"Oh No! Not another Black Powder basing question!!" Topic

In the rules, the basing convention written about in page 13, as I understand it, is that standard size units can have as many figures as the gamer wishes, as long as they occupy the same frontage, correct? They have, as an example, a per figure width of 20mm and a depth of 20mm, in effect having four figures in two ranks on a 40mmx40mm.

Using this guide I want to make my French into six stands, one stand per company, a total of 24 figures in a frontage of 240mm

Here's my dilemma, I want to do my 1812 Russians into four companies, 32 figures, would putting these on a 60mmx40mm be the correct way of keeping the frontage correct (as I understand it)? I might actually use 6 figures on a stand to economize,making it 24 figures as well, and maybe using two 30mmx40mm bases to denote the Grenadiers from the Strelski, I dunno yet.

May I trouble those of you with more esperience with these rules for some guidance?

Thanks,
Abel

standard size units can have as many figures as the gamer wishes, as long as they occupy the same frontage, correct?

Correct.

They have, as an example, a per figure width of 20mm and a depth of 20mm, in effect having four figures in two ranks on a 40mmx40mm.

Not necessarily, but that is a common basing convention for 28mm figures.

I want to do my 1812 Russians into four companies, 32 figures, would putting these on a 60mmx40mm be the correct way of keeping the frontage correct (as I understand it)?

That is one way of doing it, though it is not "the correct way". There is no "correct way".

Having said that if a standard size unit is 24 figures, then I would be inclined to treat a 32 figure unit as a "large" unit under BP.

Here's your problem with that approach.
In round numbers a full strength French battalion had about 840 rank and file, whilst the Russian full strength battalion had about 720 rank and file. Assuming similar attrition, this would mean that the typical French battalion in the field was larger than the typical Russian battalion. Obviously there will always be exceptions.
But the method you have chosen makes the Russian battalion significantly larger than the French battalion.
It might be better to either, increase your French battalion to six stands of six figures, or reduce the Russian battalion to four stands of six. In the former case the French are then typically larger than their foes, and in the latter case, they are equal. This latter case was probably more historically accurate during the Russian campaign, as the Russians were fighting on home turf, and could supply, feed, and reinforce their units better than the French, could or did, which tended to equate to unequal attrition.
Just my thoughts

npm

I have to agree with Ligniere,your Russian battalions are way to big.Useing a standard battalion of 24 figs works a lot better for all except the Austrians who need to be larger.
Now…some folks will get huffy about a russian battalion in 4 stands of 6 figs….how do you tell march column from attack column???? .I wanted to build some german battalions of 4 companies (differant nations) ,but got a lot of flank from my local group about frontages and columns and so on,,,,so just settled for 6 stand of 4 and ws done with it.

Boy, am I glad I asked! I'd forgotten about the formations!! Decisions, decisions…

With the French, where companies have different coloured bobble-hats there is some importance in basing them collectively. I fudge it for everyone else (shock-horror) as I feel that BP places you above the level where you should be worried about individual companies.

My French line are 5 stands of 4 on 40x40mm and two stands of 2 on 40x20mm. This allows the high voltage chappies to be deployed in accordance with the rules.

My British line are based the same, with a 40x40 for the Grenadiers and two bases for the light company – this means I have the wrong ratio but that they work like a Bn should.

British guard are 8 bases of 4 on 40x40 and 2 bases of 2 on 40x20 – closer ratios to reality than the line but still work in the rules.

I combine my Portugeuse battalions into a single regiment, sized exactly as the British guards – I include a few British 'NCOs' and Officers, more from a jingoistic modelling point of view than anything else!

All of my light units (French Legere, French Dragoons acting as infantry battalions, British lights, British Rifles…) are based 2 figures to a 50x25mm base, it makes them a bit bigger, but reminds us that they can skirmish at will (and is more viually pleasing when you create a skirmish line).

Apart from the French, none of these really reflect 'companies' (and then only because the variety of bobble hats luckily matches the number of bases). They do, however, mean that my battalions work well as they would be expected to under the rules.

My advice is simply to not sweat it! 32 is a perfectly sensible number for a 'Standard' Russian Bn, most of my mates have done theirs as 32's. (I'm a 36 man meself, call me a bluff old traditionalist if you will!)

The main thing is that the frontage of the unit does not differ too wildly from either a 24 man unit or a 36 man unit. But anything on a scale between a frontage of 20mm per figure for smaller units to 15mm per figure for larger units is fine, and you can tell anyone who tells you other wise to go take a running jump, they don't deserve to play Black Powder with other Gentlemen….

link

As Sparker says Black Powder units don't have to be the same frontage. The rules were designed so armys based for different rule systems could still play together. So close enough is good enough.
I use units of 24 for my French as well. Two ranks of 12 for line. 4 ranks of 6 for battle column and 6 ranks of 4 for march column. The Austrians are often larger with 32.

Thanks to all of you for your input! It's given me some confidence in my choices!

As others have said this is personal choice.
This is how I base, for large units I add 1 or 2 2/4 figure bases for smaller I remove 1 or 2.

Napoleonic cavalry based in 6 pairs – 50mm frontage by 50mm deep

Napoleonic infantry based in 6 lots of 4 figures (2 front, 2 back) on bases 30mm frontage by 40mm deep. To me this looks ok, I find basing of 40x40 too open for my taste.
Where a unit has skirmishers I base 4 figures individually on 15mm x 20mm bases so they can be deployed in skirmish line, and then recalled into formation as required.
As Blackpowder rules are for games and not simulations I don't see the need to worry about actual unit strengths.
I am however unsure about basing artillery, do I base the gun and crew, or individually base the crew?

For artillery, the crew are based on the artillery base. Your post is so old, you probably already know this, but just in case, there you go.

Mekinock,

They are all games. Many of them do a much worse job of simulating the level if command and the correct degree of control they purport to.

:-) Adam

"whilst the Russian full strength battalion had about 720 rank and file."

For the period after 1810, actually less.

A company had 165 combattant soldiers below the rank of corporal (literally "rankers" in Russian) at full war-time strength.
Of these, 3 (4 in grenadier and guard companies) were actually un-armed commissaries, 3 (0 in jäger battalions, 4 in 2nd grenadier companies) were detached to the battalion banner group, 6 were designated as vice-under-officer or "efreytor" and did not form in the ranks, and a couple more might be detailed as messengers or wagon guards or extra hands for moving the wounded.

So, the wartime full-strength Russian platoon was really 3 ranks each of 25 files of soldiers. It would be rare to have all 25 files, and even the tactics/drill manuals were illustrated for 24 files of soldiers per platoon. there were 8 platoons per battalion, except …. a combined grenadier battalion, or a 2nd or "replacement" battalion taking the field (without their grenadiers) and a 4th or "recruit" battalion would be only 6 platoons. The last of these were not used for action with the enemy, only the movement and training of recruits.

There were some oddities, like the non-standard reserve companies pulled together at the depots of the guards infantry that were combined into a sort of provisional regiment and sent into the field in late 1812. I do not know, from memory, exactly how these formed.

There did exist some special cases of over-size battalions, most notably the elements of the 6th and 21st Infantry division that were sent from the Finnish Corps. There were also some large reserve battalions of recruits that were made up over-size in anticipation of losses while marching to join the army. I think there were also some local home-defense units raised in Vyborg and Karelia that were over-sized. Militia or "opolchenie" formations were also to some extent non-standard, but did never, to my recollection, arrive in contact with the enemy with over-sized battalions (or equivalent).

Russian regiments had quite a few non-combattant lower ranks, as many logistical and support functions were "pushed down" to the regiments and even companies. So, it is easy to see why a higher number of soldiers in the ranks gets reported in some sources.

- Sasha

P.S. "strelki" for стрелки might be good for the second elite Russian platoon, in addition to the grenadier platoon, in each battalion …. and as opposed to "zastrel'shchiki" for застрельщики, the 2 or 4 flanking files of a platoon that could be detached as skirmishers.

Somebody added the average strength of a French battalion in all the major campaigns and came up with a 540 man average. Just fyi.

Great discussion abelp01. I'm building 1809 French, Bavarian and Austrians in 15mm. As Adam said I'm doing my French at four stands of 8 on 40x40mm and two stands of 4 on 40x20mm.

What should the Bavarians and Austrians look like? planned on the Austrians at eight stands of 8 on 40x40mm with no skirmishers. What should the Grenz look like?

G'Day Abel et al,

If I may be so bold…in lieu of mounting your figures by companies…mount them by platoon…peloton…or…zug…

As an example:

Russian and French have 8 platoons with a maximum width of two platoons while in column…as do Prussians in 1812.

The French then go to 6 pelotons in 1808. therefore if you use the correct number of platoons, you will always have a correct frontage.

Not quite certain what a march column is compared to an attack column…in regards to width…they should be the same…both can have a single or double platoon frontage

Best Regards
Art