 11:43 a.m. PST |
Yeah, plastic modelers have been using Future as a base coat to make paint flow into all the recesses for decades before we gamers started using it. Thanks, John |
Olaf 03 | 13 Aug 2012 10:38 a.m. PST |
Thanks for all of the tips. I think I will attempt the Future method first. I will let everyone know how it turns out. By the way I had bought a bottle of Future a month or so ago and when I was at the store yesterday I noticed the packaging was different. There were actually two bottles Pledge with Future Shine for Tile and Pledge with Future Shine for Wood. I assume the first one is the one I want? |
John Leahy | 13 Aug 2012 1:20 p.m. PST |
That's the one I use (1st one). Thanks, John |
Goose666 | 14 Aug 2012 2:58 a.m. PST |
So, as I under stand it.. to get a better result and stop the "cling" (surface tension") effect of dried paint, to ensure that the pigment does not pool on flat surfaces but is pulled into the recesses and edges, you first give the model a coat of the Futuer/Pledge, without ink/stain/etc. Then once dry, then apply the "wash".. Have it got that right? Or do you need to use a proper varnish, then apply "your wash/dip" over the varnish! I have to admit. I have used newton and winsor ink in the past, mixed with de-ionised water and a tiny drop of washing detergent, and a drop of black acrylic paint. It works very well, but is water and you do if not careful get the poolin on flat surface. In the UK we don't get "Klear" as such, we get "Pledge – Klear floor wax". Without ammonia. It is a milky liquid. The old "klear" that was "klear" i think is banned now due to the ammonia. I have heard mixed views on how the stuff we get here in the UK works. Some people say it goes streaky. I am wondering if this is the issue with surface tension, or type of inks. I am tempted to try the Dailer Rowny FW inks. Have avoided them in the past, due to the costs. Newton and winsor are cheaper. This is the stuff we get in the UK; auction |
John Leahy | 14 Aug 2012 2:08 p.m. PST |
Hi, I use future and don't feel the need to use a prep coat of the same before I apply it. I use Higgin's Calligraphy ink. Thanks, John |
Marc the plastics fan | 16 Aug 2012 5:49 a.m. PST |
Goose – let me know if you want a bottle of the clear version. Where are you? If you can make London no postage. |
Goose666 | 17 Aug 2012 2:18 a.m. PST |
Hi Mark, I am in north wales. So a bit of trek from London sadly. As you don't have pm function, drop me an email via our clubs website. deesidedefenders.co.uk I am the admin. Would be interested to see how the original compares to the the new variant. @John Leahy, thats interesting to know, thanks John. I guess any waterproof setting and permenant ink with high light tollerance will do. I bought the DR inks as they are cheaper per ml than the newton and winsor and I think they are more "potent" from the look. But I could be wrong. I have a large batch of modern 28mm Victory force miniature zombies on the painting table. So they shall be my test subjects for varying shades etc. |
1905Adventure | 17 Aug 2012 7:51 a.m. PST |
I don't find much different from one brand to another for ink. I've a mixture of higgins, W&N and the FW series from DR. Perhaps because my recipe is heavier than most, it ends up at some sort of point of saturation where the final effect is similar regarless of what brand I use. My preference though, is the DR FW inks as they just feel good when you grab the bottle, and the see-through glass means you can see when they're not shaken well enough. The Higgin's dropper is nice, but the FW inks just feel like quality to me. |
flipper | 19 Aug 2012 2:04 p.m. PST |
Sirs, Expedition To Alexandrapour's Chapter XXI tells the shocking story of the sacrifice of Countess Alexandra. See her captors, acrificial posts and the descent into the cave. --- I have the honor to report you will participate in the closing chapters of our adventure via the usual brief narrative and briefly captioned images. Return with me now to dangerous and mysterious Terra Incognita if you dare – here: link ---------- Respectfully, Bill |
1905Adventure | 19 Aug 2012 5:51 p.m. PST |
Have your figures been painted with a wash? I see some classic black lining, but none of the tell tale signs of a tintd wash like dip/future. Or is this an instance of the TMP post swapping bug? |
Goose666 | 20 Aug 2012 5:12 a.m. PST |
I think the latter nathaniel.. bugged. |
Marc the plastics fan | 20 Aug 2012 10:16 a.m. PST |
No problems – email sent to your club :-) |
Goose666 | 21 Aug 2012 5:55 a.m. PST |
Thanks, Marc. reply sent. |
Sevastopol | 09 Feb 2015 8:25 p.m. PST |
I've read that the Future (Pledge) yellows over time. Or is that only if it doesn't have a final coat of varnish? |
Sgt Slag | 10 Feb 2015 2:44 p.m. PST |
I've got figures sealed with Future/Pledge Floor Shine, which are 5+ years old: no yellowing yet. I use a mix of The Dip (Minwax Polyshades urethane stain) and Magic Wash (Future/Pledge Floor Shine + acrylic paint for tinting). None of my figures have yellowed yet, and my Dip'ed figures go back 20 years. Cheers! |
Sevastopol | 10 Feb 2015 7:01 p.m. PST |
Sgt Slag: sounds good! I'm considering trying this method rather than Minwax. Do you give the figs a final coat of Varnish? |
Bowman | 10 Feb 2015 8:58 p.m. PST |
My figures aren't as old as Sgt. Slags but I haven't had any yellowing either. Do you give the figs a final coat of Varnish? I highlight them after the "magic wash" is applied. Then I hit them with Dullcoat or Krylon Matte. That's enough protective varnish I would think. |
Sgt Slag | 11 Feb 2015 1:15 p.m. PST |
Bowman is spot on. I do not highlight mine, though, after The Dip, or Magic Wash. I just hit them with a matte clear coat, to dull the shine. As posted already, Magic Wash dries within 15 minutes; The Dip, for me, takes several days to dry at room temperatures. Normally, I will put my Dip'ed figures in a dedicated, slow cooker/crock pot ($20 at Wal-Mart), on Low (~170 F), for 30 minutes, to fully cure them, the same day. Then I can matte clear coat them, and game with them that day, or the next. Cheers! |
Sevastopol | 11 Feb 2015 8:17 p.m. PST |
Excellent! Thanks for the info! |
Fizzypickles | 17 Feb 2015 7:50 a.m. PST |
I used to paint for a company many years ago and we finished a lot of our figures off with a dip for the American Market. I don't think Army Painter existed back then and we made our dip by simply adding a very small amount of Vandyke Brown Artist oil paint to a bottle of Humbrol varnish from their enamel range. this was then brushed on and left to dry for 48 hrs. You could use any colour you like of course, burnt Umber, paynes gray etc. |
Henry Martini | 08 Mar 2015 9:50 p.m. PST |
I was looking recently at online images of some very nicely done NW Frontier figures (Old Glory Pathans and Foundry/Empress Indian Army) painted for the forthcoming Osprey colonial rules from Dan Mersey. Except for one layer painted British unit they were painted mostly using Army Painter Quickshade, and I at least couldn't see a difference in the finished effect from the two techniques. My conclusion is that the AP dip is effectively doing naturally and much more efficiently what tired old eyes struggle and strain to do: distinguish between varying degrees of relief – albeit in reverse. Where, using the layer method, the eyes seek out the raised areas, the dip automatically finds the recesses and hollows. If the subject is right, i.e. a brownish tint is acceptable or advantageous, it's hard to see why anyone of average historical wargamer age would bother with the torture of layer painting at this point in the hobby's development. |
mikecornish | 13 Jul 2023 8:47 a.m. PST |
Hi I am reviving this old string because I still use floor wax and ink to shade my figures. I use to use Pledge multi surface wax by Johnson but I cant find any in the shops anymore. Has anyone in the Uk found a replacement for this? |