"The Greying of the Hobby (again)" Topic
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Spreewaldgurken | 23 Jul 2012 7:06 a.m. PST |
I've noticed that this topic has reappeared in the discussions about the recent Historicon. As usual, people offer anecdotes about how many kids they saw at the Con, as evidence that the hobby isn't greying. I don't really care whether the hobby is greying or not. I don't lose sleep over it. But I'd like to offer a couple of points about how you can't judge the age of the hobby from the faces of kids brought to a once-a-year wargaming convention. And let me also be clear that we're talking about historical wargaming. Nobody disputes that "the kids" love their Fantasy and Sci-Fi stuff
at least until they discover girls and get a driver's license. Okay, that said: 1. A Con like Historicon is a special event that involves a road trip and a weekend. Are the kids playing historical wargames for the other 51 weekends of the year, in the basement? Or are they just being brought along by Dad, for this special trip? 2. Dad wasn't taken by his dad to Historicon, in order to spur his interest. Somehow Dad, in his young day, discovered historical wargaming and got into it, on his own. That's the level of fascination and enthusiasm that keeps people in the hobby for a lifetime. 3. Dad, back in his young day, saved his allowance, mowed neighbors' lawns, and squandered his own money on miniatures and games. He pestered his parents to get him the new Avalon Hill board game or a new set of paints and brushes. The desire and initiative was his. Are kids today really eager – on their own initiative – to spend their money on historical wargames? Or are they just willing to play whatever Dad's willing to buy at the Con? 4. Dad, back in his young day, got together with his friends and organized historical wargames. His parents didn't have to take him anywhere, or ask him to participate, or try to spur his interest. (Hell, my parents didn't really know anything about history, or play games at all, except for the occasional Spades or Gin Rummy. They didn't have an inkling of understanding about what we were doing.) Do you see kids today organizing their own historical wargames? On their own time? On their own dime? I certainly see them devoting that level of time and independent interest to Fantasy and Sci-Fi, but to Historicals
.? No. Not even Flames of War. (If Con attendance is demonstrative of the youthfulness of the hobby, then walk around the FoW tournament, and tell me what the average age of the participants is.) Again: I'm not talking about anecdotal observations of lots of kids being brought by their parents to a convention. I'm asking: Do you really think that kids today have a true, self-starting and independent interest in historical wargaming, the way that you did, when you were their age? And by the way: Fantasy and Sci-Fi were popular in my young day, too. And we played them, too. So it's not just a case of kids today having all-new and different options. It's a question of preferences changing. |
TodCreasey | 23 Jul 2012 7:15 a.m. PST |
I didn't play historicals until I was about 24 after 10 years of fantasy/sci fi. When I was ready we had a club in town and I was good to go. My experience is that the young 'uns who join us take largely the same progression. My kids (6 and 8) are gaming like crazy but have only a passing interest in historicals currently although the Magic Treehouse and other books are helping. Heck Bugs Buggy started us on a long discussion about the War of Independance and why Bugs was on the "wrong" side <grin>. I'm more concerned if we lose the 25-35 group or if kids stop gaming. No concern thus far. |
just visiting | 23 Jul 2012 7:44 a.m. PST |
A FEW kids today get into historical war gaming on their own. It has always been a few kids who get drawn into historicals. The bulk of gamers go for the razzle dazzle of the commercially viable genres; and that market is almost entirely galvanized by "pulp fiction" and movies, etc. Very few of those kids, as you note, continue to game miniatures after they meet girls and get cars; followed by jobs, setting up house and getting kids of their own. 'Puter games, even historical themed ones, fill the needs for gaming for most people. Miniatures, especially historical miniatures, are going into an eclipse. I predict that the "old days" of almost invisible miniature gamers will return; with very few manufacturers producing limited offerings of historical miniatures, just like before the boom days of the 70s
. |
Tom Reed | 23 Jul 2012 7:48 a.m. PST |
Just last week my gaming group had a "kid" come into the back room and ask if he could play, then ask to be put on our newsletter list so he would know when the next game was being run. First time that has happened in quite a while. |
Rudysnelson | 23 Jul 2012 7:50 a.m. PST |
What are the age of the kids? My kid is 30 and my nephews are in their 20s. They went to a tournament in Columbus OHIO last week (we are in Alabama) for some card event. They have the imagination, it is just a matter of guiding them to wargames rather than video games. Parents take the easy way out with video games rarther than the 'having to drive' hassle as they put it. No they do not of course I never stopped playing soliders from when I got my first pack at a 5 year old birthday party. The lady never lets me forget that she gave them to me! LOL! |
Ambush Alley Games | 23 Jul 2012 7:51 a.m. PST |
I share Tod's experience as far as miniature gaming in general goes. When I was a kid back in the '70s, there weren't any active miniature gamers in my hometown, the bustling metropolis of Enid, Oklahoma. I got my first glimpse at the hobby when I mail ordered D&D from an ad in Savage Sword of Conan magazine and got a few miniatures catalogs with my order. My brother and I didn't really get into miniature gaming until we were in our 20s (late 20s for me) when we formed the core of an extremely active Battletech and WH40K/Fantasy/Epic group – again, composed mostly of guys in their 20s. I think teens are open to the idea of miniature gaming if they see the games being played and get a chance to move some toys around the table and throw some dice. That's why conventions like Recruits in Lee's Summit, MO are so good for the hobby (of miniature gaming in general, no (c)s implied). Recruits is aimed at younger folks and actually succeeds in pulling quite a few in. I've got several guys on our forum that I met at Recruits when they were teens and they're now in their early 20s and heavily interested in both historical and SF/Fantasy gaming. -Shawn. |
Princeps | 23 Jul 2012 7:58 a.m. PST |
Well, I'm the father of three kids (11, 15, and 17). While they are happy to play a game from time to time (and boardgames too), they don't a have a real interest in painting/collecting despite my efforts. Not even GW 40K, which I thought would be a sure fire winner. Frankly, miniatures have a hard time competing with the instant gratification of the computer and XBox. I think there are very few, far fewer than in the 70's when I started at age 7, who are interested in getting into historical miniatures. I have accepted that the number of historical miniatures gamers will be be much smaller in 20-30 years time, but I doubt it will ever die out. There will always be people who need that tactile aspect of painting figures and pushing them around a table. |
Mako11 | 23 Jul 2012 8:04 a.m. PST |
Mine's into fantasy computer games. He's in his low 20's. He'll play miniatures with me (historical and Sci-Fi), when I drag them out, and used to like to paint his GW figs (yes, I know, the HORROR), but doesn't seem to have an interest in that anymore. |
Prince Rupert of the Rhine | 23 Jul 2012 8:15 a.m. PST |
I was nine when I discovered wargaming and although my dad wasn't and isn't a wargamer I couldn't have gotten into the hobby without him. I saw my first wargames at IBM Hursley, were my dad worked, open weekend circa 1983. He took me back the next day to see the games again. One of the gamers also worked for IBM and passed some 25mm vikings to my dad as a gift for me. My dad drove me to wargames shops and when I was little older drove me to a wargames club over in Maybush in Southampton every other weekend with a school fiend. He also took my to a local roleplaying club, to play D&D, every weekend to. He built my first wargames table for my bedroom, and several more since, for me. Helped me build scenery and taught me how to use some hobby tools. He also funded my early wargames purchases My mum painted my first wargames figures for me and built me a Saxon village board to play my first games on. The point of the above? I'm not sure but I think it shows that most of the OPs points are based on his own experinces of getting into the hobby and mine where totally different. My parents enabaled me to take on a hobby that had no intrest in themselves. |
galvinm | 23 Jul 2012 9:01 a.m. PST |
Rupert, you are a lucky man to have had parents so supportive. My folks would give me extra chores to do to earn extra money if I wanted something special. |
ming31 | 23 Jul 2012 9:05 a.m. PST |
My dad was not into games either , but always supported my hobby and made my friends welcome . My kitchen table was the main gaming area of our group . |
Feet up now | 23 Jul 2012 9:06 a.m. PST |
Perhaps it is because kids know it all and do not listen to advice (just like we were by the way ) and play the wild fantasy and mental unknown Sci-Fi. Then when they know it all and actually look for sound advice they will start playing Historicals (just like we did
Oh ) |
Keraunos | 23 Jul 2012 9:16 a.m. PST |
this is, as usual, such a lot of nonesense. I've been told the hobby is greying since I was a teenager. Its only greying if you are in a club which is bad at looking out for new members. the number of people making a living off the hobby is proof it is if fine health, so stop looking for empirical evidence to show its days are numbered. The real problem here is a certain type of gamer who actually wants to play with spotty teenagers – and since they can't find them, they assume that the end is nigh. In fact the demographic now is for men to get interested in the hobby once they get past the age of embarrasment. thats the only change, and its a change for the better. |
Mr Elmo | 23 Jul 2012 9:17 a.m. PST |
My father loved fishing. He took me finshing every weekend for 8-10 hours a day. Now, I would sooner have bamboo shoved up my nails than go fishing. Little Elmo has started gaming and I try find games lasting around two hours. I also play in the game in case he decides to quit, i can at least politely finish his commitment. Time will tell if this worked better than the fishing. |
Spreewaldgurken | 23 Jul 2012 9:17 a.m. PST |
"I think it shows that most of the OPs points are based on his own experinces of getting into the hobby" I only mentioned my own experience once, in reference to the fact that my parents weren't into history or games. The rest of the O.P. was questions about whether or not kids – out of their own initiative – were getting into historical miniatures gaming. Or whether we're just seeing them brought along by Dad to a convention and saying to ourselves: "See look! Lots of kids here! The hobby's not greying!" "the number of people making a living off the hobby is proof it is if fine health, so stop looking for empirical evidence to show its days are numbered." As I said in the O.P., I don't care whether it's greying or not. I was pointing out that anecdotal observations of kids taken by their fathers to Cons does not mean that the kids are entering the hobby. And as I said in the O.P., I don't see any evidence that "the kids" are buying historical wargame products. Are you trying to argue that the people making their living by selling historical wargaming products are experiencing a boom because they're selling so much to kids? If so, I'd love to see your data for that. Otherwise, if you don't have any data, then it's just as logical to assume that the sales are to the same old gamers who are simply older and more affluent now, and thus buying more stuff. But by all means, if you have the data, share it. "In fact the demographic now is for men to get interested in the hobby once they get past the age of embarrasment. thats the only change, and its a change for the better." I'd love to see those "demographics." Please share a link to the data. What study are you referring to? "I've been told the hobby is greying since I was a teenager."
and you're how old now
? Ponder that for a moment. You have been greying ever since you were a teenager. So have I. So has pretty much every gamer I know. The question is: for every ten of us who have been greying, how many youngsters have entered the historical gaming hobby in the meantime? If you've got data, let's see it. Otherwise, we're dealing with anecdotes. And – back to the O.P. – just seeing kids brought along by their fathers to a once-a-year convention is not the same thing as kids getting into the hobby on their own initiative. |
Marc the plastics fan | 23 Jul 2012 9:25 a.m. PST |
I am with princeps here My kids find easy gratification in CoD. They will play historicals, and love tanks etc, but prefer WH40k. But painting is slow, and the alternatives are a-plenty, so if the younger generation these days are to succumb like I did, then it will need a massive shift in values. And manufacturers are making money now selling to rich (compared to when we were young) middle aged blokes. My kids spend more on shoes :-( I doubt the hobby will be anything like this size in 30 years, but then neither will fishing or trains etc. But computer games will be huge :-) |
kustenjaeger | 23 Jul 2012 9:34 a.m. PST |
Greetings Of my children and their friends: (a) daughter (18) – isn't interested in tabletop games – she'll play rpgs and computer games mainly fantasy but OK with historical setting; (b) son (21) – intermittently plays tabletop games and has played WW2 ones but his focus is SF/fantasy and hasn't played recently (though he's got a load of figures inc GZG) – his current focus is on rpgs and computer games; (c) son's gaming friends – one plays rpgs/computer games as well as WHFRP/WH40k but no historicals, one has played historicals with us a few times but otherwise is an rpger/computer gamer, the other has his own British 15mm WW2 force and has played quite a few WW2 games with us. I had a few years when my son and his friends were younger taking them to Salute but they focused on the SF/Fantasy stuff when there. Regards Edward |
ancientsgamer | 23 Jul 2012 10:12 a.m. PST |
I remember being persistent at the age of 10. To be very frank with you, I didn't get much help, encouragement, etc. Everyone assumed I was 10 years old and shouldn't be taken seriously. They were probably right ;-) However, there are many more opportunities these days for younger players and very simple rules as well. It is encouraging that I see many trying to get younger players to try games. The click stuff and Heroquest are good entry points too. We have a local grognard that puts on Summer free gaming events for kids. We have another that has classes at TMI as well. It may be me but I didn't see these kind of efforts as a kid. I think competition with electronic games hurts the hobby. You don't see many that are interested in history as much too. As far as the 40K and fantasy stuff, yes, I am sure this helps the hobby. GW having a local store has got to be having an effect too. Having GW electronic games has got to be helping the hobby too. It is all good I suppose. I think having a gaming store with lots of active gaming, even during the week is needed no matter where you are. It will always be a hobby that doesn't attract a majority of people and this is okay. |
Rrobbyrobot | 23 Jul 2012 10:36 a.m. PST |
I used to think the hobby was not just greying. I was sure it was dyeing. I saw wargame shops go out of buisness, or stop carrying historical miniatures. And found it harder and harder to find opponents. Then I started looking on the net. Well, here I am. Still hard to find opponents. But I knew there were going to be some disadvantages to moving out of the big city. So, I guess the hobby is greying, but I can't see where this is a bad thing. This hobby has been around a long time. I don't see it going away any time soon. Some of the current bunch of sci-fi and fantasy gamers will get into historicals. |
OSchmidt | 23 Jul 2012 10:38 a.m. PST |
Maybe it's always been a "grey" hobby. In 1962 I was 14 and got Joe Moreschauser's book for Christmas. I was hooked. My sister gave it to me. Didn't know zip about war games before that. Three years later I took the train from Newark to the first Wargame Convention which was held at a run down hotel in Philadelphia. I had a few figures (cheap plastic, didn't bring them just went to see what it was like) but there were this bunch of old guys, Ed Miller, Jerry Hedges, Bob Wall, Carl Johnson, Pat Condray etc., who were putting this thing on. Great guys-- all old-- somewhere in their mid 30's -- well they looked old to me back then. Now that I'm 64 everyone younger than me looks 12. There were no young guys like me at 17 around. I learned that there were other gamers besides them and they met at "The Sketch Club" in Philadlephia as part of the MFCA (Model Figure Collecters of America) every month. Took the train down for about a year to attend the meetings for that. Had to stop because I got a job at night to buy figures. Found two or three other young guys like me interested in gaming. One I think was Mike Arnowitz. Anyway, the point is back then we were young and didn't have squat, but all the people who were "in" the hobby were old. It takes time to gain the expertise, paint the figures do the research etc. We didn't have much to the hobby back then,but the point was that it was the older guys who did most of it and I recall hearing about "The Greying of the Hobby" back then. One of them at a game said something to the other which was "We're not getting young guys into the hobby." I was standing right next to him , playing. So I've heard this for a long time. First off, I don't care. It's my hobby and I'll be doing it if I'm the only one in it. Second, it's fun. But somehow, every year, I hear the same thing about "the greying of the hobby." But where did we all come from? Were we old farts not young once? So unless you have a "spore theory" I suspect conventional wisdom in this isn't so wise. Girls, music, cars, clothes, sports, girls, etc, all were pretty strong competetors for our interest. It's a tiny niche hobby and will never be anything but-- but-- somehow-- we keep going. |
Spreewaldgurken | 23 Jul 2012 11:37 a.m. PST |
Maybe "greying" is the wrong word. Maybe it was always just a generational phenomenon in the first place: a Baby Boomer hobby. Historical gaming as we know it really begins in the late 1950s and early 1960s. That's when the early A-H boardgames begin to appear, when the Jack Scruby figures were available, when Grant, Young, Bath, and Featherstone were writing, etc. That means there's a generation who were kids/adolescents at some point between @1960 and @1980. If we did a poll of historical gamers and asked when their birth-years are, I'll bet we'd find a massive bubble falling between 1950 and 1970. That would make them adolescents in that sweet-spot before the widespread use of computers, and before Fantasy gaming got huge. The kids who grew up after the mid-1980s, did so in a very different world of entertainment options, and their hobbies probably imprinted very differently on them. ** When Flames of War first got huge, everybody was talking about how they were the "New Games Workshop," and how they were supposedly going to bring all sorts of new kids into historical miniatures. Around 2004, I think, they did a poll of their customers on their website – well over a thousand people answered the poll. And they found that the average age of their customers was in fact 36, I think? (It somewhere in the mid/late 30s.) I remember at the time, doing the math and realizing that that meant that the average FoW gamer had been born in 1967 – making him roughly my own age. That was eight years ago, so that "average FoW gamer" is now in his mid-40s. UNLESS: they have in the meantime managed to recruit a significant number of much-younger replacements? |
Yesthatphil | 23 Jul 2012 11:37 a.m. PST |
What Keraunos said. But I don't care about this either. Historical Wargaming is in excellent health – more than a little compromised by the commercialism that drives the agenda (but you get that pap with everything these days so it is survivable)
When I started wargaming the main proponents were a generation older than me – now it's my generation. No real greying there
(scene from our RCW game at the weekend) Of course adults who are into fantasy think children like that sort of thing – so feed them fantasy and find their prejudices confirmed. I like history, loved it as a kid and believe children are actually much more open to history that many adults would have you believe. So I share my love of history with youngsters (and I get my prejudices confirmed
)
(Graham's Kadesh game being played at Campaign) Then again, as fantasy gaming is an entirely different hobby to my interest in historical wargaming and military history, my perception of what 'the hobby' is (if it is anything coherent at all) and what it was before it allegedly started greying
will be entirely different to those people who believe fantasy and sci-fi are branches of the same hobby as historical wargaming (even _are actually the same hobby)
The baby boom effect of course means there were masses of teenagers in the 60s and 70s, and that there are masses of grey folk today
You can't entirely escape that. I'd add that in the UK there is a high level of social paranoia about children interacting with adults other than parents teachers and relatives (despite the statistics that show that it is those adults who are the commonest threat them, not 'the rest of us') and therefore today's young teenagers enjoy far less freedom than we did – and e.g. at age 10 – 16 (the age I started wargaming properly) are frequently not allowed to join the clubs I joined.
(The WSS Medieval naval game at Partizan) I informed myself about wargamimg and military history after school through the local library. In the UK local libraries are not likely to be open in the evenings today(and children are generally not allowed out the way we were)
So, in some way I guess you have to be a good deal older these days to get started (and more dependent on parental indulgence/leadership) – and otherwise you are in the market GW targets (so they are likely to get you first)
So blame the adults not the kids
But, as I say, I don't really buy the greying argument in the first place
Phil |
Spreewaldgurken | 23 Jul 2012 11:43 a.m. PST |
It is significant that all of those photos show very young children with their parents supervising them. In other words, they have been brought to the game by their fathers. As per the O.P. |
Yesthatphil | 23 Jul 2012 12:09 p.m. PST |
Actually, in 2 out of the 3 cases, they haven't been 'brought to the game by their fathers', but have brought their fathers to the game (because that is what they have to do these days
)
In the 3rd case I think you are right. I have plenty of similar photos of unaccompanied teenagers – but again I'm sure there would be some way in which they would make your point also. And plenty of players of indeterminate age lower than grey.
(a group of unaccompanied college kids playing our DBA game at Phalanx with Martin – in the pale long sleeves) It is part of my point that youngsters enjoy a lot less leisure independence than my generation did – so find it hard to get involved unless they can get their parents involved
For my part, unless I know the people involved, I find it much harder than you obviously do to sift out which are 'kids brought by dads' and which are 'dads brought by kids'.
(Chris chatting to some unaccompanied non-grey wargamers at the DBA Northern Cup earlier this year) What I do know is that if they are allowed access to military history and wargaming, youngsters and teenagers are just as interested in history as ever they were. Phil PS I am a friend of my local Museum and Art Gallery. We just won an award for involving young people in history projects at the Museum. As I say, I see no reduction in people's interest in history and military history – but providing access is a constant battle with budgets and commercial agendas
|
Defiance Games | 23 Jul 2012 1:24 p.m. PST |
I think there are two things going on here. There is discussion about the "greying" of the hobby and there is discussion of if and how kids are engaged in the hobby. The historical end of the hobby – given the type of products that are available – will never be something that appeals to "kids" (assuming you mean under 18 year olds)
however I could see that changing with the right type of introductory product that is primarily aimed at a 10-13 year old age group. From my experience, historical wargamers begin at earliest in their mid 20s and typically later. Maybe 30-40 years ago that was different as Airfix and other toy soldier products were more readily available at the high street/dime stores whereas today you'd be hard-pressed to find a box of toy soldiers in a Target or Walmart, or the like. So maybe in the past they started earlier – but now the movement into historical wargaming follows a new pattern: 1. 12 year old Kid finds Games Workshop and plays WHFB, 40K, or Lord of the Rings (or "discovers" tabletop gaming through one of the card games) 2. Kid gets older and either stays GW-focused or delves into other SF/fantasy games. 3. Kid discovers cars, girls, college – and probably gets away from any type of gaming for awhile (depends on the kid) 4. After college, Kid gets nostalgic for 40K or whatever he played and gets back into it 5. Through that experience Kid and the wonder of the Internet – discovers there is a wider wargaming hobby and finds a local shop or club to play. Club members introduce him to other historical games. I think this is how it mostly happens these days. Sure there are those who grow up with a father involved (or grandfather) – but most will get into historical gaming in their 20s or 30s after having been introduced to tabletop gaming from GW. That all said, friends of ours has a 10 year old son William who from the time he was 5 has been absolutely obsessed with toy soldiers. His father is not a wargamer or toy soldier collector nor is anyone else in his family. For Christmas he told me he really REALLY wanted to get some Eqyptians and maybe some Boer War. I was REALLY impressed. So I guess some historical wargamers are just born to it too. ;-) |
bong67 | 23 Jul 2012 3:43 p.m. PST |
Hi, I think we should be very wary of drawing accurate conclusions here. The growth of wargames activity on the internet means that it could seem like the situation is healthier than it is. There has been an explosion of commercialism and creativity in historical wargaming but a lot of this could be due to the internet widening the available customer base rather than new wargamers appearing. I'm in two of the Glasgow clubs. Both have a mixed membership in terms of age and both do a mix of games. However I would say that the club with the higher proportion of older members hosts more historical games and the club with the higher proportion of younger members hosts more SF and Fantasy games. Clubs are also not the be all or end all of wargaming as I still believe the majority of British wargamers are not members of former clubs. From my attendance at the major Scottish shows, I think that the wargaming fraternity is greying and I certainly don't see hordes of younger attendees. Most seem to be at least in their 30's or older. Of course, keraunos may be correct in saying that many new recruits to historical wargaming are from an older age bracket but this doesn't help the hobby to grow in the long term as it just increases the proportion of older wargamers. For the hobby to stay healthy and creative in the long term it needs to attract as many young people to it as possible to keep it sustainable in the long term and I don't think we are achieving this. For now, I think we are in the long golden summer of wargaming, but make no mistake, winter is coming! All the best, George. |
Defiance Games | 23 Jul 2012 4:31 p.m. PST |
I think there's something being missed here. Historical wargaming could grow and grow ever larger long term without a single new young person (whatever our definition of that is) added from here to eternity. It's just a hobby that appeals to guys (let's face it) who are 25+++ in the same way that "The Games Workshop Hobby" appeals to 12 year olds. For example, do you think the Chairman of Games Workshop is bemoaning the fact that they haven't expanded their player base in the 30-40 demographic this year? No – not at all – because they focus on 12 year olds entering for 4 years and then dropping out. There are plenty of examples of hobbies that continue to grow and thrive even when they are not driven by young people joining in. Think how many guys out there refurbish old cars. Would you say that the hobby of refurbishing old cars is dying because 16 year olds aren't doing it? How about home brewing? Surely that is on its death bed because no one under 21 is doing it! Maybe we should change the term the "greying OF the hobby" and just say that historical wargaming is a hobby for grey hairs? |
John Leahy | 23 Jul 2012 4:39 p.m. PST |
Ok, so 'what if' the Hobby is graying? I don't believe it is. In fact, I believe anecdotally that it is likely to stay the same or grow even more. Consider how few gamers there were in the 50's and 60's. If those gamers had children a percentage of who became gamers combined with others who were drawn into the hobby it would seem like gaming should be on the rise since your base should be growing. I believe a more relevant question would be whether gamers who introduce their kids to historical gaming along with those kids who discover it on their own do so in numbers equal to, more than or less so than in the 70's and 80's? Plus, how do those numbers compare to growth in the 70's and 80's? Then you could have some hard data. Thanks, John |
Militia Pete | 23 Jul 2012 7:09 p.m. PST |
I was fortunate to have a supportive Mother, Grandfather (he did not game but built me a canoe for my troops) and Grandmother (always cheering for the Germans in the background) I think as a almost 40 year old it takes support in what you like as a kid. My 4 year old wanted to play with Daddy's planes. Well, we have played a few games of WOW WW1 when she asks. She likes it. Soon, my son will be introduced (almost 3) but at the current time my daughter is my gaming partner. And if anyone else out there has a similar aged boy, look out in 12 years. My daughter has the thickest southern accent (and I am from NJ!) |
Early morning writer | 23 Jul 2012 8:45 p.m. PST |
The only people qualified to respond sensibly to this topic are the people selling the products and I'm betting most of them are too sensible to bother. They're busy selling to the young and the old – whoever has the dime. But it would be nice to hear from them. |
Crucible Orc | 23 Jul 2012 10:29 p.m. PST |
in hte mid 90s i got myself into wargaming, despite knowing no one who was. now that said, my father and grand father were modellers. but it was still at my insistence that i got my first miniature game(battle tech) for Christmas. by 2000 i had finished(and sold off) a ww2 28mm collection, and started a modern collection(which i still largely have). up until about 5 years ago i still did a lot of sci-fi and fantasy in addition to historical. these days I'm almost entirely historical. for about 3 years during the last decade i was the coordinator of a local convention, and for the 3 years following that i was the president of the (largely) historical club that rented a basement. I've been attending there (up until last year) twice a week (during regular club hours) during that time. in that time we did not get many new members. we got a few old people coming back. about 85% of the new membership were under the age of 25. Flash forward a year and I'm once again getting a new Historical gaming group going at the local store. i have 2 other guys committed, and probably half a dozen others have expressed an interest in playing. in this group I am the oldest by almost 5 yeas(and I'm 31) throughout my experience in miniature gaming, i have learned a few things. most people start gaming these day in fantasy and/or sci-fi. as these people mature, and as they do, A significant portion shift to historical. for some it's a cheap alternative, for others it's genuine historical curiosity(a fun way to learn about history). inevitably everyone leaves gaming for varying periods of time for varying reasons. but i also find most of those people also eventually come back to it in some fashion(in my experience) also, being a frequenter of the local store, i can see that , comepared to 20 years ago, there are way more kids getting into the hobby. when i started, i was there only one in a school of 500. when i got to high school, i was the only gamer in a school of 1000. now, at the local hobby store, there are entire groups of kids who all go to the same school. even if only 1 of them sticks with gaming and ends up doing historicals, that is at least maintaining the status quo from 19 years ago when i started. |
Keraunos | 23 Jul 2012 11:57 p.m. PST |
What I really fail to understand is the mindset that assumes that without teenage players the hobby will die. its total nonesense. It is adults playing who drive the hobby at every level (even the silly fantasy stuff). Kids are interested in new things with mega power abilities. Even in historical wargaming, they always want to play with tiger tanks or Spartiates or Old Guard grenadiers – if its elite (and preferably the same basic shape and size as a professional wrestler), then they like that please. – WW1 Dog fights they always want the red triplane or biggles camel or the other late war hero stuff, never the two seater or the DH 9 that is the mission target. And all but the least sociable will drop 90% of it when they discover girls, high school sports, beer and / or parties. but when they are adults, then the spark of interest is ready to be fired gain – and usually thats a basic interest in history which has them stop at the model store on the way past just to look in. Look at how we do our recruitment through shows. There are a token number of participation games which are so simple as to be accessible to any kid with 5 minutes expanation, but ask the show organisers, and they agree these are only there to keep the kids happy while dad goes shopping, and they are far more interested in putting prominence on the really big demo games. The games folk put real effort into putting on are aimed at adults, because that is who the players want to attact in to play with regularly. So sure, having the kids bring dad to the soldiers is great, but the target audience is still dad. Ask yourself how manuy kids have the patience to prepare a 150 figure army before they can start playing, and you will soon see why historical wargaming is a hobby for adults. 20 or so figure games, thats the level kids can participate in – which is a level that makes a lot of money, becuase it can accept a high churn and a high level of impulse buying, but its not a level that sustains a long term commitment from a player who puts effort in. |
Prince Rupert of the Rhine | 24 Jul 2012 2:02 a.m. PST |
Ask yourself how manuy kids have the patience to prepare a 150 figure army before they can start playing, and you will soon see why historical wargaming is a hobby for adults. I know plenty of adult gamers who don't have the patience to finish a 150 figure army
including myself :) |
OSchmidt | 24 Jul 2012 5:13 a.m. PST |
Let me try and put this into context. I also am an avid model railroader and go to model railroader shows and conventions. When you walk in the door, it's the same people. In some cases it is LITERALLY the same people (they are also gamers) but it's generally a middle-aged older guys hobby with a sprinkling of kids. They too have these long angst-hand wrining, breast beating sessions about "the graying of the hobby." Yet- the go on. They're also much bigger than we are. |
Yesthatphil | 24 Jul 2012 5:31 a.m. PST |
Without in any sense wanting to be argumentative (wargamers cherish their myths, and arguing the case is usually unproductive) I am facinated by how people perceive this topic (which is usually from their own perspective)
If you look at pictures from my hobby in the 60s
link or, say, link
You mostly see men in their 40s or 50s with a sprinkling of young teenagers, kids and 20 somethings. Much as you see today. Doubtless, because of the demographic and leisure changes of the 80s and 90s, the thirtysomethings took over from the fiftysomethings. I got more involved running the Society of Ancients as a thirtysomething as my generation took over from the fiftysomethings – and recently I have stepped down as a youthful :) fiftysomething. This is just history repeating itself. When I look round heritage events, I see loads of young people. And archaeology clubs are doing well. If you ask most kids which they prefer, Romans or Goblins, they'd say Romans
but the High Street markets them Goblins (so, OK, they have to grow through that, just like they have to grow through wanting high profile branded training shoes and happy meals)
People on this forum take the distractions of GW too seriously. I doubt my hobby is greying any more than society is greying. |
Aksakal | 24 Jul 2012 5:46 a.m. PST |
People play with their peers. What, you hang out with old people, yuck! You play with kids, call the cops! I hope some of the people in the photos earlier have taken up a gym membership and lost weight, else their children lament a parents early passing. This is a bigger problem in gaming than greying. |
Gwydion | 24 Jul 2012 6:28 a.m. PST |
Oh go on Phil, let's be argumentative! I think the 60s demographic actually points up the aging population of current wargamers quite well. In the 70s – Northern Militaire, Derby, Stockport, Sheffield Triples, Leeds, when I walked in, all I saw were one or two older generation – 40+, a sprinkling of 30+ and a mass of teenagers and 20 year olds (self included). The hobby had expanded exponentially as a result of the usual suspects in the 60s. Whilst those usual suspects were still around, they were swamped by spotty youth with increasing disposable income. This is, as you predict, entirely from my own perspective – (except when I look in wargame magazines of the era- Battle for Wargamers etc- I see exactly what I remember). Sure, the well produced books by the doyens of the genre feature (where they feature any pics of people) people of a more mature age – they had the cash and clout to get the books published – publishing was a very different world then than now. The magazines however tend to show a much younger demographic. Not perhaps so much where they feature pictures of acknowledged 'experts' leaning weightily over some stricken table, but in the photo reports of meetings and conventions. I see young people at shows now – but the mean age has shifted decisively upwards in my perception. You couldn't have continued the growth in youth involvement of the late 60s early 70s easily. And where it has continued at the same level, it has (without any value judgement at all) been neatly diverted (for its youthful years at any rate) into GW etc. I was reluctant to be so argumentative (well okay not really, but you have to make the effort
) because it bothers me not one jot whether the average age in the hobby (however we define that beast) is rising or not. The question is of supreme indifference to me. I cannot however,with hand on heart, say that I see the influx of youth that expanded the hobby in the early 70s replenishing its numbers now. I am not saying the hobby is shrinking necessarily, but with the cost of figures, the economic and social uncertainty in the UK and the competing sirens of computer gaming and GW, recruitment is perhaps occurring at a later age. I am glad youngsters love Romans over goblins, attend museums and archaelogy clubs. I doesn't however make them wargamers. (Sorry about the two deletes-another post got crossed into the mix somehow!) |
Ed the Two Hour Wargames guy | 24 Jul 2012 7:14 a.m. PST |
It is significant that all of those photos show very young children with their parents supervising them. In other words, they have been brought to the game by their fathers. Recruits Mini Convention – Great convention and attended my mostly teenagers and young age group. In other words they probably drove themselves. recruits.mtswebsites.com "But that's the exception
" Yeah right, whatever. If you have a hammer you only see nails. Princeps was spot on it's an instant gratification generation. FYI – As there's more baby boomers than any other gen at this moment EVERYTHING is greying. |
Patrick Sexton | 24 Jul 2012 9:08 a.m. PST |
All I will say is that I am glad we live in an age where we do not have to wear a suit and tie when we game. :) |
(Phil Dutre) | 24 Jul 2012 9:11 a.m. PST |
I don't know whether this is a problem at all. I will not reiterate what many have said above, but would like to add one more point: There will always be geeky teenagers attracted to gaming as a hobby. In the 60s, gaming meant historical wargaming (miniatures and/or board). In the 70s and 80s, gaming meant D&D. In the 90s, it was MtG. In the 2000s, it's euro boardgames. There's always a particular gaming genre that is the forerunner in attracting gamers to the wider gaming hobby. Not to mention computer gaming in all its forms
Historical (miniatures) wargaming happened to be at the right place in the 60s and 70s to attract teenagers interested in the geeky gaming underground culture. I do think that many youngsters were attracted to miniature gaming simply because there was no alternative. The young people that would have been miniature wargamers in the 70s are now playing euro boardgames. Of course, this assumes that most wargamers came to wargaming primarily because of the gaming aspect, not so much the history aspect. I do believe that's a valid assumption. I also don't care about this perceived greying of the hobby. If wargaming ends as a hobby on April 22 2036 when the last wargamer rolls his precious D6 for the last time, so be it. Then we can say we all had a fun time, as much as other weird hobbies that died out during past years were a fun passtime for those involved. |
(Phil Dutre) | 24 Jul 2012 9:34 a.m. PST |
All I will say is that I am glad we live in an age where we do not have to wear a suit and tie when we game. If you look at the average outfit wargamers are wearing at cons, I almost wished we would go back to suits and ties. And black tie for evening games, of course. BTW, wargaming doesn't seem to be listed: link |
Gwydion | 24 Jul 2012 10:23 a.m. PST |
I think you'll find there was quite a sensible dress code: link |
PatrickWR | 24 Jul 2012 1:49 p.m. PST |
As long as little boys play with those green plastic army men, there will be hope for the hobby. That's how I got started. |
arthur1815 | 24 Jul 2012 2:15 p.m. PST |
When Bill Leeson and I presented kriegsspiel participation games – in the good old days when Salute was held in Kensington – we always made a point of dressing formally to make the point that we, the umpires, were 'in charge' of the games. Personally, I would have liked Prussian Artillery uniforms circa 1825, but the budget wouldn't run to it
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pbishop12 | 05 Aug 2012 4:34 a.m. PST |
I'm 62. I've been wargaming or playing with soldiers since early boyhood. My 2 brothers and i could play all day, and mix our army men together for 'big' fights. A couple of teenage friends and a cousin would game also. Primitive rule sets by today's standards, but equal fun. I took a hiatus in 1968, age 18. Tet Offensive, Uncle Sam knocked. He knocked on every door in my town on Long Island, and every teenage boy I knew donned a uniform. My brothers followed soon. I stayed in uniform for 21+ years. At age 26 I took my Welsh wife home on holiday and found the hard plastic Waterloo wargame. Carted that thing back to Greece and instantly a buddy got hooked with me. We found more 20MM Napoleonics to build Grouchy's wing, and enough to put out the Prussians. Rules, again, were primitive. We were in our mid to late 20s. An assignment to the UK in 1979 hooked me. I ran into some Brits playing a huge game in Milton Keynes, and that was it. Looking back, I'd say most of us were in our 20s or 30s. Not a point I analyzed. It just was.. Finally semi-settling down in Texas in 1990, I reached out to find other gamers. I was spoiled in the UK. But they were there. Looking back, I guess most were in their 30s or like myself, in the 40s. Never gave it a thougth then either. My closest friends at home in Houston don't game. They think the collection and table set ups are cool, but have no interest. My gaming freinds just happened to be separate from my other social friends. I game mostly solo now anyway. Life just went that way; not intentional. But solo or in a crowd, it gives me great pleasure. If my opponent was 6 or 106, i couldnt care. Considering I game 28MM Napoleonics, its an expensive hobby just to put together an army. Time consuming, and it needs space. Not many younger folks have that. Like all young men, regardless of when you lived, its girls, cars, sports,beer and other testosterone expending activities. Actually, if I met a group of 20 year old young men with a large focus on miniature gaming, I'd wonder about them. Almost unhealthy.. Like a previous comment above, if the hobby abrubtly died in 2036, I wouldn't care. it gave me a life time of pleasure. And whether I'm in my gameroom playng solo, or some hall playing with a band of teenagers, I could care less. Maybe it is a graying hobby. i was good at track and field, swimming, stick-ball in the courtyard, ice hockey, canoeing and a host of other activities. Had a gazillion girl friends as a young man. And a career in uniform, 2 marriages, jobss etc. No time or left over $$s for toy soldeirs. And where I am now, perhaps it is a 'graying hobby' for me. I'm having fun. If the kid down the block is not interested, I hope he's interested in cars, girls, beer, sports, and doing well in school. |
John D Salt | 05 Aug 2012 12:33 p.m. PST |
The group I started wargaming with in Horsham at age 11 still meet at least twice a year to push tanks, troops or ships around, and we are now in our fifties. A pal of mine has for some while now been developing a rahter nice-looking set of 54mm Napoleonic plastics, for use on the lawn, inspired by the photographic illustrations of "the wargame in the open air" in Wells' "Little Wars". We are getting bit creaky for all the kneeling required, but a few years ago we took the 54mm stuff along as a demonstration game to the Redoubt for the club show at Eastbourne. It was supposed to be a demonstration game, not participation. It turned into a particiaption game when a bunch of kids asked if they could play. Some were as young as 8, and some were "the better sort of girl who enjoys boy's games and books". It all came as rather a shock to us middle-aged men. Kids these days play with toy soldiers? Who'd have thought it? All the best, John. |
arthur1815 | 05 Aug 2012 3:42 p.m. PST |
That's good to hear, John. I think most children today have little interest in history, but they enjoy the sort of 'hands on' game that HG Wells devised, rather than the more cerebral complex rules and calculations/charts type of thing. Perhaps arming yourselves with those mechanical claws on sticks [don't know what they are called!] would spare your knees. I suffered a severe bout of bursitis after accidentally kneeling on my then five year old son's wooden Thomas the Tank Engine raily layout
Best wishes, Arthur |
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