"The Great Game 1899(Is this too ludicrous?)" Topic

I have come up with an interesting idea for a new project to work on in between my Successors and French Revoloutionary Wars projects and i would like to hear what the many learned gentlemen on this site make of it.
The idea is as follows

The British Empire is distracted by the events in South Africa and those dastardly Russians take advantage of this and launch an invasion of British India through Afghanistan.
Australian troops on their way to the war in South Africa are now redeployed to Central Asia.
What i am planning to do is to use my wip desert board for some Duffers Drift style skirmish scenarios with a Troop of Australian Mounted Rifles who are tasked with holding a river crossing like the hapless Lt Backsight Forethought and his platoon.The Russians will of course play the role of the villainous Boer Kommando and try to capture the ford.

So what do you make of this?
And could anyone recommend any 28mm scale Australians for this.

Imperial Yeomanry with slouch hats?

No, not too ludicrous. Fears of exactly what you're proposing were taken quite seriously by the Imperial General Staff in Victorian times, and hopes of enacting the same by their Tsarist counterparts. In fact during the Crimean War the Russians came within a whisker of actually attempting it. Russian technical advisors or vacationing officers have been fun additions to TSATF scenarios I've played. Especially fun if they have a troop of cossacks with them.

Of course you may find the Russians have arrived in Afghanistan by dirigible or a fleet of hot-air balloons leading to an arms race in personal aerial conveyances. Some might find that too ludicrous.

This is -way- Cool!
may I crib your notes…?
I have been Playing w/ Tzarist Russia for the last year or so,
planning on a Steam-Punk version of the Russian Civil War…

I ha already Planned on fighting a steam-tech version of
the Russo-Japanese War (8 February 1904 – 5) as a
precursor to reviewing All the Great Wars of the 20th century,
and this dove-tails in quite nicely!

(For Those that object to Steam-Tech, allow me to explain:
As a Combat Veteran, I simply can _NOT_ play a Game
where I can easily envision Blood on the Ground: PTSD & all that-
Even One Fantasy element allows me to by-pass "the shakes"…

Dunno Why, but it's True. For Me at Least.
Even Flames of War:
Can't Play unless there is One Unit, at Least, representing
Cap'n America & Bucky or a Unit of Russian Bear Wranglers.)

Of course you may find the Russians have arrived in Afghanistan
by dirigible or a fleet of hot-air balloons leading to an arms race
in personal aerial conveyances.
Some might find that too ludicrous.

Not Me! Perfect!
Gives me a Reason to break Out my AeroNef….

DinnerDog2Zero-->
I have some Primary Source texts You may find useful:
Basically Russian versions of Osprey type books-
I'll scan them & put them in a FaceBook album:
If you are interested? 'Friend me at FB-> 'Thomas Diener'

If you don't do FB,
shoot me your email & I'll see If I can't get the scans to you..
FAir Use & All That, no copyrite infringement implied or intended:
You just can't _get_these Texts anymore, and Never outside of Russia,,,

Thanks Volstagg that sounds great but i dont have a Facebook page(may seem strange for a 17 year old australian not to be on facebook but im just not into taking photos of myself)
You can email me at russellw2200@hotmail.com

PS The Australians from Foundries Darkest Africa Range seem ideal. Any thoughts on these?

Of course it makes you wonder what happened to the Indian Army, which wasn't deployed to South Africa but it's your game. So if you want Australian horsemen vs Russians, why not?

It was my original plan to have an Indian force but since i am Australian i find it more interesting if Australians are the main feature however i do plan to include some indian troops.
Which leads me to another question which is does anyone make 28mm late 19th/early 20th century indian heavy machine guns or artillery?

My understanding is that the machineguns would have been fairly standard Vickers models, though still generally on carriage mounts like the Gatlings they replaced.

Finding the actual wepons themselves wont be a problem
but finding the actual weapon crews might prove more difficult

If you're doing skirmishes, Pulp Figures does a Sikh heavy weapons pack: link (as well as thugees, Sergeants 3 etc.).

Some of his other packs may supply some suitable characters too.

The Boer high command kept their men in the field throughout the war with lies about foreign intervention. One of the most widely employed tall tales was that the Russians would invade India, so it is not implausible in that sense.
Cronje even told his men that French, Germans and Russians had already landed in Delagoa Bay. Pity the poor, simple fools who believed all this and carried on fighting a pointless, unwinnable war.

Re. the Indian Army not being deployed to South Africa.
Not entirely true. Indian troops (other than water carriers etc) were not deployed to South Africa, but huge numbers of British troops of the Indian Army were.

So it is not implausible that the government would divert some 'white' troops there to fill the gaps that this had caused.

A good idea.
I wish I had some Aussies come to think of it.
Here are some of my Russians in a psuedo NW Frontier setting.
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link
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link
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link
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link
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link
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My Russians are Tiger Miniatures Bulgarians sold by Recreational Conflict in the USA.
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Good luck and go for it,
Bill

Sounds like a fine idea to me. Just a couple of things… first, probably more appropriate to use Maxim machine guns than the Vickers version, which I believe began service around 1912. Second… while the Tiger Miniatures Bulgarians are nice, you mmight also check out the 1905 Russo-Japanese War Russians sculpted by Paul Hicks, available from a small company called Tsuba Miniatures, which IMHO are strikingly beautiful figures. Here's a LINK:

tsuba-miniatures.blogspot.com

The old reliable Wargames Foundry and/or Old Glory Indian mountain gun artillery sets will work well, or if you want to go with a somewhat more modern, WWI look, Brigade Games and Copplestone Castings both have ranges featuring Indian artillery and MGs (of the Vickers variety).

Last but not least: consider recruiting a handful of Gurkhas to serve as local frontier scouts/guides for your Aussies!

The main reason behind this idea was that i had a few Brigade Games Russians lying around and decided to start a project where i could use them.
Including Gurkhas as scouts is something i never thought of but i was planning to include some Afghan Tribesmen as guides/scouts for both sides.

Ok, what are the visible external differences between the Maxim and the Vickers?

wikipedia doesn't get into it, other than mentioning a muzzle booster, and I don't have any other references to-hand.

Both names cover a variety of weapons, but the 'classic' Maxim generally had a smooth, cylindrical jacket over the barrel made of (I think) brass? Or some sort of alloy that was shiny. The Vickers of the 1st and 2nd world war was water cooled and had a jacket over the barrel which had sort of grooves / indentations running along its length. I also think these jackets were generally painted matt green.

This is all from memory, so pedants are welcome to chip in.

I am essentially describing the Maxim machine guns from the Matabele War and the Vickers .303 which the British used in the World Wars and up to the 1960s.

They look a bit similar but also pretty different. Vickers is water cooled, with a hose connecting the gun to a water jug. IMHO the Maxim looks like a weapon of late 19th Century/turn of the Century imperialst conquest, while the Vickers looks like it belongs in the trenches of the Western Front in WWI, the North African desert in WWII, and myriad post-war conflicts from the Israeli war for Independence, to the Congo in the '60s, etc., etc. It was still being used by the British army in Aden, in 1963-'67.

Maxim:

Vickers:

DinnerDog2Zero, sorry, never meant to derail your thread! Not sure if you know, but the Third Anglo-Afghan War took place in 1919, with the British on the NWF employing air power and armored cars. If you proceed with this project, by the time you're done, you might be able to fight that one in miniature too. If so, you can definitely use Vickers machine guns:

Mad Guru

But there wasn't just one 'Maxim gun'. The picture you have posted really does look frightfully quaint (!) but the war museum in Johannesburg has one which looks lot more like the Vickers gun you posted. Just with a brass (?) barrel sleeve.

link

I'm not sure how to post photos on here, but the link above shows pictures of a 1895 Maxim that looks a lot more businesslike.

And here's one to a photo of the Vickers gun with it's funny 'grooved' cooling jacket:

fakebook.thetrailnut.com/?p=25

BullDog69, you are completely correct. There are many versions of the Maxim MG, up to and including those used in the Russian Civil War, some of which look a lot more like Vickers MGs. In fact, Vickers took over Maxim, and there are the interim models called the "Maxim-Vickers" gun.

I fully agree it's just my own humble opinion, but to me, Maxim Guns say "late 19th Century colonialism." while Vickers MGs say "Western Front," "Western Desert," and post-WWII African & Middle-Eastern conflicts of the Fifties & Sixties. No one else need agree!

@DinnerDog2Zero: whatever you end up using as support weapons, if you do proceed with this project, please post some pics of your troops!

You don't even have to go to Afghanistan or the Khyber. How about a scenario wherein a Russian and British (or French, or German) force clash in China in a territorial dispute over a treaty enclave ceded by the local crazy Chinese warlord??

The reason i chose the Afghan setting was so i could have another use for the desert board that i am currently working on.

Maxim Guns say "late 19th Century colonialism." while Vickers MGs say "Western Front," "Western Desert," and post-WWII African & Middle-Eastern conflicts of the Fifties & Sixties.

My opinion Exactly.

@DinnerDog2Zero: whatever you end up using as support weapons, if you do proceed with this project, please post some pics of your troops!

This project will definitely proceed but it remains to be seen how far it will go. In between the aforementioned Successor and French Revoloutionary Wars projects,a 1:350 scale model IJN Mikasa that needs to be completed, School, Rugby, Assorted social commitments and other real life affairs, i have a limited amount of time to spend on this.
And since i am planning to join the Defence Forces when i get out of school this is probably one of the last years when im going to have time for my beloved historical wargaming hobby(which in a way is kind of depressing).

However you can expect some pics in the next few months(although my painting skills are average at best)

Mad Guru

Please don't think I was trying to 'prove you wrong' – that was by no means my intention as I completely agree that the earlier Maxims look very old-fashioned and, frankly, a bit silly. I was merely basing my comments on the Maxims used in the Matabele War.

But I totally agree that the Vickers Gun is a solid and businesslike looking thing that screams: 'WW1 trench warfare'

Does anyone have an opinion or know of any reviews for these
link
Or these
link
Cant seem to find much in regards to their quality

DinnerDog, didn't you say you had a few of those Brigade Games Russians lying around yourself? They look fine to me, though I must reiterate, the new Tsuba Russo-Japanese War figures kind of blow my mind, in a good way!

With regard to the Wargames Foundry Aussies… you are very young -- and congrats and best of luck with all your upcoming and exciting projects -- but your youth may make you less familiar with Wargames Foundry than your more mature colleagues here, like myself!

IMHO Wargames Foundry was one of, if not THE company for historical 28mm figures, from the mid-'90s to maybe 5 or 6 years ago. They had many of the world's best sculptors working for them -- people like the Perry brothers, and Mark Copplestone. But their stock as a historical miniiatures company has fallen a great deal over the past decade, for a number of reasons, including steep price increases, a near-maddening "you can only buy figures in the pre-arranged packs we put them into" policy, near-usurous international money-changing practices (the British Pound was always worth substantially more on the Foundry site than anywhere else on earth at the time you were purchasing their figures from overseas!), and a policy of inexplicably rotating historical ranges in and our of availability.

Still, even with all that being said, they have some of the world's nicest colonial miniatures, including IMHO the best NWF tribesmen, and the only near complete range of Afghan Regulars for the later 19th Century. Plus a great Sikh Wars and nice Indian Mutiny range as well.

They appear to have recently "come to their senses" (this was literally less than a month ago) re: many of the less appealing policies outlined above, for instance they changed their international pricing so if you're buying from the USA or Australia you can pay the legit equivalent of the UK British Pounds price in your home currency, and they've also made more historical ranges available, and said they will no longer be "rotating" them out of availability from time to time.

IMHO the Boer War range those Aussie Infantry figures come from is not the finest of their colonial ranges (it wasn't sculpted by the Perrys) but it's still very good. I use that range's Royal Horse Artillery galloping limbers for my own NWF/Afghan RHA batteries.

Foundry's Indian army troops are terrific, especially the Guides and Sikhs, all of which were designed by the Perrys.

Size-wise, these days they stack up on the smaller side of 28mm, though their Darkest Africa range, sculpted by Mark Copplestone, is a bit bigger, and the many excellent British officer figures from it can easily stand side-by-side with Perry or Empress, and other more recent, somewhat larger, 28mm figures.

Not sure if you've ever visited, but you might enjoy checking out MaiwandDay.blogspot.com -- a blog of mine which has a lot of pics of NWF/Afghan brits, Indians, and native foes -- though no Aussies or Russians, at least not yet!

I thought that the miniatures in the first link were made by a diffirent manufacturer and just sold by Brigade Games but futher reasearch has revealed that Brigade Games makes them as well so their quality should be more than adequate. The Tsuba miniatures range looks amazing and i will try to obtain some in the near future.

Regarding the Foundry Aussies i was aware that foundry has a very mixed reputation which made me reluctant to purchase anything from them but if they are improving then i might consider ordering some.

I also forgot to mention that the brilliant terrain on your blog was one of the main inspirations behind the desert board i am working on.
Thanks for all the advice.

Dude, that's awesome, you just put a smile on my face and made my day! No pressure, but when the time comes I hope you put up some pics of that desert terrain board too.

Yay i made someone happy!
The Battalion of slovenly Frenchmen that has been the main focus of my painting time since november of last year is finally nearing completion so when that is done i will start painting some Russians.
The desert board is progressing steadily so it might be photo worthy in a few weeks.